CNN held a discussion on religion on Sunday night at Messiah College – A Nationally-Ranked Christian College founded by the Brethren in Christ church and located in Grantham, Pennsylvania.
Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama attended. John McCain said he had a scheduling conflict although his schedule reported that he was home in Arizona and would travel to his other home in Washington D.C. that day.
Both Clinton and Obama presented themselves well in a provocative discussion of faith.
Again, McCain was invited by the college and CNN but did not attend.
In a discussion which followed with John King of CNN and a panel of other guests it was revealed that although John McCain was brought up in the Episcopal Church and now is a Baptist that John McCain has NEVER been baptized.
To put it bluntly, you cannot be a Christian – a follower of Christ – and not be baptized. Even the New Testament reveals that Jesus Himself was baptized by John The Baptist.
John McCain maybe a decent, moral and honorable man but he cannot be a Christian without being baptized in any one of the Christian denominations.
Please correct me if someone can document that John McCain has been baptized. Until then he has no standing to judge either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama’s Christian faith.
peter-porcupine says
pj says
Sorry, but I am not a lapsed Christian.
Baptism is the entrance to Christianity. I didn’t make the rules only reporting them. Don’t shoot the messenger.
So, McCain can call himself a Christian or an eggplant but that doesn’t make him either. Strange, that as an Episcopal he was never baptised. BTW his new wife if Roman Catholic.
cannoneo says
Lots of Protestants claim that if you don’t “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” (based on a specific experience of conversion and with a specific meaning) then you can’t call yourself a Christian.
mcrd says
governed by rules, regulations and protocol that McCain was not batized. As a matter of fact, I would assume that he was baptized until someone provides tangible eveidence otherwise, and I really don’t give a damn if he was or wasn’t anyway. Christianity is a state of mind, unencumbered by the ritualism of any denomination. A God Bless John the Baptist, but it’s a stretch for me to believe that God would shun anyone that didn’t have water sprinkled on their head.
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p>But what would I know?
christopher says
The institutional documentation, such as baptism or confirmation, is well and good. However, I would argue that it is the heart that makes one truly Christian. If he attends church regularly, adheres to the faith and, most importantly, acts like a Christian in his everyday life I would say he is Christian or at least close enough. BTW, I have not heard McCain judge the faith of Clinton or Obama. That would, after all, be unchristian.
chriswagner says
possibly provide a link to a video or transcript of the exchange?
tblade says
And are you God? You don’t get to make up the rules on who gets to be Christian and who doesn’t. I’d like to see where it says in the Bible that a prerequisite to Christianity is baptism.
pj says
Well, Exxxxxxxxxxxxxxcuse me. Jesus Himself, although he was without what we Catholics call “original sin”, required Himself to be baptized by John The Baptist. Again, I didn’t make the rules only reporting them. Take it up with Jesus.
Do you know His number ? đŸ˜‰
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p>Baptism, for Christians, remove sacramentally that original sin and opens the way to receive other sacramental rites. This does not mean that others who do not profess to be Christians would be denied whatever form of eternal life they may envision. Only, that to be a follower of Jesus we follow His path and try – most of us very badly – to follow His teachings. I will not and have not presumed that John McCain is anything but a good and moral individual. Just noting an odd omission on his Christian way. Note too, that many Protestant faiths do not have baptism until one is an adult. As to Roman Catholics, I believe that if a person converts from another Christian denomination to Catholicism and they were previously baptised in that denomination it is not required that they be “re-baptised”. Believe that some other denominations do require that however.
they says
from the convention website:
regularjoe says
was a Christian? I always heard that he was a Jew.
dcsohl says
From my own personal bible, Wikipedia: “Some Christian groups assert baptism is a requirement for salvation and a sacrament […] By contrast, evangelical and fundamentalist Protestant groups recognize baptism as an act of obedience to and identity with Jesus as the Christ. They say that baptism has no sacramental (saving) power, and only testifies outwardly to the invisible and internal operation of God’s power, which is completely separate from the rite itself.” (emphasis mine)
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p>Please note I’m not saying anything about McCain (as I know that the Episcopal church more or less follows your way of thinking in this); I’m just addressing your more general point about the role of baptism in various sects of Christianity.
laurel says
it seems likely to me that he deliberately stayed away because he feared he would say something that offended even more of the fundamentalist extremists that he has been courting. it is likely that both clinton and obama would have come off looking more genuinely religious than he, so it was in his best interest to hide at home.
they says
No doubt the hypocrites would have looked more religious, they always do. He was at home? That’s exactly where he should have been, where no one can see him pray.
laurel says
are you just embellishing the truth and convicting by accusation?
laurel says
been reading too much natural history lately…
they says
or elitist. One or the other.
david says
Get with the times, dude. That’s, like, last WEEK.
laurel says
therefore it should have accused me of being SHRILL or a BITCH. get with the program, they, and pitch the candidate-appropriate defamations!
they says
stomv says
video mostly OK, and funny, but a little warning is helpful in the future.
laurel says
rape is never funny. and the homophobic implications of this particular “joke” are unmistakable.
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p>so they, by replying to David’s post with this video you’re implying that he’s a demon sodomite? more conviction by accusation? looks like.
they says
Me and my friends thought this movie was really funny, and we absorbed the way the Devil (played by Dave Grohl, incidentally) shouts “Fuuuuuck!” really loud when he has to do something he doesn’t want to. So we shout Fuuuuuck really loud when we miss a traffic light or something like that, it’s fun and cathartic and it reminds us that it’s really not so bad. So, when David told me that the words bitter and elitist were last week, my reaction was “Fuuuuck!” I’ve been defeated by some technicality! And I found that video. The stuff about being raped by the Devil had nothing to do with my posting it, I’d forgotten that stuff.
peter-porcupine says
I’m gladder than ever I didn’t watch the video.
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p>OTOH, I AM getting old….
farnkoff says
Eventually, if the GOP keeps going the way it’s going, I think they will have to embrace pure secularism. How long can the party of warmongering, torture, greed, and hatred pretend to believe in a just God, Jesus “turn-the-other-cheek” Christ, or even the Ten Commandments? (I mean, even the Carholic Church had to give up most of that stuff after about 1000 years in order to keep their God-cred)
davemb says
People who worship their autos? Or drive too much?
farnkoff says
trickle-up says
like the ones from the guy insisting that most marriages are invalid.
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p>If McCain is claiming membership in a church that requires baptism or any other thing that he has not actualy satified, then maybe there is something (minor) to that, on the same order as the Reverend Wright nonsense.
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p>But to try to have this discussion about baptism, or marriage, or sacraments, or the infallibility of the Pope, or whatever, as something intrinsically embedded in the fabric of space-time is just impossible to do with a straight face.
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p>Sorry.
fieldscornerguy says
Why was this post ion the center column? Many Christians clearly believe that Baptism is necessary to be Christian. It seems clear that others don’t.
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p>Some believe that being born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit is necessary to be a Christian. Others, it seems, don’t.
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p>I don’t see why this is relevant enough to BMG to highlight it.
geo999 says
…even a half-assed, ignorant and petty smear against the hated conservative candidate is worthy of front-paging in some circles.
bob-neer says
That’s why. Plus, it’s vaguely interesting that (a) McCain has not been baptized (is that even true?), and (b) that some evidently bitter people consider folks who have not been baptized not to be Christian.
geo999 says
My threshold for hilarity isn’t quite as close to the gutter, it would seem.
lolorb says
if you were baptized, does that mean you are truly a Christian if you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, god (big D, small d or goddess) or anything remotely related to organized religion? Is that the litmus test for humanity?
syphax says
…and my wife is a lapsed Catholic. My four kids are baptized, and believe in some combination of Jesus, Zeus (we read some Greek/Roman mythology), and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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p>Are we in the club?
peter-porcupine says
marcus-graly says
but I thought accepting Jesus into your heart is what made one Christian. Either way, this relevant to nothing. If John McCain self identifies as Christian, I’m not going second guess him on that. More to the point, so what? If he was Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Jew, or some other faith, I wouldn’t be any more or less likely to support him.
pj says
I don’t really care what if any religion McCain professes. I would vote or not vote for him on more secular discussions. However, if you present yourself as a member of the great umbrella of Christianity I think you should at least fulfill the basic requirements and baptism is that basic.
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p>Again, McCain seems like a good and honorable man. I am sure george bush was baptised in a sterling silver font at some high Anglican Episcopal church and … well the rest is obvious to many of us.
peter-porcupine says
marcus-graly says
As PP alluded to, George Bush is Methodist. Furthermore, my Unitarian church uses a silver baptism bowl from the 17th Century worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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p>While Baptism is widely practiced among Christians, it is not universal. Jesus did not perform baptisms as part of his own ministry and some people interpret the later instructions for Baptism as either specific to that time and place or superseded by a Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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p>Even the Catholics, who generally hold that Baptism is necessary for salvation, make exceptions for martyrs, converts who die before receiving Baptism, and for anyone who have never heard of Jesus or the Church but “seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it”
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p>http://www.vatican.va/archive/…
joets says
I was worried was the level of discourse was getting too high.
tblade says
…for the shear absurdity of the argument being presented. I read “the mask slips” as sarcastic.
bob-neer says
And heaven forbid the level of discourse on BMG ever get too … elitist. Then we’d be as bad as the million-dollar Ivy League trust fund babies over at RMG, the MA GOP, and the Romney campaign đŸ˜‰
joets says
stephgm says
My very first exposure to Christianity occurred when my fellow kindergartners told me I would be going to hell because I had never been baptized. I remember the discussion clearly, but I can’t recall whether I was more intrigued or worried by this news.
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p>A couple of years later my mother chauffeured me to the Sunday Schools of most of the local churches, and I chose the Methodists because the minister didn’t yell, and because they had a piano in every room. I sang in the children’s choir, and then the junior high choir, and eventually (motivated more out of conformity than devotion, though I did make an effort to believe) I was baptized and confirmed all in the same day.
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p>Shortly thereafter I stopped attending church because the adult choir was annoying: too many women who achieved something like a vibrato by shaking their heads.
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p>I look back with fondness at people who treated me kindly and tolerated my irreverent questions, but I’ve never been back to church. Am a more a Christian than John McCain because I was baptized? I think not.
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p>”And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love. Yes they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
peter-porcupine says
alexwill says
I think this whole “is John McCain a Christian” thing is a bit ridiculous. Especially as a lot of Christian religions don’t have adult baptism.
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p>That said, it does make his recent announcement of becoming a Baptist even more dubious: that is a religion which defined itself on the importance of adult baptism. My grandmother in England became an evangelical Baptist about 15 years ago, and the baptism is the point where she and her church considered her to be part of it. John McCain saying he’s now a Baptist even though he hasn’t been baptized becomes a stranger statement than it was before. I think there is real signs of pandering involved in someone claiming to join a religion without going through the actual act of joining the religion, and that’s an issue. This could be offensive to members of the church whom he was trying to court, and they should look at whether he was being sincere.
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p>But whether or not a candidate or a person is “Christian” or not is not an issue of public debate. Overall, I think this post goes over the line as far as what is reasonable.
laurel says
i dont care on way or another if mccain is baptised unless he’s used his supposed religion as a campaign tactic then been found to lie about it. but i’ll bet many huckabee voters do care about the baptismal details. remember the people who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for or endorse romney because they say he belongs to a cult and disbelieve his claim to christianity? well, they’re still out there in very large numbers.
they says
Laurel, you should just give up trying to understand religious voters. Imagine what you would feel if I said that gay voters will reject Clinton because she never bought a Judy Garland record or something like that. Silly, right? I bet absolutely zero Huckabee voters will care about McCain’s baptism details. Mormonism, with its white shirts and nameplates, is very different, it casts suspicion on the person’s current values and duties and loyalties, it’s not just some trivial detail or birth ritual that people had no control over. Not just mormonism, but over-loyalty to any particular religion would be suspicious, which is why McCain’s nonchalance about what church he belongs to is appealing, and Obama’s loyalty to a Black Nationalist church is disturbing. Huckabee was a pastor in some church, but he’s pretty general about what denomination that was. You get the sense he doesn’t even know, which is good.
farnkoff says
he put his hand on the Necromonicon instead of the Bible…