The people of Massachusetts, who know him best, like Mitt Romney least. That is telling.
As long as both men are themselves, Barack Obama should do just fine.
Please share your thoughts, assessments and judgments in the comments.
Please share widely!
centralmassdad says
Romney looks on, and Obama looks off.
How can it be that Romney is talking about specific people, and Obama is off in wonky abstraction land?
It probably doesn’t make a difference unless Obama throws up on his shoes, but Romney is up on points early.
Ryan says
but you and I felt the same for the first 5-10 minutes.
Ryan says
9:25 in —
The president seemed a little off in the first, the sort of off when one’s out there on stage suffering from a little stage fright, but he’s back on track now — getting in some good lines.
Mitt’s actually had some human-esque moments and is generally better than he’s been in a long, long time. That said, he’s had some whoppers, including the flip-flopped varieties, already.
Too much talk on taxes. This debate is starting to get very boring. I think a lot of people are going to be turning off the TV, if we don’t mix some of these subjects up.
Ryan says
*few minutes.
Sorry for forgetting to include that.
Ryan says
Romney to Lehrer, talking about how he wants to “cut” — you know, all federal funding — of PBS.
It sounded kind of similar to how he “likes firing people.”
Awkward.
tblade says
Yeah, Mitt, PBS is why we have such a huge deficit and firing Big Bird and harvesting the assets of Seseme St will bring the US into solvency.
jconway says
Very strong opening for Romney who almost sounded like a centrist and a human being, but POTUS has come back and I think he is doing better right now
oceandreams says
That they’re having a discussion of actual issues. Good thing David Gregory isn’t moderating, or we’d be listening to questions about the President’s birth certificate.
Ryan says
30 minutes over taxes got old, fast.
oceandreams says
20 minutes on Native American heritage. Although I agree there should be more to a domestic policy debate than tax rates. This isn’t quite as engaging as I’d hoped.
Ryan says
and, really, that may be all that matters.
After Mitt defended his plan saying it didn’t effect people already on social security and medicare, the President had a great line:
“If you’re 54 or 55, you might want to listen.”
oceandreams says
I’ve been saying for weeks now that all the focus on seniors regarding the Ryan plan was ignoring the many 40 to 54 year olds who have paid into the system for decades and will now be told they can’t collect what they were promised.
Ryan says
I have absolutely no faith 20 and 30 somethings will have ANYTHING other than Social Security and Medicare. We’re going to be worse off than our parents, and our parents — with no pensions and little in 401(k)s — are pretty much fucked.
mannygoldstein says
They won’t have those, either. Didn’t you hear Obama say that he and Romney basically agree on Social Security?
We’re about to be savagely Grand Bargained.
Ryan says
without Social Security and Medicare, we’re not “pretty much fucked” like our parents, but utterly and completely fucked… and it looks exactly like that’s going to happen.
I’m waiting for the politician who’s plans to reform Medicare and Social Security include Futurama-esque suicide booths.
fortleft says
Jim just can’t control Mitt who keeps interrupting the President and talking over him. I bet when the time counted he will have talked for at least 70% of the time. What the ….!?
Ryan says
but ultimately, the President has to step up his game and take the initiative.
jconway says
Always an oerrated moderator and way past his prime, Gwen Ifil would’ve kicked ass
Ryan says
she is leaps and bounds better… and actually manages to keep me engaged in the debate (instead of bored out of my mind).
Maybe boring shouldn’t matter, but what good is a debate if people are changing the channel 15 minutes in?
tblade says
If Ryan says he is bored, that means I can cop to being bored with this, too.
HeartlandDem says
Mitt Romney has been quicker throughout and hit the heart string issues in his Constitutional/God pitch. President Obama looks tired and I am bored.
jconway says
The spent five minutes debating about BOARDS
lynne says
Apollo 13, til Chris came downstairs (he was watching it upstairs) and took over the good TV. Meh.
oceandreams says
Is looking like a replacement ref.
Either there are rules to be followed or there aren’t.
jconway says
Mitt gave a shoutout to Scottie too hottie Brown, I really hope Obama crushes Mitt on how Romneycare and Obamacare are the same fucking thing
jconway says
How did a debate about the economy and jobs end up being a debate about tax cuts and deficit reductions?
HeartlandDem says
and went for Healey’s money on the LG ticket. It must suck to perform mutual ass kissing between those who hate each other’s shit. Yuck.
tblade says
C’mon, guys! Mix it up!
Ryan says
under the cover of wonkiness.
(Does even 5% of the population know what both Dodd/Frank and Simpson/Bowles is?)
sabutai says
Undecideds are low-information voters. What is a low-information voter going to get out of this debate? Obama got a good filibuster in there, Romney waxed rhapsodic about the private sector. I’m not get any lasting impressions from this.
Ryan says
You’re absolutely right — this is a snoozefest and even for people struggling to keep the channel on, they’re not going to process much.
The pundits will go nuts for Mitt, though, trying to make this look like a clear win to try to make him have a comeback (and keep their ratings up). We’ll see if the pundits have anymore luck with that than last time, with all the instant polling on debate results that’s done nowadays.
jconway says
Gergen is calling it a horse race and said Mitt was at its best, let the MSM begin a brief turn on the President
jconway says
Since Jim Leher’s social security and medicare will be untouched by either candidate I can see why he doesn’t care about this debate
Also best line of the night “president is entitled to his own house and own plan” aka I had to buy all of mine
Kosta Demos says
in both Lehrer and the President. Lehrer should have reined things in more, obviously. But why on earth didn’t Obama call Romney out on the crazy reversals and outright lies he was spouting? This should have been a slap down. Unfortunately, Romney got the upper hand because he was never really challenged on his contradictions.
whosmindingdemint says
I suspect Obama’s team told him to hold his own and not go on the offensive – why, I have no idea.
So Romney doesn’t want an imaginary unelected government board deciding who gets what medical procedures but he wants to grade schools. So who does the grading? – an unelected government board or perhaps he intends to privatize it?
All these great Romney ideas – yet none of them so great that he would put them in place during his administration.
Ryan says
When a team “preps” a candidate to go outside of their skin. They are who they are; prep teams should work to make what they are enhance their candidacy. If a candidate is viewed as feisty and tough, well, incorporate that fucking shit in the campaign message and run with it.
Obama was never particularly ‘tough’ but he wasn’t afraid to mix it up with McCain or in other debates. His Chicago team clearly prepped him to not challenge Mitt and, in doing so, ran away from the central points of the campaign — including their barrages of Mitt on issues like Bain, his tax returns and now the the 47% issue — that have been scoring points all along.
It’s amazing the team could have been so good at prepping for the conventions and so utterly lousy at doing the debates. They need to place a call with the Massachusetts Democratic Party and ask how it’s done.
Us Greater Boston Democrats knock the socks off those dudes in Chicago :p
Steve Stein says
but will it matter? Obama should have been more aggressive calling him out on his falsehoods.
Dan Kennedy had a great tweet: “Don’t think Obama ever recovered from Romney’s lying about not wanting a $5 trillion tax cut. O couldn’t believe it.”
Jasiu says
and didn’t get called on it, either by Obama or Lehrer. All of a sudden, he’s a centrist again.
farnkoff says
Was that the Laffer curve he trotted out to pay for everything? Good grief.
Christopher says
He sounded more reasonable than I’ve heard from a Republicaan in a long time. I’m not sure the debate swung any votes or that it helped undecideds make up their mind. I did like that it was all about real issues instead of silly season stuff and that there was actual engagement with each other as opposed to simply simultaneous press conferences. MSNBC is very critical of the President for not going after Romney more aggressively.
jconway says
Very similar to the Mitt we saw debate Shannon O’Brien I might add, his top five policy ideas were centrist as was a lot of his defense of small business. Obama really failed to tie Romney to Ryancare, call him out for his flip flops, or use the opportunity about tax rates and offshoring to talk about Mitts glaring flaws on that front. I am also tired of him using Bill Clinton and Abe Lincoln all the time, he has a great record in his own right and he should actually RUN on it.
I think foreign policy and the third debate which may have more social questions can help bring out Mitts flaws. If Mitt got a draw or a small win on his best issue it still isn’t a great place for him to be.
Al says
Unfortunately, my memory is longer than 1 minute. I remember the years of mocking MA, and the year of being “severely conservative”, so all this is meaningless to me. He can say it, but I don’t believe him. I hope more voters are similarly critical, or can think beyond the echo of his words.
Kosta Demos says
that the actual content of this encounter (such as it was) will achieve much popular penetration. Heck, my wife, who just idolizes the current POTUS, fell asleep within 20 minutes. And it seems to me that Mitt’s big statement was, “I want to do all the stuff he does, but I won’t tell you how.” I just feel frustrated by the fact that there were so many opportunities to really cut Romney down to size and Barak didn’t bother.
Ryan says
Mitt won with clear margins. Let’s all admit that and make sure the President knows we want a stronger, sharper performance next time, where he’s practicing ‘prevent defense’ and isn’t afraid to bludgeon Mitt with 47%, Bain, tax returns and most especially Paul “I wrote the plan to kill Medicare” Ryan.
Ryan says
Gah, I’m terrible at this tonight :p
johnd says
Obama looked annoyed, distracted, uncomfortable and wished he was someplpace else. Romney was aggressive and confident. He dismissed a lot of common misconceptions of Mitt. I have to admit that I am loving watching the MSNBC people suffering over the performance of Obama.
I don’t now if you all can be objective (or whether I can) but I think Romney spanked Obama, at least tonight. You can blame the moderator but it was a great debate format with Obama and Romney being able to talk face to face without all the pundits “interpreting” their words.
On a more unbiased viewpoint, I have to say that I was very happy to hear two extremely intelligent, informed and well spoken candidates running for office. Contrast this to Brown and Warren sounded like two dopes on many questions.
Ryan says
that the biggest takeaway of the night was the fact that the entire debate was a #fail.
Yes, Romney won it and did as well as I’ve *ever* seen him do, but the total thing was a snoozefest, so I’m not sure how much it’s really going to change things. Maybe the perception will from the pundits after the debate, but not the debate itself.
And Rachel’s big talking point is the predominant one of the night, so I don’t think MSNBC is being all that “suffering” of the night. Ed’s angry over it, though.
jconway says
The media expected Obama to knock Romney down and end the race, everyone knew this wouldn’t happen, Romney fought Obama to a draw and now Romney is declared the winner by default. Maybe unanimous decision is the good way to put it, he hit a lot of punches, Obama deflected most of them but he laid few on Mitt.
Also it was a very substantive debate, too bad it was about taxes and the budget and not the economy.
mski011 says
People expected Obama to deliver a knock-out punch, but that was never going to happen. I happen to believe that Mitt can win the debate and gain nothing. Could the “narrative” be changed? Only if there is something different in the campaign. Plus, I happen to agree that Mitt Romney was too hot on TV and frankly did not sound very coherent at times. It appears the media is scoring points just for aggressiveness. However, none of that will change the fact that people do not like him.
farnkoff says
Of course not. The real guy was the dude speaking at the private dinner. It was a great performance, in the sense of Academy Award-winning. I think it’s a little weird to suggest Obama should have gone “negative-personal”- it would have seemed very inappropriate in the context of the debate, and given that Romney was very well-behaved and professional.
Romney’s full of shit, but he won the debate. One thing Obama needed to have an answer for: the offshoring tax break. He should have been able to quote chapter and verse when challenged on that.
jconway says
Someone has to ask the Bernie Shaw question to Paul Ryan-if your daughter was raped would you still force her to have her rapists child?
nopolitician says
Did I hear Romney say that he cut taxes in Massachusetts 19 times? And that he supported education in this state?
Seems to me that he cut them once – ultimately resulting in cuts at the local level – and raised many different fees once the sh*t hit the fan.
Al says
but he neglected to claim that he was the king of fee to increase state revenues while holding onto the claim of not raising taxes. MA higher education suffered a great deal because of his actions as state support dropped significantly during his term-
michaelhoran says
I’m seeing waves of panic all over the net. I’m not so worried ,leastways about the repercussions of this one-off.
First, as some fo you have poined out, this was a snooze. If it were a hot’n sexy debate on who to bomb next, people would be jazzed.
Second: I hear Democrats screaming that Obama should have been talking up progressive policy. No. Romney was all the poor and green energy, Obama was about responsible deficit cutting. Each is being his opposite number, appealling to his opponent’s more indie-minded potential supporters. This inning isn’t about firing up your base. Leave that stuff to the Greens. Late innings in campaigns are not the time for moral crusades. If you as a staunch Democrat/liberal aren’t hearing what you want to, it’s because it’s not about you. I’m not sure MSNBC gets that. If I’m an undecided somewhat in touch independent, tonight did NOTHING to help me make up my mind. In fact, I’m probably more confused than ever. That’s a draw, and I’m down with a draw right now.
Third: the ground game is going to be more important than the televised debates. From everything I’m reading, Obama’s, though not what it was in ’08, is stronger than Romney’s. Though some of you may know better. Still, Romney took a few days off the stump to prepare. What he might have won here he loses there.
Fourth: you want attack dog mode on the 47%? Not Obama’s style. That’s OUR job. Guy can’t bring himself not to take the high road. Ultimately it allowed him to prevail over Hillary. No small thing.
I want red meat too. But I’ve learned to trust his and his team’s acumen. Not on every play. But over the course of the season, yeah.
Fourth: that said, sure, it wasn’t Obama’s best night. He had his lapses during that great series of debates with Hillary, too, remember. But as you know, debates are rarely game-changers. I’ll be suprised if this results in a significant long-term bounce. Still, if the results suggest he was lax, didn’t sufficiently defend himself against some of Romney’s lies and charges, I expect you’ll see something feistier next time around.
I wached this with my DTC over beers, so I might be overly sanguine, and I’ll probably re-watch the whole damn thing tomorrow, but I don’t have as bad a feeling as many do about this.
Ryan says
“attack mode on the 47%”
and saying, “Mr. Governor, your policies tonight sound very nice and conservative, but they don’t exactly fly with what you’re saying to billionaires behind closed doors. What the American people want to know, almost on a daily basis, is which Mitt Romney is going to come out at any given moment?”
He simply can’t let Mitt etch-a-sketch his baggage away, without calling him out on it. That’s not being an attack dog, that’s demonstrating to the American people the differences between the two candidates, most particularly around which one of them is more trustworthy of being in office.
Ryan says
Where’s the edit button when I need it!? This is the third time tonight!
I meant to say, “Mr. Governor, your policies tonight sound very nice and MODERATE”
not conservative. Gah.
fenway49 says
I was looking at the polling in the Pres. race and Romney was down 5 or more in enough states to get Obama well over 270. So he needs to sweep with the undecided or change some Obama supporters’ minds. I don’t think it was enough but time will tell.
Obama tonight was off. Hesitant, not hitting back on key things. I didn’t like how he was always looking down on the split screen and kept NODDING YES at blatant lies. I’ve seen a lot suggesting the Obama campaign strategy was to lie low, not attack. That should not have meant somnambulant. 47% stuff aside, the President needed to make a stronger defense of his record and plans for the future. Some key points were omitted entirely, some stated but, ahem, not “elegantly.”
Romney clearly was better on style and the President allowed him to skate on a lot of his bullshit. And it was all bullshit. Suddenly he’s Russ Feingold on how to regulate Wall Street? He does plan to slash rates by 20%, but that won’t result in $5 trillion in reduced revenue that needs to be recouped somewhere to be revenue neutral. He’s going after deductions, OK, which ones? Mortgage interest? Charitable contributions? The Tax Policy Center says his plan would lower taxes on the wealthy, and raise them on the middle class. Not called out. He’d get rid of Obamacare but put in place “the principles we put in place in my state.” Which is the same thing but more liberal.
The part I really hated was how he kept citing Massachusetts. He spent half his time as governor bashing our Commonwealth, and didn’t even seek re-election because he knew he’d get his clock cleaned. We’ve been top notch in education here since about 1636. It wasn’t something Mitt Romney did. His tax cut here did cause significant cuts in state aid to towns, which hurt education.
Unfortunately with the low-info undecideds, it probably all sounded good. Fortunately, Romney came in so far behind it’s probably not enough.
Good news: Romney essentially admitted he’d voucherize Medicare. Bad news: he once again indicated he’d go Simpson-Bowles on Social Security.
Ryan says
who are angry with some of what the President said (ie Ed Shultz) or who are saying “don’t panic!” (ie Kos), but I haven’t seen very many people who are actually panicking.
fenway49 says
in another couple of days. I think the Medicare thing will be one thing Obama’s people can build on, and the complete re-write of Romney’s proposals is another.
I didn’t think Obama did well tonight, but what made me maddest was the hint at the Soc. Sec. Grand Bargain. Here we go again. Entering 2012 I felt no enthusiasm for this race. I figured best case, more Obama with a GOP House (and perhaps Senate) to cave to; worst case, complete disaster. Recently I’ve been drawn into the horse race and the importance of keeping Mitt Romney the hell out of the White House. But I am looking, in the event Obama does win, toward a future in which he pisses me off again.
One thing at a time. Deep breath.