Trump should be impeached…

under Article II, Section 4, of the Constitution:

‘ The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.’

An Independent Commission, separate from Congressional investigators, should be established to find out what Trump knew and when he knew it, about Russian corruption of our democracy.

Fred  Rich  LaRiccia

 

Recommended by betsey, jconway, pablo.



Discuss

27 Comments . Leave a comment below.
  1. TRUMPISTS MAY BE GUILTY OF TREASON

    by betraying our country.
    This is a serious breach of the public trust. It’s worse than Watergate because our national security has been compromised at the highest levels of our government.
    We must find the truth. What did the Trumpists know and when did they know it ?

    Fred Rich LaRiccia

  2. "May" is not "is" but it's on the way

    But it looks like we are getting closer. What do we know? We know that Russia took actions that corrupted our election process. We know that this corruption benefited Trump. We do not know (and will never know) if the degree of corruption was significant in Trump’s win.

    If Trump did not ask the Russians for help OR if once he learned of the efforts on part of the Russians made no promises and asked for no favors, he’s clean.

    If, on the other hand, Trump suggested a quid pro quo, that’s treason.

    My hunch is that he did. My hunch is that Pence knew about it. Pence used Kelly. Kelly was trying to protect Trump.

    This is going to be fun to watch.

    Can you say “President Ryan?”

  3. Then...

    President Paul Ryan can tell the nation that our short national nightmare is over.

    • Hmm...

      What makes you so sure it won’t be a national nightmare under a President Ryan? I just don’t that happening anyway, as Pence would become President – now THAT would be a real nightmare!

      • I think the assumption is...

        …that Pence will go down for Russia too. President Ryan would be a much more typical Republican, too conservative for us to be sure, but not DUMB.

    • Question

      If Trump is removed from office for wrongdoing, does he forfeit his presidential pension and health-care?

  4. No, Trump should not be impeached

    The more I think about this, the more I become convinced that Trump needs to be given the chance to fail spectacularly, so that it becomes clear even to his die hard supporters that he was the wrong choice.

    That isn’t going to happen if he’s removed from office; millions of his blue collar supporters will think that if only he had been allowed to fulfill his promises, we’d have all those high-paying manufacturing jobs back and the glory days of the 1950′s and 1960′s would be back. They’ll be all too willing to support other right-wing populists in the future.

    I think the only way to preserve democracy is to utterly discredit the Right in the eyes of its supporters, and that is by handing the bat to Trump, letting him take his turn at the plate, and watching him strike out.

  5. As a partisan, I agree with Necturus

    on objective, though not strategy.

    Blue-collar supporters are either persuadable or not. Like most voters, they don’t think deeply about who they are voting for and rely on poor heuristics for doing so. A lot of the blue-collar folks I’ve heard interviewed or spoken with personally fit this bill. They aren’t stupid. They’ll change their minds about Trump. The Kool-Aid drinkers? Fuck ‘em.

    Pence may indeed become spoiled goods. After all, he was an opportunist who agreed to run with Trump. He should have known that Trump was bad news.

    Impeachment is NOT around the corner. There will be months before investigations get started in earnest and more months before enough of the GOP realizes that the situation is hopeless. Democrats should delay any appointments (SCOTUS) as long as possible and hope and work for a favorable result in 2018.

    It’s hard to say if Trump just up and quits and what happens then. America failed epically in the election, and it isn’t all the fault of the GOP or Russia.

    • The risks are real, though

      If the “only” thing at stake (I put “only” in scare quotes to emphasize that these are actually very important) were essentially political choices like freedom of choice for women, economics, even constitutional protections for all of us, then I would enthusiastically agree with you.

      His behavior in the past week shows me that he literally cannot be trusted to not do insane things. He handled the Korean missile episode in public, for crying out loud. He used his personal phone for the calls (after all the uproar about Ms. Clinton). The Russians have a surveillance vessel thirty miles off the coast of Connecticut, and they’ve deployed mobile missile launchers in explicit violation of the current arms control agreements.

      What happens if — or when — this lunatic says “Nuke ‘em”?

      I think this man is dangerously unstable, here and now. I think he is completely unsuited to handle the provocations that are already happening — he is NOT handling them — and I think crazies in the rest of the world are chomping at the bit to ratchet up the provocations.

      He needs to be removed from office, the sooner the better.

      • Russians have surveillance off the CT coast?

        First, can you cite or at least elaborate? That sounds like quite the bombshell and I’m surprised I haven’t heard. Second, isn’t 30 miles within our territorial waters? Even if not that should be a matter of what diplomats would probably call “grave concern” for us, and may warrant action.

        • Yes

          But I’m not so sure that it is a bombshell. It’s just suddenly newsworthy because of other news related to Russia.

          This was super-common for the entire Cold War, and I think it has been relatively common during the past few years– a break only during Russia’s post Cold War nadir.

          They do the same thing with aircraft. If you know anyone who serves in the Navy, depending on where they are stationed, you will hear stories of incidents like THIS, from last April, in which Russian MiG fighters “buzzed” a US destroyer in the Baltic Sea at altitudes as low as 75ft, which must have been quite exciting to those aboard the destroyer.

          I am quite sure that there are plenty of instances in which our guys do the same, but those aren’t declassified.

          But that just reinforces St’s notion that it would be nice to have a cool head in charge. These sort of things could easily be set up to offer Trump an easy way to be “tough” on Russia, notwithstanding the growing evidence that he could be a Russian puppet, as a means of keeping up the mortgage payments on the Tower. But I’m not even sure that I would trust the guy to handle a staged incident without losing control of the situation.

          I kind of feel like we are all unwilling passengers in a car driven by a drunk. We might get home safe, we might die in a wreck, and we might also survive in a wreck that kills a family in a minivan.

      • Three scenarios as I see them

        1) Trump is proven guilty-system works and he is impeached

        Where there is smoke, there is fire, and FBI, IC, and other agencies have conclusive proof that Trump was in on the Russian hacking or at least coordinated with Russia to some degree. Republicans turn on him, first in the Senate and then in the House as he hunkers down and becomes more erratic and isolated. Similar to the Nixon scenario and Trump either resigns or is impeached. Pence is investigated but not implicated and is our new President.

        2) Same as above-GOP does nothing

        I am terrified at this possibility and am not sure how we respond to this, other than making impeaching the president the midterm issue and hope we get back into power to do it. This would demonstrate that the extreme partisanship of the last three decades has thoroughly broken our constitutional system of government, possibly beyond repair. And who knows, maybe he contests the legitimacy of that result or the elections?

        3) Likliest-no smoking gun but reasonable conclusions-GOP goes after subordinates hard and insulates Trump and Pence

        A few more patsys fall and its a slow trickle of arrests and turncoasts that absorbs the bulk of the Trump presidency. The good news is-his bad governance is largely halted. The bad news is-he still gets to make bad appointments and good governance is also largely halted. This will make the shutdown look like a picnic. We are talking about a shutdown in all but name for the duration of the administration, which may last two terms since no room for Dems to talk about their agenda.

        • Special prosecutor is needed, NOW

          All three scenarios take far too long. The Watergate burglary took place on 17-Jun-1972. Mr. Nixon was finally forced to resign (in order to avoid certain impeachment and conviction) on 9-Aug-1972 — more than two years later.

          A lot happened in those two years (1972-1974). The world moves MUCH faster today. Mr. Trump and, as nearly as anyone can tell, ALL his associates are MUCH less competent then Mr. Nixon and his staff. For all the valid criticisms one can make of Mr. Kissinger, Mr. Haldeman, Mr. Erlichman, Mr. Dean, and so on, none of them were crazy as a loon in the way that we’ve already seen from Mr. Bannon, Ms. Conway (no relation), Mr. Spicer, Mr. Miller, et al.

          Section 4 of the 25th Amendment provides the mechanism:

          Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

          That is accompanied by the following text:

          Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

          I’m no fan of Mr. Pence. As much as I disagree with his political views, I see no evidence that he is bat-shit crazy.

          If Mr. Pence has, in fact, been compromised by the Russians then his removal can be handled by more measured due process along the lines of your three above alternatives.

          I think we need a special prosecutor right now. I think that man or woman has to be empowered to address at least two key questions:

          1. Does Mr. Trump have the mental and emotional stability required to continue in office
          2. Has Mr. Trump been so compromised by outside forces that he is unable to make rational decisions that are in the best interests of humanity.

          • I'm having a hard time imagining...

            …that a Cabinet just recently chosen by him will so quickly turn on him.

            • Read it carefully ...

              Note my emphasis:

              Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

              and

              Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

              It is that “other body as Congress may by law provide” that provides the mechanism.

              I think it’s crucial that we have hard evidence, as hard as can be obtained, that shows that Mr. Trump is incompetent and is also likely being manipulated by Moscow (through various threats, blackmail, and plain venal corruption). I think that such evidence will show that Mr. Trump has hand-picked a cabinet unable to fulfill its responsibilities under the above language.

              With that evidence in hand, developed by a special prosecutor, I think the “other body” is the key.

              • What other body might that be?

                If Congress is going to act they might as well start the impeachment process.

                • The committee to unseat Donald Trump

                  I don’t know. :)

                  I’m looking for something that doesn’t take two years and tens of thousands of pages of testimony (remembering back to Watergate).

                  • But if Trump disagrees...

                    …with the assessment that he is unfit, which he almost certainly will, it will still take 2/3 of both congressional chambers to keep him out anyway.

                    • And an additional caution

                      Two President were impeached – Johnson and Clinton, both Democrats as it happens. Read the grounds for Johnson’s impeachment, as they are very relevant here, similar to your daydreams about Trump.

                      Neither was removed from office.

                    • What is your point?

                      Mr. Clinton’s impeachment was a failed political assassination founded in the same moral bankruptcy that put Donald Trump in office. Mr. Johnson was impeached more than a century ago, again for what in retrospect appear to be purely partisan reasons. Mr. Nixon resigned rather than be impeached and convicted. He was guilty of the accusations against him. He knew it, the House knew it, the Senate knew it, and so he resigned.

                      None of those ex-presidents did anything during their entire administrations that is remotely comparable to what Mr. Trump has already done in less than a month.

                      I think he is a clear and present danger to humanity. I really do.

                    • Do you really claim this impeachment movement isn't partisan?

                      Your nose is growing.

                    • Yes, I do

                      Do you really claim that Mr. Trump is not committing what appear to be impeachable offenses daily?

                      Let me just offer some highlights:
                      - Apparent collusion with Russia (treason)
                      - Lying to the FBI regarding Mr. Flynn et al
                      - Personally benefiting from government spending (rent to his own properties, for example)
                      - Emoluments clause violations
                      - Throwing innocent people in prison (illegal immigration order)

                      The list goes on and on and on. It might turn out that he is innocent of all these. The allegations are not partisan.

        • You had me until the last line.

          Already raising the spectre of a SECOND Trump term given how awful this one is shaping up to be? Just can’t help yourself with the pessimism!:( There are also sorts of venues and opportunities for Dems to talk about their agenda, even, and maybe especially, if there is a shutdown in all but name.

        • Liklihood

          It strikes me that the chances that Republicans in Congress acting in the interest of the Republic rather than in the interest of short-term political advantage of the Republican Party is approximately nil.

          So, that takes committee investigations and impeachment off the table. On the present trajectory, it might be a good campaign issue, but could also be a good way of making all your voters stay home and watch Netflix. Hopefully Schumer et al. find a way to keep the pressure on while also finding a way to agree among themselves.

          If anything, I would expect Congressional investigations to be a means of finding and wrecking individual professionals in the non-political government who are insufficiently loyal to the regime.

          The GOP and its voters are now in the thrall of a charlatan cult leader. When things go sideways, they don’t question the leader, but find an outside scapegoat.

          That leaves us with leaks and the heirs to Woodward and Bernstein doing their thing. Which, 3 weeks in, hasn’t been doing too badly.

  6. The impeachment will begin, after:

    After taxes on corporations are drastically reduced.
    After the Estate Tax is eliminated.
    After regulations on Wall Street are all but gone.
    After health care is simply turned into a money machine for the wealthy.
    After labor is cut off at the knees.
    After the Supreme Court is a lock for the aforementioned and has its sights on Roe.
    After Social Security is on the track to privatization.

    When all this is done, and the Republicans no longer need him, the impeachment will begin as they turn on him like a pack of rabid wolves.

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Thu 23 Mar 4:16 AM