Flynn pled guilty to a felony — lying to the FBI. That is not a minor charge.
doublemansays
I think it’s a pretty minor charge and specifically created to get people to flip when the government might not be able to get them with a more serious crime.
It’s also a pretty scary law in terms of the power it gives the FBI.
JimCsays
Yes agreed. My first thought was “That’s all they have?” but then the speculators assured me it represented a deal. We’ll see.
petrsays
I think it’s a pretty minor charge and specifically created to get people to flip when the government might not be able to get them with a more serious crime.
You think lying to the investigators of a serious crime is not, itself, a serious crime?
FBI:Where were you, Nov 22, 1963?
Lee Harvey Oswald:I was in Sausalito, California…
FBI:Is that why we captured you in a movie theatre in Dallas, Texas, on that date?
You think, in fact, that a lie, about anything, to anyone, by the National Security Advisor -designate isn’t a serious thing?
doublemansays
Your questions are very misguided.
The federal crime of making false statements has a very low bar. I’ve no doubt that what Flynn did or said is very bad, but the charge of “making false statements” can be brought for some of the least serious actions or which someone can be punished under federal law. I pointed that out because this charge does not necessarily equal treason-level actions, and actually is “a minor charge.”
This is the law you also see regularly used to railroad muslim youths into terrorism-related charges when the FBI entraps disaffected kids online into fake situations to get them with material support for terrorism.
There are a lot of other charges hanging over Flynn’s head. This is not the most severe. @SethAbramson is my go-to-guy on the entire TrumpRussia scandal.
Here’s what he says,
61/ While Flynn is getting a substantial benefit by being deliberately *under*-charged, if his evidence is very strong Mueller may also have made an agreement regarding the amount of prison time the government will ask the judge for and how much time it’ll allow Flynn to ask for.
62/ Another reason the government *under*-charges a witness it intends to use at trial is to give a future defendant’s defense team less material to work with on cross-examination. Obviously Flynn is shown to be a liar—but you don’t want him weighted down with *many* convictions.
Abramson also says, and I agree based on previous reading, that Trump began working with the Russians at least as far back as 2015. It’s quite possible that he was actively working with them earlier.
If all the information is added up, with an appropriate suspension of disbelief, here’s what the evidence shows:
Donald Trump, motivated by money and Russian kompromat, began working with the Russians to get elected president. At minimum, the Russians want to sow chaos, but they also want to weaken United States influence and thus strengthen theirs. He is tearing apart the State Department to weaken the United States’ foreign influence at the behest of the Russians. He is doing his best to reproduce the Russian government model with corrupt(ible) people in office. Trump is what a Manchurian candidate looks like in real life.
jconwaysays
Mark Bail is 100% correct on all his points. Also interesting that Trump is publicly knifing Tillerson in the back (he’s been known to be the source of his own leak many times in the past, including as President) and elevating Pompeo from CIA to State and Cotton from Senate to CIA.
It removes a moderate State Dept head who wanted to stay in Paris and the Iran deal and ended up being more of a Russia hawk than we expected with Russia doves obsessed with Iran and North Korea.
So now at least one political apparatchik of Trumps will be in charge of an ostensibly apolitical intelligence agency. Comey gone, an independent CIA gone, and now a State Dept further eroded into irrelevance with historically high numbers of Foreign Service retirements. They are toasting each other in rhe Kremlin tonight, and our asinine polarized politics brought us to this point.
I said McCain was right on Russia in 2008, Romney was right in 2012, the reset wouldn’t work and Wikileaks was a Russian intelligence dump masquerading as a left wing anarchist. The left sleptwalked while the neoconservative right was sidelined by the alt right. Now the heartland dittoheads who called Obama a pussy on Putin in 2015 are calling him a great ally in 2017 while the left has woken up too late to be effective in stopping this sabotage.
bob-gardnersays
What foreign power benefits if,as speculated, Tom Cotton is brought on as CIA director?
Mark L. Bailsays
He’s in bed with Trump. He has no experience running a spy agency.
Like the CIA or not, they oppose the intel services of other countries. Having a loser run it weakens the it. If the CIA is weak, our enemies benefit. The degree of Russian interference in our election is just becoming known. It’s huge. My guess is that it is one of the handful of factors that changed the election’s outcome.
If Cotton can recruit or hire useful people, he can corrupt them for Trump’s purposes.
Tillerson and Trump are gutting the State Department. That weakens us.
One of Russia’s strategic goals is to weaken the U.S. and Western Europe and make itself look like it an acceptable alternative to us. Right now, they’re doing a hell of a good job at it.
But Russia isn’t the only country that benefits from a weak CIA. Any country that has a conflict with us potentially benefits from it.
fredrichlaricciasays
Flynn’s guilty plea proves one thing for certain — Trump lied when he said none of his people had anything to do with the Russians.
fredrichlaricciasays
“It’s bullshit if they don’t let Hillary Clinton drag Flynn to prison in Wonder Women’s lasso and whatnot.” George Wallace
It was the fanatic Flynn who led the hysterical screams at the RNC Convention : “LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP.”
fredrichlariccia says
Flynn pled guilty to a felony — lying to the FBI. That is not a minor charge.
doubleman says
I think it’s a pretty minor charge and specifically created to get people to flip when the government might not be able to get them with a more serious crime.
It’s also a pretty scary law in terms of the power it gives the FBI.
JimC says
Yes agreed. My first thought was “That’s all they have?” but then the speculators assured me it represented a deal. We’ll see.
petr says
You think lying to the investigators of a serious crime is not, itself, a serious crime?
FBI: Where were you, Nov 22, 1963?
Lee Harvey Oswald: I was in Sausalito, California…
FBI: Is that why we captured you in a movie theatre in Dallas, Texas, on that date?
You think, in fact, that a lie, about anything, to anyone, by the National Security Advisor -designate isn’t a serious thing?
doubleman says
Your questions are very misguided.
The federal crime of making false statements has a very low bar. I’ve no doubt that what Flynn did or said is very bad, but the charge of “making false statements” can be brought for some of the least serious actions or which someone can be punished under federal law. I pointed that out because this charge does not necessarily equal treason-level actions, and actually is “a minor charge.”
This is the law you also see regularly used to railroad muslim youths into terrorism-related charges when the FBI entraps disaffected kids online into fake situations to get them with material support for terrorism.
JimC says
Big — https://twitter.com/BrianRoss
Mark L. Bail says
There are a lot of other charges hanging over Flynn’s head. This is not the most severe. @SethAbramson is my go-to-guy on the entire TrumpRussia scandal.
Here’s what he says,
61/ While Flynn is getting a substantial benefit by being deliberately *under*-charged, if his evidence is very strong Mueller may also have made an agreement regarding the amount of prison time the government will ask the judge for and how much time it’ll allow Flynn to ask for.
62/ Another reason the government *under*-charges a witness it intends to use at trial is to give a future defendant’s defense team less material to work with on cross-examination. Obviously Flynn is shown to be a liar—but you don’t want him weighted down with *many* convictions.
Abramson also says, and I agree based on previous reading, that Trump began working with the Russians at least as far back as 2015. It’s quite possible that he was actively working with them earlier.
If all the information is added up, with an appropriate suspension of disbelief, here’s what the evidence shows:
Donald Trump, motivated by money and Russian kompromat, began working with the Russians to get elected president. At minimum, the Russians want to sow chaos, but they also want to weaken United States influence and thus strengthen theirs. He is tearing apart the State Department to weaken the United States’ foreign influence at the behest of the Russians. He is doing his best to reproduce the Russian government model with corrupt(ible) people in office. Trump is what a Manchurian candidate looks like in real life.
jconway says
Mark Bail is 100% correct on all his points. Also interesting that Trump is publicly knifing Tillerson in the back (he’s been known to be the source of his own leak many times in the past, including as President) and elevating Pompeo from CIA to State and Cotton from Senate to CIA.
It removes a moderate State Dept head who wanted to stay in Paris and the Iran deal and ended up being more of a Russia hawk than we expected with Russia doves obsessed with Iran and North Korea.
So now at least one political apparatchik of Trumps will be in charge of an ostensibly apolitical intelligence agency. Comey gone, an independent CIA gone, and now a State Dept further eroded into irrelevance with historically high numbers of Foreign Service retirements. They are toasting each other in rhe Kremlin tonight, and our asinine polarized politics brought us to this point.
I said McCain was right on Russia in 2008, Romney was right in 2012, the reset wouldn’t work and Wikileaks was a Russian intelligence dump masquerading as a left wing anarchist. The left sleptwalked while the neoconservative right was sidelined by the alt right. Now the heartland dittoheads who called Obama a pussy on Putin in 2015 are calling him a great ally in 2017 while the left has woken up too late to be effective in stopping this sabotage.
bob-gardner says
What foreign power benefits if,as speculated, Tom Cotton is brought on as CIA director?
Mark L. Bail says
He’s in bed with Trump. He has no experience running a spy agency.
Like the CIA or not, they oppose the intel services of other countries. Having a loser run it weakens the it. If the CIA is weak, our enemies benefit. The degree of Russian interference in our election is just becoming known. It’s huge. My guess is that it is one of the handful of factors that changed the election’s outcome.
If Cotton can recruit or hire useful people, he can corrupt them for Trump’s purposes.
Tillerson and Trump are gutting the State Department. That weakens us.
One of Russia’s strategic goals is to weaken the U.S. and Western Europe and make itself look like it an acceptable alternative to us. Right now, they’re doing a hell of a good job at it.
But Russia isn’t the only country that benefits from a weak CIA. Any country that has a conflict with us potentially benefits from it.
fredrichlariccia says
Flynn’s guilty plea proves one thing for certain — Trump lied when he said none of his people had anything to do with the Russians.
fredrichlariccia says
“It’s bullshit if they don’t let Hillary Clinton drag Flynn to prison in Wonder Women’s lasso and whatnot.” George Wallace
It was the fanatic Flynn who led the hysterical screams at the RNC Convention : “LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP.”
Ah, karma.