laurel

Person #2208: 250 Posts

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  1. LGBT equality & BMG (0 Replies)

    BMG has been a tremendous resource for sharing information about LGBT equality issues in MA. I can’t thank the editors enough for working to create a safe space for LGBT people and allies to advocate for progress. And of course debate tactics. Where else could we have debated the pros and cons of being a “process liberal”, for example? :D

    Happy anniversary, BMG!

  2. you misunderstand me (0 Replies)

    I never said that I don’t need to know anything about Catholic theology. I’m a lifelong “defensive” learner. But that doesn’t mean I particularly care about the form it all takes. At least, not when it’s not hurting me and mine.

  3. No, you're completely misrepresenting me (1 Reply)

    Do you see the bullet points I posted above? Do you see marriage in any of them? Marriage is important, but the LGBT rights movement is much, much bigger than marriage. You are the one who keeps mentioning marriage!

    When Obama came into office, he was opposed to same-sex marriage but almost immediately began making other pro-LGBT equality policy changes and using the bully pulpit. Look at the graphic here to understand all the ways that Obama was superior to the RCC from Day 1 in office. The RCC has NEVER supported any LGBT equality initiatives. This is reality. No misrepresenting my words and views will change it.

  4. Well good, you found one bishop who says gays are human and have dignity (1 Reply)

    …and he respects our “same-sex unions”, which apparently means relationships, not civil marriages. And some others signed onto the working paper with him, so he’s not alone in these thoughts. But you have not provided even one name of a member of the hierarchy who is standing up for EQUALITY. Saying that gays deserve to be treated nicely is not the same as taking a stand for equality, and no member of the RCC hierarchy that I’m aware of has done that.

    There was one priest, Father Geoff Farrow, who spoke out in favor of same-sex marriage when Prop 8 was on the CA ballot in 2008. He was quickly expelled from the church. As far as I know, he’s alone in taking a public stand for equality.

    So, going back to what started this sub-thread, it’s ludicrous to compare Obama 2010 to the RCC. The RCC is 100% opposed to LGBT equality. You really need to admit that to remain credible.

  5. Um, no. Wow, just, no. (2 Replies)

    Obama in 2010 never:
    * Said that gays are intrinsically disordered.
    * Claimed that there was any such thing as “just discrimination” against gays
    * Opposed protecting gays against employment discrimination
    * Opposed respecting the self-determination of anyone to declare and express their gender

    And the Church is nowhere near being ahead of the Republicans, who at least do have a few among their ranks both high and low who are willing to stand up and vote for equality. Where are the bishops speaking out for equality? Good luck naming even one who isn’t retired.

  6. Personally, I could give a rip about the theology. (3 Replies)

    But I care what they say and do for two reasons:
    1. The RCC *does* have enormous political power. *Everyone* should care what they’re cooking up, because it will affect you through their considerable political involvement. The RCC isn’t content to say “none of our business” when it comes to non-Catholics, so say the same about the RCC at your own risk.
    2. I care how any institution treats my LGBT brothers and sisters. I give special attention to mega institutions like the RCC that is so big and powerful that it has permanent observer status at the UN. No other religious institution is treated with such deference.

  7. Vatican says "Just kidding" (0 Replies)

    From CNN:

    In response to such reactions, the Vatican backtracked a bit Tuesday. In a statement, it said the report on gays and lesbians was a “working document,” not the final word from Rome.

    The Vatican also said that it wanted to welcome gays and lesbians in the church, but not create “the impression of a positive evaluation” of same-sex relationships, or, for that matter, of unmarried couples who live together.

  8. yeah well (2 Replies)

    I’ve been discriminated against by the RCC since birth, so don’t expect people like me to turn cartwheels over vague notions of some possible positive movement in some nebulous future. I live here and now. The RCC actively works to hurt me here and now, this very minute of this very day. You will understand if I demand proof of change and some measure of reparations before I go ga-ga over Francis’s efforts. Until that happens, I hope you enjoy your cloud, since there’s no room on it for the “intrinsically disordered” as per order of the RCC.

  9. Will the bishops fight for ENDA like they fought for DOMA? (1 Reply)

    The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Francis’s intentions are all well and good, but to make me a “believer” the bishops must demonstrate that they mean what Francis tells them to say about gays having “gifts”. Are they willing to do what it takes to make sure we can use our gifts without discrimination? They could do so very easily by using their political might to finally get a robust Employment Non-Discrimination Act passed. Or better yet, adding “sexual orientation and gender identity and expression” to the list of categories protected against discrimination in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Let’s see what, if any, actions follow Francis’s words.

  10. Yes, it's still in the Catechism, and that's a HUGE problem (1 Reply)

    Francis is saying “you can still stay in the choir, oh, but this is what we think of you and don’t even try to take communiton:

    Chastity and homosexuality

    2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

    2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

    2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

    As for Cupich, he was an active participant in the RCC’s effort to prevent marriage equality in Washington state. He even went the extra mile to make a series of targeted anti-gay videos. Cupich may be right on some issues, but he’s proven himself to be a hateful bigot when it comes to gays. He just doesn’t use the same vitriolic terminology as George and others.

  11. They still call us "Intrinsically disordered" (1 Reply)

    As a non-Catholic, I welcome a change in tone, especially if the American bishops stop their shameful, hideous anti-gay rants and political campaigns. However, the church still categorizes gays at “intrinsically disordered”, so it’s hard for me to understand how the church is going to have their cake and eat it too. “Bubba may be a hell-bent pervert, but he does contribute to the neighborhood by keeping his lawn looking so nice.” That’s essentially what Francis is saying, when you view his new approach in the context of church doctrine.

  12. It won't be quiet for long (0 Replies)

    People are already marrying in several of those states. The AG of VA recently posted this: https://twitter.com/AGMarkHerring/status/519171570938687488

  13. Is Ed going to challenge Hillary? (0 Replies)

    I can’t imagine any reason to be hoarding unless he’s planning to run for higher office. That, or he’s paranoid.

  14. Lively will also get the anti-gays. (1 Reply)

    They may largely be the same voters as the anti-choicers, but not completely.

  15. I disagree (2 Replies)

    When you hold a town meeting in NH to support your candidacy as US Senator from NH, you, not your big name draw, should stick around for at least a minute to talk to the press afterwards. It’s simply bad form to not bother to show up for the entirety of your own events, then give the excuse that you’re hightailing it to some other state.

  16. "He's gotta get to Boston" (1 Reply)

    A member of the press asked McCain wasn’t it odd that he, not the candidate, was talking to the press. A handler answered that “He’s gotta get to Boston”, which it sounds like McCain then repeated. Way to win NH voters’ hearts, Scotto!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tXCwHW5CcE

  17. "single payer" (3 Replies)

    Do most voters actually know what that means? I highly doubt it, and Berwick never defines the term.