Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

Joe the non-plumber turns Joe the Reporter – and goes to Israel

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Here is a link with photos and videos and Joe Reporting.  There is even a poll [Ernie take note}:

http://news.aol.com/article/jo…

I am going to echo that poll, below.  This tragic situation which results for a cycle of vengeance will only be resolved by a very non-Western, non-Arabic philosophy like Ubuntu, or that of Ghandi – at least in my opinion.  

But those who throw rockets should not expect roses, to be sure.

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  2. I’ve responded to this before. Maybe a table would help:

    Colonial India and India National Congress
    Gaza and Hamas

    Clear, simple, internationally recognized goal: independence from India.
    Unclear goal:

    • Maximum goals (return) unachievable.
    • Intermediate goals difficult to define

    British continued to be present in India. Civil disobedience could effect Britons.
    Israelis have withdrawn from Gaza. Civil disobedience affects no one but other Gazans.

    British justified their occupation with doctrines like the “white man’s burden”. They were bringing civilization to India. They imagined they were doing good for Indians and were able to rationalize their actions that way. Exposing the falsity of this situation undermined colonialism at home.
    The Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has never been described as “for” the Palestinians. It was explicitly for Israeli security. Further, significant elements on the Israeli far right are unabashedly eliminationist. (Just like Samuels I and II.)

    The British were sensitive to moral pressure.
    The Israeli Right is insensitive to moral pressure: they still celebrate having bulldozed a peace activist to her death. The Israeli Left is certainly sensitive to moral pressure; they just are not that strong.

    Indian religious traditions were open to ideas like civil disobedience.
    Hamas does not come from traditions within Islam that are remotely open to such ideas.

    <

    p>Gandhism is not some kind of magic peace powder that we can sprinkle over situations and make them get all better.

      • As in the advice on how to deal with Amelkites in I Samuel 15:3. (“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”) One should be careful here: Jewish tradition generally appears to handle such passages very differently from the inerrancy-of-the-Bible crowd on America’s religious right.

        <

        p>Admittedly this is a far right position. However, it’s not too difficult to stumble on others on the right in Israel who refer to Arabs as “vermin”. Gandhian civil disobedience will not be an effective road to persuasion with such people.

        <

        p>By my understanding, there is an enormous spectrum of thought in Israeli politics. The Likud does not represent all Israelis and there are parts of Israeli society who show exemplary moral courage. Would that those elements of Israeli society were stronger in the Knesset.

          • I think those who favor, say ethnic cleansing, are just as happy for the icky people to move some place preferably far, far away as they are for them to be killed. So I think there’s a position just somewhat more humane than genocide (without being humane) that involves forcible removal.

            <

            p>I’m not sure that I’m using these terms as accurately as I should, either, and your questions may be revealing that.

        • could be used in a metaphoric sense to describe Hamas’s view about Israel. What do you think would happen if Hamas possessed extremely powerful weapons such as jet fighters, powerful missiles, tanks or WMDs? Would they use them on Israel?

            1. It has no bearing on whether Hamas should take a page from Gandhi.
            2. Hamas is not about to receive a shipment of jet fighters, powerful missiles, tanks, or WMDs. Heck they have trouble with food, medicine, and electricity.
            3. One answer to this question might consist of picking out four leaders in Hamas by name and examining their views. Anything less specific might only pass muster on talk radio.

            • I was to Samuel 15:3 not Gandhi.

              <

              p>No kidding Hamas won’t get those weapons nor should they… EVER. My question to you, the last in a long list of questions you run away from, was IF they had any of those weapons do you “think” Hamas would hesitate to use them on Israel? Simple question. Then we can talk genocide.

              • Sometimes the most informative answer to a question is to point out how the question has the wrong assumptions, is based on misinformation, or gives an uninformative answer. To people who have fallen in love with their pet stupid questions, that can be very frustrating. Met with that answer, a wise person might argue why the question is useful. A less wise person might merely whine.

                <

                p>A question about what I “think” is essentially an attempt to drag me down to the level of prejudices. Well, I could play that, but I’m not a teenager. And yes, I know Hamas is very, very, very bad. So I think you’re asking a stupid question.

                <

                p>It would be more informative to know how much Hamas is anti-Zionist versus anti-Semitic. Would they be happy living in a larger, secular Palestine where they might live beside Jews? Do they have any kind of program or plan to achieve their goals? Are they just rather disorganized religious fanatics? I don’t know, but it would be nice to learn more.

                <

                p>Your military question is also a bit boneheaded in that there are a lot of Arabs living within Israel proper. Who knows whether Hamas would sacrifice those people or not if it had ray guns or control over a death star. Sometimes what is meant by “destroying Israel” means genocide; sometimes it seems to mean what, say, “destroying the Soviet Union” meant, i.e., forcing a change in government. All this rhetoric is pretty ugly in any case. Since any resolution of the Israel-Palestine mess is going to involve Hamas, a careful understanding of Hamas, its factions, positions, and ideology would be useful.

                <

                p>Anyway, I think it’s a patriotic duty for Americans to become informed about the Middle East and asking comic book level questions is, well, objectively unpatriotic.

                • Footnote: a developmental need of teenagers and young adults is to define who they are. People of that age often makes such pronouncements. This is a good and healthy thing. It’s just not where I find myself at this point in my life.

                  <

                  p>So I hope my comment “I am not a teenager” is not taken amiss by the teenagers among us.

                • …about Arab Israelis

                  <

                  p>Ezra:

                  <

                  p>

                  Back when Jimmy Carter was being torn apart for suggesting that Israel’s occupation of Palestine had echoes of apartheid, I remember a lot being made of Israel’s superb treatment of Israeli Arabs and the political freedom it offered them. As of yesterday, that point of distinction dissolved:

                  The Central Elections Committee on Monday banned Arab political parties from running in next month’s parliamentary elections, drawing accusations of racism by an Arab lawmaker who said he would challenge the decision in the country’s Supreme Court.

                • Although I’ve never heard a teacher comment about “boneheaded” questions so you are unique there.

                  <

                  p>So far you are the odds on favorite for the 2009 Pontification Award, certainly will get my vote.

                  <

                  p>I guess I would fall into the “whine” category… boo fucking hoo.

                  <

                  p>A question asking what you “think” is not to “drag you down the level of prejudices”. It is to get your opinion, simple. Is there a rule on this blog that everytime somebody posts a comment it has to be a “fact” that they can back up with empirical data? Is nothing subjective? Will I have to provide a polygraph report showing my answer of “Blue” being my favorite color truly is a fact and not an opinion. Even a blabber mouth like you will not change blue from being my favorite color.

                  <

                  p>Regarding my BONEHEAD (all caps) question…

                  <

                  p>

                  Your military question is also a bit boneheaded in that there are a lot of Arabs living within Israel proper. Who knows whether Hamas would sacrifice those people or not if it had ray guns or control over a death star. Sometimes what is meant by “destroying Israel” means genocide; sometimes it seems to mean what, say, “destroying the Soviet Union” meant, i.e., forcing a change in government. All this rhetoric is pretty ugly in any case. Since any resolution of the Israel-Palestine mess is going to involve Hamas, a careful understanding of Hamas, its factions, positions, and ideology would be useful.

                  <

                  p>Has the existance of an arab population in Israel stopped the indiscriminate firing of hamas rockets? Did Hamas terrorists check for arabs on buses they blew up?  Do hamas suicide bombers use explosives which do not harm arabs in Israeli markets? Sounds to me like Hamas would kill their Mothers if they could take out a few Israelis at the same time. And I will give less credit to Hamas than you when you equate their “destroy Israel” with forcing a change in government. Do you want to buy a bridge KBusch? Next you’ll be telling me there is no fat in the state budget…

                  <

                  p>I thought I was being patriotic, according to Joe Biden, by paying my taxes. (BTW… Does that mean Tim Geithner was being UNpatriotic by skipping on his taxes?). So now, according to you at least,  I have to go find some hamas dudes and ask them some questions about Israel or I’m not being Patriotic. I’ll comment on how the questioning goes… if they don’t blow my ass up! That would make a great comic book.

                • Ezra:

                  One more point: Part of the theory behind isolating Hamas and harming Gazans is that nothing can be worse than Hamas. It is an Islamic terrorist organization bent on Israel’s destruction. The exhausted populace will have no home other than Fatah. But at one point, Israel’s policy was to isolate Fatah and harm the Palestinians that pledged allegiance to Arafat because nothing could be worse than a revolutionary terrorist outfit that killed civilians and helped coordinate the attacks of surrounding Arab governments on the Jewish state. But just as Hamas was worse than Fatah, there’s much that can be worse than Hamas. And just as recognizing Fatah has transitioned from unimaginable to preferable, so too might Hamas’s pragmatists eventually ascend, and seem rational in comparison to the Salafist maniacs who now nourish themselves on Palestinian desperation.

                • Careless verbosity: if this were my comment and if I were a conservative trying to get others to agree with me, I would have axed the comments about Biden and taxes and so on.

                  <

                  p>Like it or not, you represent conservative thought on this thread. By providing “thought” instead of thought, you make it easier for liberals to dismiss conservatism.

                  <

                  p>That’s your goal, right? You really are a secret liberal.

                • You a conservative and me a secret liberal… am I living in a Twilight Zone episode? It is so scary to think that I represent conservative thought on this thread. I would readily admit to doing a shallow job for my conservative brethren. I could not possibly stand up to icons such as yourself. I would reply quicker to your comments but it takes me time to look up the meaning of many of the words you use. Curious about one thing, why does supporting Israel (although I have been labeled an anti-semite) and condemning Hamas fall down as a conservative/liberal argument?

                  <

                  p>You may be right about me being a secret liberal as I have thought about getting an Obama tattoo. The problem is I don’t know who’s tattoo I would put on my other ass cheek. BTW, where are you watching the “historic” inauguration? I want it to be someplace that I can remember for the rest of my life, maybe get a room at the Taj for the day/night with my wife.

                  <

                  p>I was just thinking of how we could use the $100+ MILLION being spent on this event and how indicative it is of the new administration’s priorities. How many teachers, firefighters, mental health workers, soldier’s armor, youth activity programs, domestic violence programs… could be supported by all this tax payer money that will be FLUSHED in one day (maybe 10 hours)? Maybe I am a secret liberal since surely criticizing the incoming President for spending lavishly for an Inauguration is/was a liberal credo when GW had his inauguration celebrations.

                • …with the previous night’s Jay Severin show.  The Biden thing is definitely a Severin thing.  Here’s the audio.

                  <

                  p>

                  Taxes — and this is great you know I went on for the last twenty years when I was paying 50% of my income. To the government you know. I must admit you I actually felt patriotic. I felt as though I had been involved I thought with half I had stepped up. But I’m glad Joe Biden has made this clear higher taxes are. Patriotic — about patriotism it’s about stepping up its not getting involved. Okay joke. Have I told you recently here on the radio to kiss my ass. Right and — here 969 WTKK. I’m — every — or the best and brightest most curious Pashtun audience in radio anywhere. We’re also the biggest audience in New England radio for what we do.

                  <

                  p> You’ll probably recognize this screed, as well:

                  <

                  p>

                  Every time a Democrat opens her or his mouth. Every idea they have ever had. Requires. Your money more up your money. And or your freedom. That’s what it means to be a Democrat. For all these years of trying finally came up with a yesterday I think it was Meredith with whom I had the the pleasure of conversing. Here on 969 WTKK. And I some of the here it is Meredith. Here’s the difference between boys and girls. If you wake up in the morning. And you need. Somebody else’s stuff. In order to get through the day if you need the government. To be an instrument a robbery to take other people stopped to give — in order to get through your day you’re a Democrat. If you wake up in the morning and say I’ll take care of myself and my Pamela thank you just don’t anybody bother me — take my stuff. All do all do what I’m supposed to do I’ll take care of myself my family. Just please please don’t hold me up for any more of my money or my freedom then you’re Republican.

                • Somehow I didn’t want to know that.

                  <

                  p>Was I wrong? He doesn’t represent conservatism on this thread.

                  <

                  p>He merely represents Jay Severin.

                  • I thought you missed me!

                  <

                  p>- I’m out on work release.

                  <

                  p>- God is punishing me.

                  <

                  p>- God is punishing you.

                  <

                  p>- I need to get smarter and not be so stupid or boneheaded so I figured I’d learn from the smartest people I know. But they were busy so I thought I’d talk to you.

                  <

                  p>- I’m lonely.

                  <

                  p>- RMG pays me to post here.

                  <

                  p>- It my job as part of the Right Wing propaganda machine.

                  <

                  p>- I donated $100 to keep this site open so they let me stay, for awhile anyways…

  3. In an unrelated development, there’s Jeff Goldberg’s op-ed in the New York Times called “Why Israel Can’t Make Peace with Hamas”. Possibly this is worth a separate post.

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