It seems to me that if you want to bypass the ID law, you just vote absentee.
<
p>I would also imagine that asking people to present an ID, when they never had to do it before, is just going to piss off voters of all political stripes. Furthermore, such a requirement would double the time it takes to get a ballot and would lead to longer lines at polling places during busy elections, which will also piss people off.
<
p>I find it highly unlikely that more than a handful of people would risk prosecution by lying about their identity just in order to cast a vote in an election, especially when most eligible voters are too lazy or apathetic to bother to register and vote at all.
…would you be surprised to know that the only case of actual voter fraud being prosecuted right now is the Republican Indiana Secretary of State?
christophersays
…but IDs need to be provided for free to anyone who doesn’t already possess an acceptable form. I’ve always found the no-evidence argument unconvincing. In my town all I have to do is give my name with absolutely no confirmation. There is nothing to prevent me from saying I’m somebody else who I’m sure will not actually vote himself. I say just do it and thus eliminate any question, even of such fraud is not rampant.
Merely making them free is inadequate. There should be restrictions on the amount of bureaucratic roadblocks that can be erected by the state for obtaining an ID. Moreover the state should be made to prove that whatever bureaucratic procedures they do implement doesn’t unfairly or unreasonably impinge on any particular constituency.
christophersays
When I recently visited my alma mater I went to the ID card office to obtain an alumnus ID. I filled out a half-sheet worth of paperwork, got my picture taken, picture processed through machine and attached to plastic card with my name. I was out the door, card in hand, within 5 minutes. I see no reason why a new voter can’t walk into town hall and go through the same process. Even then I would only have people who couldn’t show other photo ID do this.
<
p>It sounds like some balk at even the slightest extra step to insure intregrity of the process. ThinkProgress has an article about an Ohio law they make sound horrible. It requires voters show one of the following:
<
p>
an Ohio driver’s license, state ID, military ID, U.S. passport, or “a new, free photo ID that State Bureau of Motor Vehicles would dispense to indigent citizens who qualify.”
<
p>I would have added student ID, which this law leaves out, but other than that this hardly seems like a hurdle, especially given the first option which almost everyone has I would imagine.
<
p>If someone wants to sue a state for being overrestrictive, fine, but I believe the burden should generally be on the party challenging constitutionality of a law. Calling it a 21st century poll tax like one of the quotes in the linked article does is really over the top.
… roadblocks is a solution. My point is that this remedy needs the strength of law because otherwise opportunists will jump on any weaknesses. Not codifying these remediations of the inherent vulnerabilities of such a system in law would be an invitation for those who would to game the system, as history has shown us they will.
Let’s just have a national ID card, issued for free by the government to everyone at birth. That would take care of the voter ID problem, and what could possibly go wrong?
christophersays
…but in general I’ve never been as paranoid about this idea as some.
lightirissays
is clearly much too, um, arid. đŸ˜‰
hrs-kevinsays
What do you think will happen if you pick someone else’s name and it turns out that they actually voted? They are almost definitely going to ask you for ID in that situation, and you will likely be prosecuted. At my polling place, there are almost always policeman at the polling place, and I can’t imagine anyone actually taking such a stupid risk for such a small payback.
<
p>As long as we are going to check things “just to make sure”, why don’t we also require everyone to bring in their birth certificate or naturalization papers to make sure that no mistake was made? I think it is totally silly to argue for extra time consuming hurdles to be imposed on voting, when there is no even remotely demonstrated problem being addressed, and when we have very poor voter participation in this country as it stands.
<
p>
christophersays
In my town you can see the list the checkers are working with, and thus you can see whose name has been crossed off on whose hasn’t. You can point to a name and say that’s me, as long as you know the person’s address and are sure the person won’t vote. I could easily pose as my away-at-college brother who unfortunately generally doesn’t vote. If the real person did happen to show up later and he shows proper ID, I would be long gone and nobody would know whom to come after. Just flash a license for crying out loud. If my university requires student ID to vote for student government elections, certainly it’s reasonable for the real world to have those standards.
p>BTW – the whole cheat by using absentee ballot thing? That would be mail fraud, a Federal charge, so there is a penalty built in there.
hrs-kevinsays
It is already illegal to vote under someone else’s name, so there is a built in penalty there.
<
p>We are talking about an extra enforcement mechanism. What similar mechanism exists to ensure that fraud does not occur in absentee voting? It seems to me that it would be ridiculously easy for a family member to request absentee ballots for the entire family and vote for all of them. In fact, I am sure that happens much more than people actually going into the polls fraudulently.
hesterprynnesays
The state says they’ll give you a free voter ID. But what if they say that first you have to present a valid driver’s license (you don’t drive) or a birth certificate (you used to have one but it must have gotten lost during a move).
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p>A copy of a birth certificate costs $11.
<
p>Unless the state is going to pay that cost, too, it looks like a poll tax to me.
p>If you want to impose a requirement that everybody has to have a birth certificate, that’s one thing (and not a good one, in my opinion), but that requirement shouldn’t be enforced by making a person’s right to vote contingent on compliance. Especially where’s there’s no evidence of a compelling state interest in combatting voter fraud (because there’s no voter fraud).
<
p>And I thought you were the small government one.
Like a receipt. The original was filed for reference at the local town hall. It will not be the only reason you need it – you will have to produce it over and over for a variety of reasons – banking, employment, etc. (Even politics, but we won’t go there). If you lose your free one, you can get a replacement for a fee.
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p>You argue you can’t provide a certificate because you lost it, so you shouldn’t have to buy a copy to get a voting ID. But it is your carelessness that deprived you of your free copy.
<
p>(And the people who have been fined for voter fraud will be contacting you to testify for their appeals)
christophersays
Start with a bill or whatever. Everyone has to start with something. Public education is free too, but you need a birth certificate to prove age to register for kindergarten. I for one believe the integrity of the process is important enough, regardless of actual prevalence of problems, to put these small safeguards in place.
hrs-kevin says
It seems to me that if you want to bypass the ID law, you just vote absentee.
<
p>I would also imagine that asking people to present an ID, when they never had to do it before, is just going to piss off voters of all political stripes. Furthermore, such a requirement would double the time it takes to get a ballot and would lead to longer lines at polling places during busy elections, which will also piss people off.
<
p>I find it highly unlikely that more than a handful of people would risk prosecution by lying about their identity just in order to cast a vote in an election, especially when most eligible voters are too lazy or apathetic to bother to register and vote at all.
david says
almost never happens. This is one of the most popular of the right-wing paranoid fantasy themes. No basis in reality whatsoever.
mr-lynne says
Brayton:
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p>
christopher says
…but IDs need to be provided for free to anyone who doesn’t already possess an acceptable form. I’ve always found the no-evidence argument unconvincing. In my town all I have to do is give my name with absolutely no confirmation. There is nothing to prevent me from saying I’m somebody else who I’m sure will not actually vote himself. I say just do it and thus eliminate any question, even of such fraud is not rampant.
mr-lynne says
Merely making them free is inadequate. There should be restrictions on the amount of bureaucratic roadblocks that can be erected by the state for obtaining an ID. Moreover the state should be made to prove that whatever bureaucratic procedures they do implement doesn’t unfairly or unreasonably impinge on any particular constituency.
christopher says
When I recently visited my alma mater I went to the ID card office to obtain an alumnus ID. I filled out a half-sheet worth of paperwork, got my picture taken, picture processed through machine and attached to plastic card with my name. I was out the door, card in hand, within 5 minutes. I see no reason why a new voter can’t walk into town hall and go through the same process. Even then I would only have people who couldn’t show other photo ID do this.
<
p>It sounds like some balk at even the slightest extra step to insure intregrity of the process. ThinkProgress has an article about an Ohio law they make sound horrible. It requires voters show one of the following:
<
p>
<
p>I would have added student ID, which this law leaves out, but other than that this hardly seems like a hurdle, especially given the first option which almost everyone has I would imagine.
<
p>If someone wants to sue a state for being overrestrictive, fine, but I believe the burden should generally be on the party challenging constitutionality of a law. Calling it a 21st century poll tax like one of the quotes in the linked article does is really over the top.
mr-lynne says
… roadblocks is a solution. My point is that this remedy needs the strength of law because otherwise opportunists will jump on any weaknesses. Not codifying these remediations of the inherent vulnerabilities of such a system in law would be an invitation for those who would to game the system, as history has shown us they will.
david says
Let’s just have a national ID card, issued for free by the government to everyone at birth. That would take care of the voter ID problem, and what could possibly go wrong?
christopher says
…but in general I’ve never been as paranoid about this idea as some.
lightiris says
is clearly much too, um, arid. đŸ˜‰
hrs-kevin says
What do you think will happen if you pick someone else’s name and it turns out that they actually voted? They are almost definitely going to ask you for ID in that situation, and you will likely be prosecuted. At my polling place, there are almost always policeman at the polling place, and I can’t imagine anyone actually taking such a stupid risk for such a small payback.
<
p>As long as we are going to check things “just to make sure”, why don’t we also require everyone to bring in their birth certificate or naturalization papers to make sure that no mistake was made? I think it is totally silly to argue for extra time consuming hurdles to be imposed on voting, when there is no even remotely demonstrated problem being addressed, and when we have very poor voter participation in this country as it stands.
<
p>
christopher says
In my town you can see the list the checkers are working with, and thus you can see whose name has been crossed off on whose hasn’t. You can point to a name and say that’s me, as long as you know the person’s address and are sure the person won’t vote. I could easily pose as my away-at-college brother who unfortunately generally doesn’t vote. If the real person did happen to show up later and he shows proper ID, I would be long gone and nobody would know whom to come after. Just flash a license for crying out loud. If my university requires student ID to vote for student government elections, certainly it’s reasonable for the real world to have those standards.
peter-porcupine says
Already twenty-seven states require ID at the polling place.
<
p>BTW – the whole cheat by using absentee ballot thing? That would be mail fraud, a Federal charge, so there is a penalty built in there.
hrs-kevin says
It is already illegal to vote under someone else’s name, so there is a built in penalty there.
<
p>We are talking about an extra enforcement mechanism. What similar mechanism exists to ensure that fraud does not occur in absentee voting? It seems to me that it would be ridiculously easy for a family member to request absentee ballots for the entire family and vote for all of them. In fact, I am sure that happens much more than people actually going into the polls fraudulently.
hesterprynne says
The state says they’ll give you a free voter ID. But what if they say that first you have to present a valid driver’s license (you don’t drive) or a birth certificate (you used to have one but it must have gotten lost during a move).
<
p>A copy of a birth certificate costs $11.
<
p>Unless the state is going to pay that cost, too, it looks like a poll tax to me.
peter-porcupine says
hesterprynne says
Q.E.D.
<
p>If you want to impose a requirement that everybody has to have a birth certificate, that’s one thing (and not a good one, in my opinion), but that requirement shouldn’t be enforced by making a person’s right to vote contingent on compliance. Especially where’s there’s no evidence of a compelling state interest in combatting voter fraud (because there’s no voter fraud).
<
p>And I thought you were the small government one.
<
p>
peter-porcupine says
Like a receipt. The original was filed for reference at the local town hall. It will not be the only reason you need it – you will have to produce it over and over for a variety of reasons – banking, employment, etc. (Even politics, but we won’t go there). If you lose your free one, you can get a replacement for a fee.
<
p>You argue you can’t provide a certificate because you lost it, so you shouldn’t have to buy a copy to get a voting ID. But it is your carelessness that deprived you of your free copy.
<
p>(And the people who have been fined for voter fraud will be contacting you to testify for their appeals)
christopher says
Start with a bill or whatever. Everyone has to start with something. Public education is free too, but you need a birth certificate to prove age to register for kindergarten. I for one believe the integrity of the process is important enough, regardless of actual prevalence of problems, to put these small safeguards in place.