How is Gabrieli the party favorite all of the sudden?
Writes WashPost blogger Chris Cilizza in his Friday gubernatorial roundup:
7. Massachusetts: The Bay State governor’s race drops two slots this month largely due to gains made by Republicans in Michigan and Wisconsin. National Democrats got good news during the Massachusetts party convention earlier this month when wealthy businessman Chris Gabrieli qualified — barely — for the Sept. 19 Democratic primary. Gabrieli is widely regarded by neutral party strategists as their best chance to defeat Lt. Gov. Kerry Healey (R) in the fall. On paper, this race should be a victory for Massachusetts Democrats, but they have shown an amazing ability to snap defeat from the jaws of victory in recent gubernatorial elections over the past decade, so we are treading carefully. (Previous ranking: 5)
whoa. which party strategists would these be? Clizza ought to get some new sources, or some actual Massachusetts sources, b/c that’s not what I’m hearing.
anybody want to prove me wrong and explain just why Gabrieli is our best chance? he’s got no ground game, and all of the money in the world hasn’t worked for him in 1998 and 2002. why should it work now?
<
p>
Probably the same ones that thought Shannon O’Brien would be their best chance to beat Romney.
two corporate / mainstream âbloggersâ who are not worth either reading or citing.
that journalists easily become enmeshed with the crowd they’re covering, particularly in politics. But I’m a tad hesitant to lump Cilizza and Keller together, simply because Cilizza appears to come across with more substance. Keller strikes me as the worst type of reporter, the celebrity reporter – one who is so full of himself so as not to be able to do his job properly.
<
p>
as you may recall, Keller single-handedly dredged up an epithet hurled at Deval Patrick by a single conservative in 1994 and based an entire article in Boston magazine on that very epithet (which I won’t reprint here.) I don’t think Keller did it b/c he genuinely sees Patrick that way, I think he did it to garner attention for himself (the most important man in the room, clearly.)
<
p>
in short, Cilizza is a journalist, Keller is a wannabe celebrity.
The Battle to be “the most important person in the room”.
I love the way he comes in to an event, talks ABOUT it while it is happening, EXPLAINS it to you, and then walks out without actually LISTENING to what isbeing said, like John Henning. At LEAST Keller DOES listen. Some.
<
p>
But neither can hold a candle to Janet Wu for idiocy!
Can’t allow any other opinions that don’t follow the party line. What’s this world coming to???
I’ll take that Kool-Aid on the rocks. Thanks. 😉
<
p>
I am a Deval supporter. But no one has yet to provide a solid answer why Gabrieli is all of the sudden the favorite to win in November.
<
p>
Maybe I should be the one to get new sources. Hell, my favorite one is a jolly, round fellow who’s always shouting “Oh Yeah!” Go figure.
Maybe they know something we don’t know?
Remember when Wes Clark was the new favorite to win the nomination and the presidency three years ago?
<
p>
Gabrieli is new on the radar screen and gets the novelty bounce, same one Patrick was enjoying at the beginning of the year. In a couple months they’ll all settle down. Hopefully we’ll debate on the merits rather than attacks, though early signs from those two campaigns aren’t encouraging. (Got polled basically on attack lines against each nominee last night, no questions about Republicans — I suspect it was the Gabs campaign). I can’t see how any of the three is a “favorite” yet, when what polling we have shows the race typically within the margin of error.
Chris is the front-runner in the race. Wait until the next poll to see by just how much. The reason is simple, he is the ONLY candidate from either party in the race with a record of accomplishment in Massachusetts on the issues that matter most to progressives. Add the ability to finance getting the message out about that record without becoming beholden to interest groups, and you have a very powerful combo.
<
p>
In other sections of this blog, folks have harped on examples of millionaire candidates who could not “buy” an election. If Chris were simply buying a huge blocks of airtime to do what Deval is doing right now–spinning promises with no record to back it up–you would be right to say that his money would not matter. You need look no further than his failed congressional bid in 1998 to see that.
<
p>
What changed since 1998 is the extraordinary string of accomplishments on education, after school, inner city economic development, and yes, stem cell research, that he has championed and poured his millions into. While Deval was reviewing the specs for his Berkshire house, Chris was putting millions of his own funds into Boston’s After School Partnership.
<
p>
I’ve asked on BMG earlier for Deval’s supporters to raise a single example of a contribution that HE has made to make Massachusetts a better place. Other than volunteering for the Harvard Law School clinic 20 years ago, you guys have come up dry.
<
p>
THAT’s why Chris is the front runner.
though supporters of other campaigns like to think he doesn’t.
In both last month National Journal and CQ Weekly they praised Gabs over both Reilly and Patrick…..
some actual dirt on who thinks Gabrieli is a front-runner.
<
p>
more? anybody got the links? I couldn’t find the CQ article.
Chris Gabrieli is the favorite to beat Kerry Healey because he simply is the best candidate. He is the best candidate because he comes from the private sector and is a successful business man. Massachusetts voters like candidates with succesful business backrounds. He worked hard and is a self-made millionaire. The public likes success stories. He has taken the money that he earned and invested millions into important social causes such as after school programs and stem cell research. Therefore, not only is Chris a successful businessman but he invests money in socially progressive programs. Massachusetts voters are socially progressive and like a candidate who has taken his time and hard-earned money to make their lives and the lives of their children better. He received the most votes of ANY democratic candidate in the Massachusetts Democratic primary in 2002. Tjerefore he has demonstrated that he is electable. He has been vetted. Chris is the only candidate who has run in a gubenortorial race before albeit as the LG but he has first hand knowledge of the challenges that a gubenortorial race poses. Gabs has debated Kerry Healey 3 times as the LG candidate. This fact is another invaluable experience that only Chris has. He is willing to put his money where his mouth is and invest in his own campaign. Therefore, the Republicans will not be able to out spend him. As has occured in the past, there will be no blackout time after the primary during which the Democratic nominee is scrambling to raise money because it was all spent winning the primary. Chris has said and shown that he is willing to invest his own personal money into his campaign something that Reilly CANNOT do and something that St. Patrick REFUSES to do. Consequently, by going on TV and radio, Chris has already succeeded in establishing himself and his image favorably with the Massachusetts electorate. As other Deval supporting bloggers have conceded, Chris appeals not only to Dems but to Independents and even some voters who have tended to vote for Republicans in the past. Lastly, he is currently leading comfortably in the polls. A fact that is not only supported by Gabs’ internal polling but also and obviously by Deval’s and Tom’s internal polls since they both have begun to attack him.
… if you can’t get people to contribute to your campaign, would be another reason to self-fund. Basic politics that if someone makes even a small donation to you, they are more invested in the process. Hence the strength on the ground of the Patrick campaign. I remain amused at the unctious remarks of some of the Gabrieli supporters about Patrick, becoming exactly what they do protest ;).
Chris Gabrieli has ONLY been in this gubenortorial campaign for approximately 8 weeks. What he and his campaign have accomplished in this very short period of time is historic and remarkable. As far as Chris’ fundraising goes, you need not worry. I have information from a very reliable source that Chris’ last fundraiser had over 500 attendees. I am sure that they were comprised of both large and small donation contributors and equally invested in Chris’ campaign as you are in Deval’s. But what I find most amusing is the fact that a lot of those who worship at the altar of St. Patrick think that ONLY they are committed to and vested in their candidate. Keep your head in the sand for all that I care. When you finally wake up (probably on September 20th), you will find that Chris Gabrieli is the Democratic nominee.
Did any Patrick supporters say that Reilly supporters don’t support their guy? I think Reilly’s support is pretty solidly proven.
<
p>
However, Gabrieli has been in the race such a short time that it’s hard to figure where his support actually is. He has the “new car” smell that Patrick had just a couple of months ago. But Gabrieli is going to have fewer volunteers and donors than the other two candidates, which will eventually make a difference. One of the advantages of getting activists to your side first is that they’re unlikely to leave your side. Massachusetts is too small of a state for the media to completely win the battle.
<
p>
And what are we “head in the sand” supporters supposed to be energized about with a “nanny nanny boo boo” taunt like this? If you want to continue the cycle of internecine bloodshed that has killed us every four years, go right ahead. I’d rather say that each of the candidates has their strengths and weaknesses, all of them would be better than the alternative of Kerry Healey, and work from there.
Greencape, I’m just constantly amused by your inability to see that when you make your sarcastic remarks, you may as well be looking in the mirror. Talk about Kool Aid, lol! I hope Gabrieli has figured out that public funding is not raiding the taxpayers.
Mr.Leibowitz, public funding is funded by taxpapers who volutarily give a $1.00 at the time that their taxes are filed. Tax payers do fund the program and it is certainly and undisputedly raiding money from lower ballot Democratic candidates when Deval really does not need to do so. Having said that, it was certainly a decision that Deval had every right to make just as Chris had every right to opt out. Right?
<
p>
With respect to my so-called “sarcastic remarks”, if Deval supporters can dish it out, they better learn to take it because I will continue to respond in kind.
That you compare a voluntary contribution to taxes is kinda funny, well ok, more than kinda. I’m not really worried about “taking” anything from anyone either, I just continued to be amused at the how some supporters of other candidates behave exactly like the attributes they claim of others, with moralistic justifications as an added bonus!
<
p>
Congrats to Deval on his endorsement by the American Federation of Teachers!
You really shouldn’t swim in the Koolaid….it makes your skin such an icky green. Kinda matches the shirt, though.
<
p>
So, Steve- do all you folks have tunnel vision or haven’t you seen the nasty and sarcastic comments made by your side of the aisle. It must be part of the code- “do as I say…not as I do” Deval style.
I guess we’ll check with OCPF before the primary. Certainly, we’ll find that people have contributed to everybody’s race.
<
p>
Once again, certain individuals want to roll around in the mud on personal issues rather than address how the campaigns are tackling the real issues facing the Commonwealth, what they’ve done to address those issues in the past, and prove how they’ll do it if elected.
<
p>
I’m tired of hearing about how great somebody’s donor list or grassroots org is bigger than another’s. Big deal. An able campaigner does not make an able governor.
Not for nothing, but the national Dems and DC-types LOVE nothing more than a Democrat who can self fund.
The average voter is quite accustom to wealthy candidates (eg: Kennedy, Kerry, Romney etc. etc)and does NOT care if a candidate spends his own money. But I understand your frustration. IF I was supporting Deval, I would be disappointed too. A personally WEALTHY candidate such as DEVAL PATRICK who refuses to invest in his own campaign speaks volumes about his confidence in his own ability to actually win. Ever hear of: put up or shut up, if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen, put your money where your mouth is etc. These sayings all apply to Deval and his supporters. Do us all a favor and please take heed.
No need to get so defensive. I’m not disparaging Gabrieli at all. He’s got a lot of great qualities, and I’m sure he’d make a fine governor.
<
p>
That said, DC types love self-funding candidates because they don’t have to spend any money on them. Surely that is a contributing factor in Cilizza’s calculus.
and he said he had put about $375,000 of his own money into his campaign and that he considered that to be a lot of money
Isn’t that about the same amount of $ that Deval earned while he worked for the preditory lender, Ameriquest?
that Ameriquest was trying to move away from that lending practise and that they were looking to Deval Patrick to help them move in a different direction.
<
p>
I am a committed Deval Patrick supporter; I support him for many reasons one of which (besides his position on the state income tax rollback and his position on Cape Wind which is where I really agree with him on issues) is the fact that he appears to me to have the right combination of public service, business experience, and life experience to relate to the vast majority of people here in MA.
<
p>
A candidate does not have to have public service in MA to have performed public service. He served the entire nation as the head of the Civil Rights division in the Clinton Justice Department.
<
p>
He chooses to make MA his home. With his educational background he could have settled anywhere – he could have probably had Barack Obama’s seat in Illinois as easily as Obama achieved it. We are losing population in this state hand over fist – the fact that he stayed is a good thing. He must have liked Milton enough that he bought a home where he used to deliver papers. That is the American dream.
<
p>
It truly is a success story – and he remembers every step along the way. That doesn’t make him ST Patrick as you like to disparage him, it makes him uniquely qualified to win against Republicans who for 16 years have said that our nominees are “too insider” and not pro business enough.
He has worked hard for the grassroots support he has achieved. He said that that he loaned his campaign roughly the amount of money I mentioned to get started (As generally all candidates do to get a campaign up and running) and that he felt that it was a lot of money.
<
p>
$375,000 is a lot of money. Ask the people in Whitman who just voted down that amount for a prop2 1/2 override for almost that same amount if you don’t think it is a lot of money.
<
p>
Patrick didn’t “fix”the family company and become a multimillionaire but he did catch a break because some teacher saw his potential. Tom Reilly buckled down after a rocky start in his youth and also achieved what most people will never achieve – a high position of the public’s trust with winning high office. Admirable.
<
p>
I’ve met Chris Gabrieli in person and listened to him for nearly 2 hours last year. There is no doubt that he is a very smart man who is moved by certain issues. Does his story trump the other candidates? I don’t think so. I have my disagreements with his stance on the rollback and Cape Wind. I also think his joke about the $15.36 million isn’t funny and does the body politic no good if he actually spends even a fraction of that amount.
<
p>
So I’m not going to vote for him in the primary.
<
p> I’m going to give you a piece of advice for which I’m sure I’ll have my head chewed off: your vitriol towards others, your relentless, acrimonius, sarcastic comments do nothing for your candidate – Here is my advise: stick to issues – better yet, take some time away from the blogs or lurk to see how others conduct themselves. You are not helping your candidate if you keep it up.
I asked that once before to a Deval supporter and the essence of the answer was, “He’s not as passionate about his support as Deval”. You’re either for it or against it and Chris is for it.
I just sensed his support was equivocal- the part about concerns he has about the leasing of the land aspect sounded to me like a loophole, wiggle room,for him to try and get out of supporting it later –
<
p>
His support for it does not sound firm enough for me
<
p>
He’s had enough time to find out about his concerns about the “leasing of the land”;I think he should be questioned on this over and over again.
<
p>
I got this directly from his website:
<
p>
I actually switched my support from Deb Goldberg to Andrea Silbert because of this issue.
…but I’m not thrilled about the developer either. I suppose that may not be firm enough for you, but there is nothing I can do about it.
<
p>
It is a misrepresentation of the facts to IMPLY that Chris opposes Cape Wind, when you wrote, “I have my disagreements with his stance on the rollback and Cape Wind.”
<
p>
I think it is a lot different from your new statement that you “sensed his support was equivocal”.
<
p>
As his web site states, Chris is in support of the Cape Wind project. And speaking of the debate, it was Chris and Deval that ganged up on Reilly on his ill informed stand on Cape Wind. Chris and Deval were on the same side of that debate, becuase they are on the same side of the issue.
the support for Cape Wind does not seem unequivacol enough for me.
<
p>
It isn’t anything I can pinpoint – it is what I sense and I think he can be questioned on this issue again because his concerns about the leasing arrangements appear like an exit he has created for himself on this issue.
<
p>
Ted Kennedy looms large on this issue and his influence in a 3 way race is not to be taken lightly
<
p>
It is always in the back of my mind.
<
p>
You are right – only Gabrieli can “clean up”his statement on Cape Wind for me
that Deval made a very poor decision in fact it was a MAJOR LACK OF JUDGEMENT by working for and profiting by this preditory lender. Explain to the people who were taken advantage of and those whose homes were ultimately taken from them that Deval was helping them by working for this disgraceful corporation. I am sure that they would be very receptive. Why did Deval resign his position if his work with Ameriquest was so noble????????????
<
p>
Lend Fair
I happen to trust and accept what he says were his motives in accepting the position:that he could be more of an agent of change for the better for this corporation from the inside than from the outside screaming about what a rotten company this is.
<
p>
And the last time I checked there is nothing wrong with trying to make a corporation a more responsible corporate entity and to be compensated for that.
<
p>
As for why he resigned – this is directly from his website:
<
p>
If you would like to read the entire press release regarding this matter here is the link
…you apparently do not care one bit that you may alienate Patrick supporters to the point where they will not help Chris get elected in November? Or care if they stay home and not even vote for Chris in November?
<
p>
Brillant. Ya, fine the Deval folks are pissing you off so much that you won’t be helping Deval if he wins. You solution of continuing to grow the gap is a real winning solution.
<
p>
Like I saidm I don’t disagree with your overall sentiment. I just think you can show some maturity. And BTW, I personaly witness some Gabrieli Tellers acting like complete a-holes at the convention–First Essex Middlesex being one. So it’s a two way street, as always.
<
p>
And like I said, WWCD.
I don’t see how being an appointed DOJ official, though enforcing very important civil rights laws, prepare one to deal with the myriad of issues facing MA. He’s got deep experience as a lawyer, but not broad enough experience to handle day-to-day governance.
Assistant US Attorney General. While I’m not a Deval supporter, let’s not get into a pissing match about who is most qualified.
<
p>
Both Patrick and Gabrieli can point to recent Governor’s with similar resumes as their’s. Ironically, it is Reilly that is holding a position–Attorney General–that has NEVER by elected Governor from that position and no one seems to question his qualifications (nor am I).
Just to show what a complete loser I am, I must refute your point about no Attorney General ever ascending to the Governor’s chair:
<
p>
The venerable James Sullivan, AG in the 1790s and early 1800s was Gov. from 1807-1808.
<
p>
Governor Paul Dever 1949-1953, previously served as the Commonwealth’s youngest AG, when he was elected at 31.
<
p>
But you’re right, it hasn’t been a fantastic springboard as of late.
…he was not elected Governor from the AG seat. Admittedly, I stopped my research around 1890–not that it needs researching–but did Sullivan become Governor from the AG seat? (And maybe tomorrow I will research this–someone names James Sullivan elected Gov of MA in 1807? He obvoiusly was from the English side of the Sullivan line.)
Best I could tell Sullivan went straight to the Governorship from AG, but I was just messing around on Wikipedia, not really researching. And besides, I was just needling you because it was absurdly warm in Washington and I had nothing better to do. I understand and agree with your point.
probably dealing with that interdepartmental budget and likewise with his other experience heading the legal departments of 2 major corporations which undoubtedly involved setting priorities and allocating resources and by having articulated his vision about where he would focus a Patrick Administration – I’m sure he has the experience necessary to do the job
<
p>
Tom Reilly’s resume is pretty one dimensional – no business experience – all government service
<
p>
Chris Gabrieli seems to want to add government service to his resume – plenty of business experience
<
p>
I think Patrick has the more well rounded resume
I’d say there is a qualitative difference in the kind of wealth that Patrick and Gabrieli possess. If Patrick were to lose, he probably wouldn’t be able to make much more money. Obviously with his resume he is more than employable, but if he really didn’t leave Coke on great terms (I believe this has been reported on this blog) then I don’t imagine many other corporations will be knocking down his door.
<
p>
Gabrieli on the other hand seems to be able to make money hand over fist. In part it is his investment acumen and the nature of the business he is in.
<
p>
This same logic applies to both if they win. If Gabs wins I assume he puts everything in some form of blind trusts. While his potential for returns wouldn’t be what it was previously, he has a big egg to watch grow. If Patrick spends gobs of his comparatively small fortune on the race, and he wins, he likely wouldn’t have much in reserve. It is not as if he’d be destitute, but his salary and his wife’s might not support the style of living they’ve grown accustomed to. No knock against him, just basic dollars and cents.
<
p>
But now having hard facts and figures, that’s just my two cents.
… had differences, apparently.
Thank you
I think all the hype, drama and energy surrounding Gabrielli’s jump-started campaign is due to the real X Factor in this race, Deval Patrick.
<
p>
As has been mentioned before, Patrick’s campaign is scaring the insiders. Why it’s doing that is a longer discussion, but I’ll mention it as it related to Gabrielli. First of all, I don’t think it’s because of Patrick’s race. I believe a black or minority version of Tom Reilly would be very well received by the party insiders. Rather, I think it’s because the insiders don’t understand Patrick; and they don’t understand how he’ll govern.
<
p>
I can sympathize. Appears to me, the guy spends more time talking about hope, cynicism and other ephemerals than he does about Massachusetts. I’m not saying he doesn’t talk policy; I’m saying that by making intangibles like leadership and “hope” such a key part of his message, it gives people trying to imagine a Governor Patrick’s weekly schedule a very hazy picture. And that scares a lot of insiders and power brokers, probably in part because they feel they might be cut out of the loop; and probably in part because they feel that being a good Governor is about 10% hope, and 100% getting down to brass tacks.
<
p>
Enter Gabrielli: Venture capitalist. Patron of public schools. Loyal Democrat; did a great job as LG candidate in ’02 but couldn’t carry the top of the ticket. In terms of his message and who he is, there is no simpler candidate conceivable than Gabrielli. No mysteries, no glaring question marks. And for a lot of people–especially insiders–that’s a good thing.
I’d say that is some pretty clear-headed analysis on a topic usually clouded by passions and prejudices. For your refreshingly dispassionate analysis, you get a 6.
You think the analysis of Chris Gabrieli as “simple” and Deval ST. Patrick as different/unique and therefore a threat to and confounding to party insiders is clear headed analysis?
<
p>
Let me ask you or anyone:
<
p> What has Deval Patrick ever done for the people of Massachusetts? What cause has he ever helped to fund with his own personal money? When has he ever worked on an issue during his own personal time to make the lives of Massachusetts residents better?
<
p>
Oh wait, I forgot….
Question: What do you call a person with an Amerquest motrgage?
Answer: HOMELESS!!!!!! Thanks Deval… I think he’s done quite enough.
One more time: Deval Patrick was hired by Ameriquest during the period when it was NEGOTIATING SETTLEMENTS with individual states (including Massachusetts) for unfair and deceptive lending practices that occurred BEFORE Patrick was on the board. The SETTLEMENT that Massachusetts reached with AmeriQuest and that Tom Reilly constantly pats himself on the back for is one that Patrick helped negotiate.
<
p>
Now play fair.
Tell that to the homeless people, the people who were mercilessly taken advantage of by the preditory lender known as Amerquest. Deval ST Patrick took a job and approximately $350,000 last year from that disgusting company who preyed upon mostly underpriveledged people and communities. How he could even associate himself with that preditory lender is beyond me and shows a major lack of judgement on his part or maybe just Deval’s massive greed or both. I know you worshippers to the altar of ST. Patrick don’t want this discussed any further but sorry it will be. I was told by many Deval supporters last week that I was thinned skinned because I criticized the exclusionary tacctics of the Deval campaign at the convention despite their inclusionary rhetoric. Who is being thin skinned now????? It’s a fact that YOUR GUY, ST Patrick of Milton, was associated with and profited by this disgraceful company and this fact cannot be changed. Don’t you tell me to play fair. Tell YOUR CANDIDATE, ST. Patrick of Milton to work for companies that LEND FAIR.
“The SETTLEMENT that Massachusetts reached with AmeriQuest and that Tom Reilly constantly pats himself on the back for is one that Patrick helped negotiate.”
<
p>
So – as Ameriquest’s lawyer, does that mean it was his job to screw us and pay us as little as possible? Or did he fail to use due diligence, and allow the states to collect more than was necessary under the settlement?
Can you not simply treat Deval Patrick’s name with a little respect? Why must you all him “St. Patrick”? Playground bullies distort and mock people’s names because such distortion dehumanizes the one they bully. Grow up.
I did not originate this nickname of Deval but I like it and understand it. Frankly, I am sick and tired of his and his supporters holier than thou attitudes and his empty rhetoric. ST. Patrick says one thing but does another hence he has EARNED his little nickname in my opinion.
<
p>
St. Patrick’s greatest hits:
Deval is from an underpriveledged backround, he has worked for the little guy but he took a cool $350K from one of the most preditory lenders while doing their bidding.
<
p>
Deval claims to be inclusionary but utilized many exclusionary tactics some were even employed by paid staffers to try to barr at least Chris and maybe even Tom from the ballot.
<
p>
Deval says he will run a positive, uplifting campaign but just yesterday went negative on Gabrieli.
<
p>
Deval says he is the campaign of the outsiders but his campaign has been endorsed by many elected officials. Are they outsiders? Also Deval has worked on the public payroll most of his life that makes him an insider….sorry.
<
p>
These are just a few of the examples of ST. Patrick’s hypocritical and empty rhetoric that have earned him the title of ST Patrick…Get it.
<
p>
LEND FAIR
that you are an angry and resentful individual, much like the playground bully who is armed with righteous indignation and self-serving justification. Rave on.
I saw the shots that you took at South Shore Guy a few days ago. When you could not defend the statements that he made against your beloved Deval, you tried to turn it around on South Shore Guy by saying that he was name calling and derogatory. In fact, South Shore Guy responded to your statements by quoting YOUR OWN derogatory name calling of him and YOUR nasty remarks. Not surprisingly, you try to do the same thing here. You call me angry and resentful. You call me a playground bully. I said NOTHING about you. I called YOU no names. I stated FACTS about your candidate and his campaign that you do not want to hear. Moreover, you certainly do not want others to hear the dirty little secrets of the Patrick campaign. Instead of refuting any of my statements or even defending your candidate, you call me names. But don’t worry, Lightiris I don’t care what you say about me. The bottom line is: the truth hurts. For the record, I am not angry or resentful nor am I a bully. But I certainly can dish it out as well as I can take it and I will continue to do so. Remember, politics ain’t beanbag.
In fact, this exchange does not merit much more time except that I will say you are free to say whatever you like about any candidate, but not everyone has to a) accept what you say unquestioningly or b) appreciate the tone in which you say it.
<
p>
Nothing you have said appears truthful or factual to me, candidly, so I’m not hurt by anything you’ve written. Indeed, there’s not even much in the way of Colbertian “truthiness,” to my estimation, meriting the time and effort of a sincere or thoughtful response. I do find your name-calling childish, however, and decided I would comment–as I’m free to do on a public forum.
<
p>
Lightiris, please tell me where I am wrong. Which of my statements are not truthful or factual? Adding to the list of names that you previously called me you now say that I am childish. I take no offense. It is a common but ineffective tactic to respond to unpleasant facts by name calling. Furthermore, I never said that anyone had “to accept what I say unquestioningly or appreciate the tone in which I said it” Frankly, I don’t give a damn whether you like what I said or the way that I said it. But I certainly applaude your right to comment and invite you to comment further if you’re so inclined.
<
p>
LEND FAIRLY
I don’t think tacking saint in front of Patrick actually matters. there are only two people doing that, greencape and Jon Keller. It’s no more a legitimate nickname than me tagging Gabrieli “Thirstin Howl”.
<
p>
and, I normally don’t out poor spelling b/c we’re all prone to sloppy typing in the heat of the moment, but predatory is spelled with an a, not an i.
I don’t think your comment has anything to do with mine, other than you repeat some of what I said to begin it.
<
p>
I don’t think Gabrieli is a simple individual, I just happen to agree that he’s presenting an easily understood message: I am a Democrat with a proven record on a specific set of issues. Well it seems relatively clear to me what his pitch is. However, I am less clear about what “the politics of hope” really means and how a governor incorporates that into the work of governing.
<
p>
When I first saw Deval on a Saturday morning in Pittsfield, I was impressed. But after the event, I couldn’t help but think that his was a speech I’d much rather here from a candidate for the U.S. House or Senate. Somewhere there is a great JFK quote about not wanting to be Governor because he didn’t care enough about potholes. There is more than a little truth in that. A message like the politics of hope seems to fit better with a legislative campaign. I have begun to understand how an inspirational elected official could create momentum for concrete projects. But I am still unsure that it deserves a central place in the message of a gubernatorial campaign when the job is so much about the actual managing and directing of state government.
<
p>
Because of all that, I think he is an unknown quantity to state political leaders. Those members of the establishment who have less at stake when it comes to day to day governing of the state are those most visibily excited about his campaign as is evidenced by his endorsements of (half nearly half?) of MA’s House delegation.
<
p>
Insiders more than others value predictability. It allows them to anticipate actions and reactions and where they fit. This does not mean that Tom Reilly is a bad candidate for governor. One could argue he might be a better governor if those experienced in state government see where he would lead the state and see something they like. It is very much open to interpretation if being a known quantity is a good or bad thing.
<
p>
As to the rest of your comment, I have no response. I will let the Patrick campaign’s vocal and prolific defenders argue those points with you.
<
p>
I think your comment demonstrates the problem of blogs in that poorly reasoned comments, particularly those so vociferously expressed, do little to advance the debate or discussion. At least that is my opinion as someone still deciding who I’ll cast my vote for on Sept 19th.
. . . and I really like him, and he’d make a terrific Governor compared to what we’ve lived through the past 16 years. But I’m supporting Deval Patrick because I think he offers something fresh, original, and uplifting. I’m not going to tear down Chris Gabrieli to make my case for Deval Patrick, but it seems to me that the Gabrieli supporters on this blog are somewhat nasty – especially the references to “St. Patrick”, and I haven’t seen anything like that from the Patrick side. I’ll assume that this is coming from a couple of kooks, maybe even Republicans trying something else from their bag of dirty tricks, but this kind of pettiness doesn’t bode well for Democrats for the run from the primary to the final election in November. I don’t think we are respecting our candidates by engaging in this kind of verbal jousting.
Since you have been on this website since February it would seem to me that you should KNOW that the nasty remarks and actions, the kooks, as you refer to people and divisiveness started with the Deval supporters. Once again, Deval supporters can dish it out but they certainly can’t take it.
What nerve to say you know what ocurred here in February
<
p>
Have you read every archive, diary, and comment written since then to come to that conclusion???
Even though I did not post a blog in February I was reading the love-in that was occuring amongst mostly Deval supporters on a daily basis and the bashing of Chris Gabrieli when he had the “nerve” as some refered to it to dare to get into the governor’s race. I was entertained and was quite willing to leave it at that. But the last straw for me was attending the convention and witnessing first hand the abuse received by Gab supporters. Deval delegates and paid staffers were screaming at and taunting people who dared to vote for Gabrieli and some even called people the next day on the phone to harrass them further. It was at that point that I decided that I had enough. I got an account and started speaking. Too bad, if you do not like it. And the whining by St. Patrick followers since Gab set his cap a week ago is really bordering on silly. The Patrick followers seem to forget that Americans are free to support whomever they want for governor even if it is not Deval. So if Deval supporters can dish it out they better learn to take it. This is no longer a haven soley for Patrick supporters.
<
p>
Loan fair
for someone who wishes to have his argument heard. take it from someone with plenty of bluster, sometimes it’s better to play it cool for a bit.
<
p>
I’ll read BMG over a lot of the other blogs specifically b/c of the relatively sane conversations over here (heated though they often get.) And clearly you enjoy hanging around BMG, too. So show a little respect.
Indeed it is, and as someone who isn’t fully convinced by Deval Patrick, you’d do well to bluster a little less and communicate a little more. It seems to me that when you shout, others often shout back. But when people make reasoned arguments against your position, as I and others have in this thread, you either don’t reply or just go on yelling. Respect may be a two way street, but you need to be on the right road to begin with.
I doubt you’ll read this thread again, but it is incredibly immature to rate my comment as a 3 simply because you have nothing to say in response.
Greencape, maybe the lesson you should take away from the alleged rudeness of some Patrick supporters is that rudeness doesn’t get votes. And if you want to do well by your candidate, maybe you shouldn’t follow suit if you feel that someone’s been rude to you. I can’t say that folks are likely to feel warm and fuzzy towards Gabrieli after reading your posts.
<
p>
Honey or vinegar. Choose.
I know, like, and respect not only Chris Gabrieli but many of his supporters, and the couple of people on this website who call Deval Patrick “St. Patrick” do not represent the Gabrieli campaign. You can certainly find plenty to criticize without resorting to name-calling. And if Gabrieli wins the Primary, you are going to need Patrick supporters come November.
I want to be generally positive, but competitive, and also fun; in that spirit, I don’t see how “Saint Patrick” can be objected to. I have no problem with all the folks who call Chris Gabrieli “the Gabber” or Gabs. Really, if you’re offended by a joky nickname that plays on a candidate’s image, you’re much too sensitive, or you’re pretending to be sensitive for tactical reasons. I’m in Dublin at the moment and enjoying the conversation – call it substantive with a tabloid spirit. It’s a relief to get a break from a place where there’s always some Puritan schoolmarm scolding you for expressing yourself too freely.
the point is that others do. Much like whether or not something is funny, the humor is determined by the listener, not the teller. If I or others are weary of the underlying nastiness of calling Deval Patrick “St Patrick,” it seems to me you’re not in a position to judge whether or not they have the right or are justified in taking issue.
<
p>
Just as you may believe you need some relief from the “Puritan schoolmarm scolding” you feel you’re enduring, some of us need a break from the juvenile namecalling.
<
p>
The discourse on this blog really needs some work.
…and a piss poor speller, I’m always writing Gabreili and whatever and find nothing wrong with Gabber. If fact, in a private conversation with Chris, he joked about his tendency to be long winded (which I think he’s greatly improved on).
<
p>
But there is nothing funny about St. Patrick. It’s meant to be mean and portray Deval and his supporters as hypocritical.
<
p>
As humans, and especially as political candidates, we are always acting in hypocritical ways. If you’re fighting the enemy (that would be Republicans), fine–go for the juggler and fire away–take no prisoners.
<
p>
But in a disagreement with kinder-souls, like fellow Democrats, we can’t cross-the-line and “St Patrick” crosses the line. I donât disagree with the essence of the criticism that leads you to conjure up this St. Patrick image, but suggest you tone down your metaphors to a more civil-level.
<
p>
Why possibly endanger alienating one Patrick supporter with your vitriol, because, if/when Chris wins, we’ll need everyone to help in November. Conversely, if Patrick wins the primary, you have whipped yourself up into such a fever that you may not work for his election in November.
<
p>
Nope, it’s not healthy. As for the meager defense that “the Patrick people started it”. My God! Do you really have the maturity-level of a first-grader? And the defense of “can’t you take a joke” gives you the maturity level of a middle-school bully.
<
p>
Lastly, WWCD? What would Chris Do? Whether you like it or not, your comments reflex on Chris and his campaign, and I’m pretty sure that he’d condemn this whole St. Patrick crap.
I did not originate the name but I do use it and will continue to use it when the shoe fits. Patrick and the Patrick campaign have been hypocritical. As I have said before, I am sick and tired of all of their proclamations of inclusion and diversity. Yet, the Patrick campaign had credentials pulled from elected democratic officials. Patrick stated that he welcomed Chris to the race and thought more voices added to the campaign and the debate and yet he, his paid staffers and his supporters used intimidation and threats to try to pressure people to not vote for Chris and barr him from the ballot. Patrick states that he has a different, uplifting message and yet his supporters were supplied with silence signs which they held up during Chris’ speech at the convention. Additionally, just this week, Patrick went negative against Chris because of the cap. Patrick is from an underpriveledged backround and yet he chose to work for Ameriquest, a preditory lender who takes advantage of struggling homeowners which often lead to the homeowners losing their homes. These criticisms of Patrick and his campaign are facts that are easily verified by newpaper articles, testimonials and public records. It is the holier than thou attitude of some Patrick supporters and their do as I say not as I do attitude that has conjured up the nickname St. Patrick.
With respect to your accertion that: “as humans, and especially as political candidates, we are always acting in hypocritical ways.” I could not disagree more. I try never to be hypocritical. I make a lot of mistakes. I am not perfect and I recoginze that no one is. But I also try never to be hypocritical and I do not care for candidates whether they be Democrats or Republicans who regularly act hypocritically. I also take exception to your statement that “if you’re fighting the enemy (that would be Republicans), fine–go for the juggler and fire away–take no prisoners”. I certainly think Republican deficiencies should be pointed out but so should Democratic deficiencies. Finally, Frankskeffington sorry if the St. Patrick nickname offends you but until the Deval campaign stops being hypocritical it will continue to be used.
Is this your first blogging experience regarding discussing politics?
<
p>
I would like to point out that Blue Mass Group is considered to be probably the premier blog discussing politics in MA.
<
p>
Emphasis on discussing
<
p>
This is not a Yahoo board
<
p>
If you would be so kind as to mention a few of the other blogs or discussion boards that you visit I would appreciate it. I cannot think of one reputable blog that doesn’t try to keep the discourse civil.
<
p>
I’ve been engaging in dialogues such as what is normally on display here around the blogospere since Nov of 2000(get the implication of that date?) and I have to say I have never seen one supporter of a particular candidate tell another supporter of the same candidate basically- shut up I’m going to continue doing what I’m doing.
<
p>
He should be your ally on this discussion board. This is where an on-line community can be formed.
<
p>
You’ve actually managed to amaze me
I’m not a big fan of any of the candidates, to be honest; Deval probably excites me most, but I do have big issues, particularly with his rcorporate role with companies like Ameriquest and Texaco. I understand that patrick has given his own accounts of that work, but I still think that there are legitimate questions to be asked.
<
p>
That said, greencape, your tone is probably making people LESS likely to consider those issues. It comes off as breatlessly angry and makes people take you less seriously. For instance, I understand that you think that Deval is hypocritical, and that’s why you call him St. Patrick. But if your goal is to try to persuade others that he’s hypocritical, don’t you want to communicate that message in a way that people will hear?
<
p>
Let’s take an analogue. You can have two people who both oppose a war (to avoid getting caught up in any debates over current wars, we’ll discuss the fictional war on Goatsylvania). One approaches her friends and tells them firmly, “Goatsylvanians are dying because you’re too apathetic to stop this war!” The other appraoches her friends and says, “I’m really upset by the war–have you seen how many Goatsylvanians died last week?” The first may feel some relief in telling people off, but latter is a lot more likely to engage people.
<
p>
Do ya see where I’m going with this?
but what you’re seeing is a response by Greenscape to some serious provocation. The guy has been performing yeoman’s duty in an effort to provide the antidote to what is often a hailstorm of verbal bricks aimed at the Gabrieli candidacy. What is becoming routine and kind of funny are the sermons that are visited upon Gabrieli supporters. With all due respect, fieldscornerguy – have you read all the posts or do you skip over the comments by Deval supporters? It was the actions of Deval’s supporters that inspired his nickname.
<
p>
The bottom line is that every camp is going to need the other camps after the primary. I know what it is to work for a candidate that has lost the primary..and to have an insufferable campaign staff show up on our doorstep to rub it in. And yes, our collective hands went right into our pockets shortly thereafter. It’s not smart politics…and yet, we have that going on right now, before a single vote had been counted. this thing is far from a lock for any candidate.
Thanks for your reply, CentristDem. I think that if greencape is doing yeoman’s work for Gabrieli, then it’s definitely a shame if he does so in a way that’s going to make people turn off, even in response to provocation.
<
p>
With all due respect, fieldscornerguy – have you read all the posts or do you skip over the comments by Deval supporters?
<
p>
No disrespect taken! And the answer is that I don’t read all the posts, and neither do I skip over comments by Deval supporters. I’ve seen obnoxious comments from supporters of all three Dem. candidates. And I don’t have time to read everything on here.
<
p>
Moreover, though, I’ve felt like since the time of the convention, the overall discussion has gone downhill. There’s been less discussion of issues, and far more back-and-forth about which candidate is better and which candidate’s supporters and bullies and which are Kool-Aid drinkers. At the risk of counding arrogant, I find that boring. And I don’t think that it does anything for getting the GOP out of the corner office, nor for making progress on progressive issues.
I agree with the sentiment. We need to address records and issues, not fling mud. We all get caught up in from time to time because we’re passionate supporters of our candidates.
<
p>
I know I need to step back and take a breath occassionally before posting something.
<
p>
We’re all Democrats here. Remember that the GOP does read this blog and all the others as well.
of why I have no interest in joining either the Democratic party or any of the campaigns.
<
p>
I’m a liberal who has, for the past several years, remained unenrolled (because the Democrats can’t get their act together to win statewide offfice or stand together nationally as an effective opposition). I came to this blog to find information and perhaps ways to get involved in changing the direction of our state. I see three worthy candidates, all who have something to offer the state. Perhaps one of them, or their supporters, could persuade me to “rejoin the fold” and maybe even get involved.
<
p>
However, the discussion here is simply garbage. Is that what the democratic party has descended into? Is this simply a preview of the primary? Guess I’ll stay on the sidelines, then (and I’m probably not alone).
Opus (great name), when you get involved in the party, you are the party. When you stay on the sidelines, someone else makes the decisions for you.
<
p>
I share your dismay at the tone of this discussion. It’s been pretty juvenile. We are still struggling with a ratings system that’s supposed to allow the proprietors to down-rate bad comments into oblivion.
<
p>
But there’s another point: This is a forum. And that means that it only takes one or two trolls to drag down the whole discussion. YOU DON’T HAVE TO TAKE THE BAIT, EVERYONE. Ignore the trolls.
<
p>
And in any event, thanks for the substantive MCAS post yesterday. If you hate the tone in this thread (as do I), we need your help to lead by example, as you’ve done.
We are still struggling with a ratings system that’s supposed to allow the proprietors to down-rate bad comments into oblivion.
<
p>
How is the ratings system supposed to work, Charley? It now seems to allow posts to stay up even if they have multiple 3’s. For the most part, they seem to be doing little more than feuling the flame wars as people say, “Sure, give me a 3!”
At present, though, any comment with 5 or more ratings that average below a 4 should be hidden. If that’s not the case, please let us know. Thanks.
I was thinking of doing a post on why BlueMassGroup is developing as a community and how ite potential to be a leader (i hate pioneer – but in 25 years there is no reason why you guys can’t be looked upon as pioneers) in what a community blog should be. Obviously, there is always tinkering, but Idon’t mind the ratings system. In a communtity the messenger is just as important as the messsage.
<
p>
I hope, like in a communtiy, sub-communities, if you will, develope. Sort of like cliques. Still part of the larger community.
<
p>
This blog, like Ernie is sometimes, is a work in progress. If you want to see what its full potential is it should not be tightly controled.
Ernie, just a heads-up: if you post your e-mail address in your messages that way, it’s likely to get you a LOT of spam. Webcrawling programs seek out addresses. I respect that you’re putting it out there, but you might want to write it in a way that some bots won’t recognize, like ernieboch3 [at] hotmail [dot] com.
If that’s the case, I don’t see any posts on here that should be hidden but aren’t. Thanks.
“Devalisms”
<
p>
Inclusive? Except at the convention when you can possibly exclude your competition at the ballot through hardball politics and insider connections (e.g. most of MA Congressional delegation, Evelyn Murphy, Maura Hennigan, Bill Galvin, Marian Walsh, etc. etc.)
<
p>
I’m the outsider and everyone else is the insider. Make sure my supporters scream that every chance they get – especially about Gabrieli and Sal Di Masi. Except that Gabrieli has more private sector experience than Deval and Tom combined. And Deval has a ton of insiders endorsing him, supporting him with $, and working for him.
<
p>
New kind of politics? Who was the first to air a negative ad – albeit over email? Yep, Deval.
<
p>
His Supporters Like Lightiris: Call people names like dishonest, condescending and snide. When they reply with facts and occasional sarcasm? Call them angry.
<
p>
Greencape – Keep it up. Your passion and knowledge are to be admired. The truth hurts sometimes and hypocrisy needs to be called out on occasion (e.g. lightiris). That piece yesterday was correct. Gabrieli is the best bet to win in November if he can win the primary and I think he will.
For the record.
<
p>
Now I’ve seen it all. I think I’ll consider this a wrap.
<
p>
I’m hopeful this site figures out what it wants to be (feels like a Massachusetts DU, looks like it wants to be a Next Hurrah) because I think there’s value in a robust local blog.
there are a few who just can’t resist throwing one last brick – and it starts all over again. I agree with you- it gets old. And while you may not agree with the approach that Greencape has taken and question his effectiveness, surely you can understand that Gabrieli supporters have been as welcome as ants at a picnic? Somehow only the Gabrieli supporter have to play nice in the sandbox while some of the rest get to throw sand.
<
p>
What I don’t agree is that the tone of the conversation went downhill after the convention. Actually – BMG erupted not long after Gabrieli had the temerity to enter the gubernatorial race. It’s been that way, fieldscornerguy. Perhaps you can ask them what it is that gets their shorts in a knot.
Perhaps it did start then, CentristDem. I didn’t notice, and I feel like there’s been a lot more flaming and a lot less discussion of the issues since early June. But whatever–I’m not too concerned about who started it or when. It sounds like we both agree that the quality of the discussion has gone down, and I hope that everyone–Gabrielli supporters, Reilly supporters, Patrick supporters, and folks who aren’t supporting any of them–will chill out, aand will remember that excoriating people on a blog doesn’t help their preferred candidate.
and rage is not a strategy. Thanks FCG.