Answer: One, a lawyer who was hired in 1988. Almost 15 years before new ownership.
Question: of the 29 people listed as major league personel and medical staff, how many are african americans.
answer: one, “an assistant eqiupment manager” who was also hired prior to arrival of new owners.
Question: how many of the 114 people listed as player developement,scouts, minor league trainers, instructors, coordinators, monor league managers, coaches, and staff are African American?
Answer: five.. 1 scout out of 57 and 4 minor league coaches and instructors out of 48. this includes Tommy Harper and Jim Rice. One is a discrimination icon that sued and the other is one of the teams greatest hitters. The other two are a trainor and minor league coach U.L. Washington. Remember him?
Question: any other african americans in the media guide?
answer: Yes, third base coach DeMarlo Hale, Coco crisp and some other guy.
So 232 employees not including major league players and coaches we have 7 african americans.
Do i have to paint a picture?
For Crissake, you’d think this was NASCAR.
Oh wait! It is.
Ernie must keep his anonymity on this. The last guy who pointed out that these guys, especially Lucchino, were frauds died witin days.
RIP Will McDonough
P.S. if you like, please recommend. Piss the red sox off and keep this around.
have the intent to win games, not fulfill racial quotas. I would like to see how many blacks applied for positions. How well qualified were they? Who did beat them out for these jobs? How qualified are they?
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This a very one-sided post. Just as easy as it is to give the Red Sox crap over not hiring enough blacks, you could give the black community crap for not pumping out enough qualified and interested applicants.
I simply don’t agree with the conclusion you’ve drawn from them.
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In the NBA, over 80% of the players are black, do I think that NBA teams are discriminating against white players? Naw, I think that they just want to win and the black athlete is beating out the white one 8 out of 10 times.
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Numerical discrepancies do not in of themselves represent racist intent. In order to determine racism you need more than just white to black ratios.
i never thought of it that way.
Hmmmm.
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I take it all back
Seems to me the whole arguement is flawed if one proceeds from the defunct assumption that the only racial-cultural minority in this country is Black. If you really want to look at teams reflecting the populace, why aren’t you including Asians, Latinos & others into the equation? This whole Black/White dichotomy does have historical basis of course, but it is antiquated and no longer reflects the whole of the AMerican pallette.
Does Baseball have a problem hiring Latinos? No way.
have a sense a history. there are no african americans working for the sox. They have a hostorical reputation of being discriminatory towards black. new ownseship said they were gboing to do something about that. instead they went in reverse.
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JoeT, You are young and not well read my young republican friend.so naive. is Bill O’Reilly your idol.
Here it is.
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‘Bio:
20 Year old Republican going to UMASS Dartmouth. Religious but humble, the way it was supposed to be.”
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i like the ‘religious but humble’ part.
That means he does not brag about being white.
Ernie Boch III– lacking facts to support my claims of racism, I usually resort to distracting people and name calling.
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^^ copy/paste ^^
“lacking facts to support my claims of racism, I usually resort to distracting people and name calling.”
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JoeTS I did give facts. That’s what makes you a moroon.
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This has nothing to do with player personnel. Your NBA analogy is far from the point. Your lack of historical and institutional memory also shows.
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The Red Sox show 2 people out of close to 100 who’s jobs are significant enough to post their picture in the media guide.
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Only 2 are African American. And the only Latins are are in latin Scouting etc.
One african American scout out of 50+.
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We call those facts, wise guy. And you can find them in my post. In addition I tell you where I got these facts.
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Now Joe, give me some facts to back up your argument. And please make the argument on point. Then I will refrain from calling you a schmuck.
Schmuck
out of 70+ were working there before new ownership.
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The pictures don’t lie Joe.
because they don’t mean anything. They don’t.
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If the number of blacks was like this and say…100 black people applied for positions compared to like 20 white people, I would agree wholeheartedly, but the fact is, you are taking numbers and putting them into an improper context for the sake of making the Red Sox look like a racist institution.
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And the latinos are in scouting for spanish-speaking players? What a ridiculous concept! How dare they! If I were the Red Sox, I would only have people who speak Korean scouting for spanish-speaking players.
1. The 2005 estimate for blacks in Massachusetts as a percentage: 6.9%.
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7 out of 232 is about half that. The Red Sox have plenty of room for improvement.
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2. The percentage of blacks in MLB is 9%, a 25 year low. Based on that number, you’d expect to see at least 9% of Red Sox personnel whose jobs are baseball-skill-centric (coaches, instructors, scouts) to be black.
I think EB3 raises a really valid point. The Red Sox hiring of black employees is clearly lacking. It’s below the population rate for the state, and below the population rate for MLB former players. Maybe it’s because the black former players just don’t want to coach, instruct, or scout — or the white former players have demonstrated they’re better at evaluating talent. Somehow I doubt that’s the case.
like i’ve always said, ‘stomv is one of the brightest commentators on BMG.
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It’s like he is always saying what I am thinking.
Most of the 100+ jobs are not player skills related.
Comapre these off field jobs with private and public sector figures.
Not good.
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Were it so, EB3, were it so.
Roger.
how bout rating the comment you liked so much… 😀
none of these teems recruit from only within their “home” state. so i think it makes more sense to use national statistics. not sure how that might affect your calculations.
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has there ever been a native american player or employee in any of the NBA, NFL or major league baseball? just wondrin.
all american
PP was right – racism is dead – we can all make fun of it now.
/sarcasm off/
is Navajo and one of Boston’s top farm prospects. He will probably make it to the majors in a couple of years.
but for business people, I think it is reasonable to look at the state’s numbers.
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Baseball talent folks are nationwide — players, coaches, instructors, etc. But applications for people who work for the Sox because of their business acumen might not be as widely based. No matter: the MA number is less than tUSA number, so if the Sox aren’t even making the MA number they’re clearly below US standards.
First, the Chiefs:
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Chief Bender, Chief Chouneau, Chief Johnson, Chief Yellowhorse, Chief Meyers, Chief Youngblood, Chief Hoggsett.
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Note that the “Chiefs” didn’t call themselves Chief most of the time. Chief Bender was called “Charlie” by other Native American MLB players.
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Others include:
Zack Wheat
Jim Thorpe
Jack Aker
Dwight Lowry
Cal McLish
Pepper Martin
Roy Johnson
Rudy York
Ben Tincup
Jesse Petty
Bobby Madritsch (active)
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IIRC, Johnny Bench and Willie Stargel both have Native American bloodlines.
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I’m sure there’s many more who were only in MLB for a cup of coffee. Most of the Native Americans had careers in the 1900-1929 range, and then a small burst during WWII because the draft lefts lots of openings.
That’s off the top of your head??
when I was a kid. It was the only “history” I cared about. Between 8 and 12 years old, I could have told you the batting average, hits/walk ratio, handed, and other stats from about 500 players playing that year.
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Plus, I had a baseball trivia game and it had a “Chiefs” question on it, so I memorized them. I had another game that let you use pseudo-probability to assemble teams from across the century and play them head to head with dice rolling. I organized a Rotisserie League (now called Fantasy Baseball) with my friends, and did all the stats without the Internet (it was early 90s).
I no longer follow baseball players closely, but I do love the game itself. I’ve been to 34 MLB stadiums past and present, many in the 90s (and now no longer in existence).
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Ya, I’m a bit of a baseball nut.
Why would you expect the rate of baseball-skill-centric employees to be on par with the % of players of a certain skin color? What does that have to do with anything? Since David Ortiz is a a black Dominican, is he incapable of being coached by anyone other than black Dominicans?
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This is ridiculous for a multitude of reasons. First and foremost is black culture. Baseball is not the sport of black culture…do you think there’s a reason that over 80% of the NBA is black? Fact of the matter is, black people, on a whole, are not as interested playing baseball as they are football or basketball. People who lack interest in playing a sport probably aren’t interesting in managing it either, because a lot of good management skill in the sports world comes from experience of playing. In order for the Red Sox to fulfill arbitrary racial quotas, they’d have to have a field of black candidates who were qualified enough for positions. These candidates would be compared to white candidates (because just hiring them because they’re black is racist) and would have to be better qualified.
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Bottom line: 6.9% of our state population is black. Put that together with the fact that baseball is not the sport of choice among blacks, where would you draw an expectation that there would be a lot of black administrators in the Red Sox?
provided by EB3, if you haven’t already. It’s short but it has some interesting points including this:
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I don’t expect the Red Sox to hire a certain number of any particular race, but ownership stated in 2002 when they took over the team that they wanted to hire more minorities. According to EB3’s numbers that hasn’t happened.
I’m curious as to why such a smart group of successful business people would fail to achieve one of their stated goals.
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MLB may be less popular among African Americans today than it t was 25 years ago, and for that very reason, I would have expected the Sox to have worked harder to get results.
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There could be any number of reasons why the Sox haven’t hired more minorities. Given their history, and the public statements of the new owners, it just seems odd. Maybe 5 years isn’t a long enough time frame, but those numbers look pathetic.
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Because that’s where the talent pool lies. There are very very few managers, coaches, or instructors who weren’t MLB players. That’s why, at first glance, it’s reasonable to expect the racial breakdown of current coaches, managers, and instructors to line up with the racial breakdown of MLB alumni. It also slices through your “cultural” arguments, since we’re talking about blacks who did have quite an affinity for baseball — enough of an affinity to earn a living shagging flies and taking 500 ABs a year.
every black player who retires from play is supposed to go on to become a coach or scout or something?
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And no, my cultural arguments stands. You didn’t even touch upon it.
but if the percentage of black managers/coaches/instructors now doesn’t approximately match the percentage of black players 20 years ago, one ought to wonder why.
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Maybe it’s because blacks just don’t want to manage/coach/instruct. After all, maybe they just don’t like baseball. Maybe they’ve got higher paying prospects elsewhere. Maybe they’re not as articulate or as smart. Or maybe there’s a reason you’d like to propose.
By looking at the “pipeline” from player to coach, I am implicitly responding to your “cultural” argument by eliminating it. After all, the blacks in MLB overcame cultural intertia to end up playing baseball in the MLB. Once we’re considering only the active and alumni of MLB, the cultural argument is irrelevant.
And find out what the % of black players on the Red Sox was 20 some-odd years ago to make that statement plausible, and even then, its an argument that is riddled with holes.
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And as you say, there’s a plethora of reasons they might not go into those post-player fields; but the fact is, some do. Not all, but some.
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My cultural argument was this: baseball is not the sport of choice among blacks. This is crystal clear in our society. Since the black culture does not favor baseball, why would there be an expectation that the number of administrators be on par or exceed the % of our population?
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Face it, the days of Tom Yawkey are over, but we shouldn’t just go hire the first black dude we find just to prove a point.
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The MLB body as a whole is sufficient. Both players and coachces/managers/instructors often move between teams during their career. It’s rare to find a person employed for more than 10 years in either of these occupations who hasn’t worked for more than one team.
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Therefore, the historical percentage of black players 20 years ago on the Red Sox is irrelevant. It’s the historical percentage of black players in MLB that’s relevant.
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Again, I’m referring to baseball skilled positions (manager, coach, instructor) — not business skilled positions (the plethora of VPs).
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Because I’m referring to baseball skilled positions, and because nearly 100% of baseball managers, coaches, and instructors are former MLB players, it allows the avoidance of the cultural argument altogether. To be a manager/coach/instructor now, you had to be playing MLB 10+ years ago. So, the body of MLB alumni represents (virtually) the entire list of people eligible for the job. If the racial makeup of the current coaches/managers/instructors doesn’t look like the racial makeup of MLBPA alumni, it’s reasonable to ask why.
I’m avoiding administrative positions because they have far more to do with an MBA than an OBP — and therefore, you’re bringing in lots of other socio-economic factors. If you constrain the consideration to skill occupations, you can avoid most (all?!) of those other factors.
because we’re just talking about the Red Sox. It would be good for us to contrast the amount of blacks we’ve had between now and then because we can see if there is a trend in our hiring practices.
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You’re correct in saying it’s reasonable to ask why, no question there. However, EB3 didn’t just ask why, he also gave an answer: racism. This is where I take issue. I think that without some evidence that a qualified black man or four were passed up in leui of a less qualified white man, calling it institutional racism holds no water.
I never mentioned racism.
just facts. You jumped on me for reporting facts.
Never the word racism mentioned.
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schmuck
“Do I have to paint a picture?”
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If not a direct accusation of racism, what the heck did you mean by that?
I don’t think these people are racist. Really
They are just fucking hypocrites. That is what i believe. They wioll say anything and do as they please. They are above everyone so they do not have to go ouyt of their way to add some african americans to their front office. Yet the chastised prior ownership and said they would do better. Only they have done worse. They only gave it lip service and that should be enough in their world. They are the red sox and screw everyone else.
That is my point.
for the last time, these numbers have nothing to do with baseball. They are accountants, trainors, pencil pushers,computer people.
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son, you have no idea how stupid and racist you sound. I am sure the red sox would not use the defense you are raising.
I’m just thinking with reason rather than emotion. Try it sometime, you’ll find yourself less apt to call something a blithering idiot because you’ll realize that you just vindicated someone who notes your habit to resort to name calling.
Mutually Exclusive. I chose to do both.
You do neither. Try one. Just one.
…like Maroney’s shoulder?
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Baseball is a dying game anyway.
thanks for the reminder.
They let Dillon walk.
It had to be around the same time. Dillon was let go a month ago, and the article today seemed to infer Maroney’s shoulder surgery already happened, so I’m sure they knew. His productivity was not all that great in the playoffs as well, so that had to clue them in a little also.
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He’ll be fine, I’m sure. Superbowl ’08, baby.
I see very few African American fans in the stands. I sit in the cheap seats, so I can’t attribute this entirely to high ticket prices.
because many minorities sit in first base box seats?
has become phenominally overrated. When I was a kid, it was my favorite place in the world to be. Now, it’s not even Fenway anymore, it’s like Disneyfied Fenway. It’s like that old maxim: the very act of observing something changes its behavior. As soon as people started talking about the Fenway experience, the experience changed.
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Now, you can’t get a seat unless you know someone. When was the last time you went to the ticket window? You get all your tickets on-line right? So, already you’re winnowing out lower income people (ticket price) without internet access.
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Everytime I go to the game now, it’s either through tickets I get from work, or tickets someone else got…from work. Everyone comes from work. All decked out in either work clothes or …shudder… pink hats. In by the third inning, out by the seventh.
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I’m with PP. Get me to a Pats game any day.
I became one of those “in by the third, out by the seventh” jerks, but it’s because the experience is so annoying I can’t take it for more than an hour and a half. It starts off with the announcer telling everyone how historic Fenway is and then instructing us to remove our hats for the national anthem, like it’s some kind of frigging law. Don’t even get me started on “Sweet Caroline.” The whole thing is so orchestrated and the bandwagoners seem so ecstatic to go along with it all. When I was a kid the tone in the stands was set by older guys, solo hecklers who may have got a little drunk but had some wit. Now it’s set by 18-29-yr-old fratboy pinheads who get sloppy and can’t come up with anything better than “Yankees Suck.” Last year I was headed for a late-season Yankees game but sold the tickets for face value on Yawkey Way because I couldn’t stomach going inside. I’ll still follow the Sox but I’m done with Fenway.
but I’d bet 50 years ago, every man took his hat off during the national anthem at historic Fenway.
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It’s not the law, it’s just plain respectful.
nobody stood for the National Anthem in Fenway 70 years ago. It wasn’t played.
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In the 30s it was played from time to time, not every game. Canada played O Canada! in the 39-40 hockey season every game, since Canada was already at war. Then, Madison Square Garden started doing it, then baseball. The baseball owners, in a fit of patriotism or cynicism, started playing it every game in 1940, either to show love of country or to try to drum up baseball and patriotism so Americans wouldn’t question the patriotism of ballplayers who were clearly able-bodied but not off to war.
I always take my hat off for the anthem — it’s a fine custom. But it loses meaning for me when a disembodied voice orders me to do it.
Real fans come to watch the game. They try to be there for the first pitch and stay until the end. They don’t spend half of the game waiting in line for beer and bathrooms.
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Despite the fact that there are many people who do not seem that hooked into the game, I believe that more than half of the the people attending are indeed real fans.
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I also fail to see what is wrong with pink hats or Sweet Caroline. Complaining about that just makes you sound like a crotchety old man who has forgotten how to have fun.
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BTW, I would be happy to take any of your tickets off your hand for face value 😉
If not wanting to go to Fenway anymore gets me kicked out of your Book of Real Fans, that’s a price I’m willing to pay.
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I admit I’m crotchety about it. But the experience makes it hard to have fun in any way that doesn’t involve either trying to recreate Fever Pitch or getting obliterated. Though it varies game by game and section by section.
But then they sold out, man.
I must admit that your comment had a certain amount of “And get off my lawn, you delinquents!” quality to it.
I agree with your point, and I’d like to see the stats (if they are available). I’m not disputing your numbers on the Sox employees, but since you’re talking baseball, I’m sure that someone has the numbers somewhere.
The Sox (and MLB) have made a concerted effort to attract more Asian & Latino players, IMHO because baseball is wildly popular in places like Japan & The Dominican. It is curious that Sox owners have fallen short translating their stated goals into a reality (ie: hiring African Americans), regardless of MLB as a whole.
I’m a longtime baseball fan (not in stomv’s league!), and recognize that there have been more African American managers on the field in recent years, but the only front office guy that immediately comes to mind is White Sox GM Kenny Williams.
I am not sure if the photos are posted on red sox web site
Bob Watson, former GM of Astros and Yankees in the ’90s, now is in the MLB front office handing out suspensions for steroid violations and the like.
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Frank Robinson was also in that position for a while before becoming the manager of the Nationals.
he quir in disgust
…A lack of women among the management and players. Why should men dominate the sport? What’s wrong with a 50% mix of gender? The military desegregated, now it is time for the sports teams.
Don’t you have some cookies to bake?
than nice hot toll house cookies. I think the hometown team should hire Harold Reynolds as a spokesperson. I hear he is out of a job. Go Sox!!!
…(well, heck, I’m gay) but it was rumored in the 1980s that the Boston Celtics kept a very nice looking yount man–Danny Ainge–on staff, despite the rumor that he wasn’t exactly up to NBA stuff, because he was white.
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Danny was definitely nice looking. And definitely white.
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Thems were the rumors heard. Or read.
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I was considering going elsewhere about the Celtics, but I’ll abide.
That’s pretty funny, but that “rumor” is off base. Ainge was a very decent player for the Celtics in the ’80’s, if that qualifies as “staff”. He started on two championship teams 1984 & 1986 for the C’s, left town in ’89 or ’90 I think.
BTW, the C’s coach on the ’84 & 86 teams was former C player, K.C. Jones, who is black.
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Ainge played baseball for a year or two after college, but couldn’t hit, so he ended up in the NBA.
…I am gay (male) and I found Danny Ainge one of the most attractive men on the Celtic’s roster–other than Bill Russell, of course.
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I was just repeating what I’ve read.
I thought your original comment was saying that “rumor” had it , Ainge was on the Celtics “staff” because he was white. I’m not sure where you read that, but I think it’s safe to say that it’s inaccurate.
What you being gay has to do with Ainge being white, I’m not sure, unless you’re suggesting something about Ainge’s sexuality? You lost me.