Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

SICKO Suckso – With Poll

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How can I take Michael Moore seriously when he denies Canadians have an unreasonably long waiting period for medical procedures and appointments?  Much longer than any middle class Americans would accept or put up with.

Moore, I guess, doesn’t think there is a problem or doesn’t want us to know there is a problem with Canadian care.

His selective reporting causes him to lack any credibility with serious folks. Like BMG readers I presume.

Note: Yes there is a healthcare crisis but ignoring basic facts that don’t fit his hypothisis puts his film in the fiction category rather than a documentary. 

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  1. So Ernie, is it a lack of imagination or a emotional disability that has you attacking Michael Moore as “fat” in your poll? Or maybe you’re channeling Howie Carr, who lacks the skill to write about issues and writes about physical appearance in his column to compensate.

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    Either way, kinda sad there pal.

    • michael moore, a fat, obese walking heart attack, and many like him are filling our hospitals because they can’t take care of themselves. so who pays? me and you and tax payers and health insurers and everyone else.  This fat shit can tell evryone else how to live but he can’t burn more calories each day then he takes in. so diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, handicap license plates, early death are probably in his future. But not until his health insurer pays huge costs to keep the fat shit functioning before he dies. That means higher health insurance costs for me and you.

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      He can’t take care of himself. Eventually his health insurer will have to take care of him. But he tells the govt to give him free health care for his self-induced health problems.

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      Obesity is the biggist problem for the american health system. we get fat people taking care of themselves we save lots and lots of money and better care for the rest of us. and fat people start to feel good about themselves.

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      Striker, you calls this ‘lack of imagination” or “emotional disability”
      Not true a-hole. It just shows I have no tact.

      • I guess you go around and hurl insults at every fat person you come across on the street as part of your personal crusade against obesity?

        • They know they are fat, and depressed, and all sorts of things. I don’t need to tell them that.

            • Unlike the fat guy in the street, Michael Moore is shouting from rooftops that the health care system sucks. Well, from my view I think it would work a hell of a lot better if we cut down on obesity.
              Perhaps if Michael Moore did a documentary on him losing weight and how it improved his life and cut down on health issues and health costs, and encourage others to do same and government to encourage weight loss. There could actually be a change in the health care system.
              Now I would praise that documentary.

  3. … can’t possibly like their healthcare system more than we like ours… …oh wait!

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    Well… their system can’t possibly be more fiscally efficient than ours… … oh wait!

    • Maybe they are, maybe they arent?  But Michael Moore does a very lousy job in explaining why. Especially when he won’t report facts that also show the dowen side of the system.

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      Michael Moore produces propaganda for stupid people. I prefer better and more credible sources for informnation about the problems with American medical system.

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      Obviously Mr. Lynne, you just need Michael Moore to form your opinions. I rest my case.

      • I can cite a personal friend in Canada who wouldn’t give up their system for ours for the world.

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        First, the Canadian system is administered provincially, so things do vary.

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        Second, even very not life-threatening procedures don’t have to wait that long. My friend in BC had a hysterectomy, because she was experiencing mostly quality-of-life issues (terrible cycles, and occasional UTI’s). It took less than 6 weeks for her to get that procedure. In the US, the suckiest system in the western world by the way, I’d probably never even get approved for it or would have to fight my HMO, and then I’d be in for a waiting period at least that long.

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        On emergency, preventative, and standard care, they do just great. Another friend of mine had an entopic pregnancy in her fallopian tube, which burst it, she had internal bleeding, and there was NO delay when she went to the ER, they rushed her in and saved her life. My friend has a low-paying admin job, they  were too poor to get her American husband LIS status, and she has a kid from another marriage, and yet, she paid zero dollars for care she has needed. That’s what it means when health care is a right and not a privilege.

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        It’s total bullshit that the Canadian system is bad. There are certainly issues, there is definitely some rationing (it’s one cost-saving measure) but even on elective surgery like the first friend, if it’s needed, you will get it.

        • I haven’t given any. You are though. I am saying that there is research and data out there that addresses the time problems with the Canadian system.
          Anecdotel evidence which you and Michael Moore rely on is intellectual dishonest.

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          There are better and more proven ways to report on facts and evidence to support a claim. There are also non credible ways. Michael Moore and you champion the latter.

          • Do you have any friends with medical issues that aren’t related to “female problems”?
            Does Mr. Lynne?

            • Why?  Because reproductive healthcare isn’t “real” healthcare?

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              Not that it matters, but yeah we know people who see doctors for non-reproductive issues…  duh.

        • I can cite a personal friend in Canada who wouldn’t give up their system for ours for the world.

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          I lived in Canada for six years, and their system is atrocious.  The nearest hospital to me didn’t have outpatient care.  In Saskatchewan, the time lag from making an initial appointment until seeing an oncologist is 11 months.  I remember weekends in Montreal when the waiting time in an emergency room was 48 hours.  I did all my medical business back home.  My friend Sherri is an American who married a Canadian and lives there, comes home for medical appointments.  Heck, as prime minister, Brian Mulroney praised the system in a speech in Washington DC, before flying down to Florida to get medical help.  And it’s easy to bring up statistics, but that’s cold comfort knowing someone in Winnipeg is getting prompt care to balance out the averages while you’re waiting a third day in an emergency room for attention.

      • … snarky comment you conclude that I use MM for informing myself without any other sources.  Absolutely ridiculous.  Get a clue.

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        The question is… what is MM’s point? and is he right?

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        His point is that our system is broken and other national systems of other western democracies seem to work much better than ours.  He makes this case through anectdotes and humor, but if you do any research on the subjec, he is objectively right.

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        Should someone go fine other sources of information if they really want to be well informed on the subject?… absolutely.

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        Will someone who sees this film be woefully misinformed?… absolutelly not.

        • Infact I heard him in a radio interview saying it was a “lie” to say there is a waiting problem in Canada.
          And this was NPR.

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          Run this by your wife Mr. Lynne and then respond if you like.

          • … Michael Moore anectdote.

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            Here

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            Sadly for those invested in this odd knock against the Canadian system, the wait times are largely hype. A 2003 study found that the median wait time for elective surgeries in Canada was a little more than four weeks, while diagnostic tests took about three (with no wait times to speak of for emergency surgeries). By contrast, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development data from 2001 found that 32 percent of American patients waited more than a month for elective surgery, and 5 percent waited more than four months. That, of course, doesn’t count the millions of Americans who never seek surgery, or even the basic care necessary for a diagnosis, because they lack health coverage. If you can’t see a doctor in the first place, you never have to wait for treatment.

            • “A 2003 study found that the median wait time for elective surgeries in Canada was a little more than four weeks, while diagnostic tests took about three (with no wait times to speak of for emergency surgeries).”

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              What study? Name Please.  What is their definition of “elective surgery”? Is a hip or knee replacement elective? Median means half are above and half are below. So perhaps some minor surgeries are done within one week. (there are many more minor elective surgeries then major ones)Others could take 2 years. These statistics mean nothing.

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              But wait, your
              “By contrast, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development data from 2001 found that 32 percent of American patients waited more than a month for elective surgery, and 5 percent waited more than four months.”

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              So Mrs. Lynne, In canada half the people have to wait more than 4 weeks for elective surgery. In USA only 32% have to wait more than 4 weeks for elective surgery.

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              Thanks for proving my point Mrs. Lynne. If only Michael Moore gave us this information.

              • What study? Name Please.  What is their definition of “elective surgery”? Is a hip or knee replacement elective? Median means half are above and half are below. So perhaps some minor surgeries are done within one week. (there are many more minor elective surgeries then major ones)Others could take 2 years. These statistics mean nothing.

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                Great question. Where’s the study

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                The study was tough to find because it’s quoted so often, yet cited so infrequently.  Money quote from the study:

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                blockquote>The lack of standardized government data on waiting lists makes it difficult to conclude with any certainty the magnitude of waiting lists in Canada.

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                What about waiting lists in the U.S.?

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                On average, U.S. citizens experience some of the shortest wait times for non-emergency surgeries among industrialized countries, although the waiting times vary considerably by procedure…”

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                See! See!  There are no waiting times in Canada. 

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                This, the Single Payer Believers claim, despite the summary to the same article that states: 

                “The U.S. does not experience problems with waiting lists as much as Canada does, although the problem does exists for some Americans.”

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                I’m telling you, Single Payer is a religion. They Believe it’s cheaper, better, faster. 

                • I don’t care where it was published, or peer reviewed.

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                  I didn’t use it to try to prove my point.  The Single Payer Apostles used the article to to try to prove that there were no wait times in Canada.

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                  I simply took the time to read the article.  And, if you do the same, it concludes the very opposite.

                • Classic misdirection. he didn’t quote the study you linked too.  He quoted the data that the OECD collected.  Learn to read.

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                  I’ve learned to read.  Have been reading for years.

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                  Why is it that you just can’t make a point, without beginning or ending with a pointless personal attack, which frankly undermines any real logical attempt. 

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                  Your cut-and-paste cited an article, the author is which used a 2003 study in support of the position that wait times in Canada weren’t bad compared to the US.  Then, he cites a 2001 study with some numbers and connects the two sources. 

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                  But, your source ignores the very premise and summary conclusion of the 2003 study: 

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                  “The U.S. does not experience problems with waiting lists as much as Canada does, although the problem does exists for some Americans.”

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                  Bias exposed.  Why would it have been so difficult to pull the real conclusion from those sources:  wait times are longer in Canada, but not a crisis, particular in acute care areas.  That so hard?

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                  There, and I wrote that without calling you stupid, arrogant or insinuating that you couldn’t think, read, or write.

                • I think we just proved these bastards wrong. Without really trying.
                  It’s a freakin’ cult.

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                  I want my Democratic Party back.

                • “Furthermore, the short waiting times apply mainly to those who have insurance;
                  for those who do not, the waiting line is arguably infinite. Finally, the short waiting lists in the
                  U.S. should be tempered with the realization that the lack of universal healthcare in the U.S.
                  means less demand for the system. If there were universal healthcare without an expansion of
                  capacity, one might see how waiting lines in the U.S. could increase [12].”

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                  …

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                  “Also, more Americans
                  report problems with obtaining referrals and cost of care as obstacles to seeing specialists [13].”

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                  blockquote>What is clear from this analysis is that Canadian waiting lists are undoubtedly a problem for many Canadians on certain elective procedures.  What is not clear, however, is the magnitude of the problem, and it is certainly not necessarily true that there is a Canadian “waiting list crisis.”[emphasis mine]

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          • The reporter found someone–like his mother– who experienced an unreasonable wait, and then MM called him a liar.

  4. below you will find some rather contrite words from the very NPR reporter who did the piece where mere mortal Michael Moore misspoke (see 3rd entry in comments section).

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    Yeah, Moore told us a bit about the NPR flap at the health care town mtg in NH on 6/22/07; it occurred when Moore was irritated and generalized “that’s a lie” – he was reacting to the interviewer’s implication that the Canadian system has worse problems than the US system, but Moore said it in reply to a specific question so he misspoke.

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    So, yes, even Michael Moore misspeaks at times but it certainly does NOT alter the truth of his overall message!!!

    From NPR’s “health reform” blog:

    …Some critics call it Moore?s best movie yet. But how accurate is it? WBUR?s Health and Science reporter Allan Coukell gives ?Sicko? the ?Michael Moore? treatment….

    Click hereto listen to the story

    Click here for Michael Moore?s official web site

    —

    Comments

      * Mike Petit posted:  Comment posted June 29th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

      I listened to Allan Coukell?s review of Sicko and couldn?t help but feel a hint of hypocracy in the review. To pick his mother to interview, knowing that she?s waiting for elective surgery is hardly representative. I?ll bet that if she didn?t have any insurance or money she?d wait a lot longer here for her knee replacement. I?ll bet the average 16 hour wait in the Canadian ER pales in comparison to local city hospitals.

      It seems that he misses the overall point that we have the most expensive healthcare in the world and it?s not nearly the best. While Coukell focuses on average life expectancy which places the US as # 26, he should instead look at overall health care which places the US much further down on the list.

      Mr. Coukell must have an interest in the existing heath care system for him to ?cherry pick? his statistics as he did. His review of the movie reminded me of the orchestrated opposition to a 20th century heath care system that we experienced in the 90?s.

      I?m disappointed at WBUR for having such biased information on the air.

      Mike Petit  Sterling, MA

    —

      * Ann E Malone, RN, MSN posted:  Comment posted June 29th, 2007 at 9:21 pm

      ditto, mike. thank you for speaking for so many of us working on the front lines of our broken healthcare system and on the front lines of activism for fundamental reform. The status quo and ?incremental? reforms ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.

      GUARANTEED COVERAGE FOR ALL WITH PUBLICLY ADMINISTERED FINANCING IS THE ONLY EFFECTIVE SOLUTION. Visit http://www.SickoCure… for details.

      folks, follow the money trail and then connect the dots. you?ll find your answer to WBUR?s biased ?coverage? on this issue.

      Sincerely and in health, Ann E Malone, RN, MSN

      P.S. as Michael Moore said to us in NH recently, another obscene embarrassment is that the U.S. media is focused on arguing about waiting times in E.R.?s and for elective surgery, about the most accurate # of uninsured (45 vs 47 Mil), etc, while in the U.S. we have 45-47 MILLION AMERICANS TOTALLY WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE and the 200 Mil who are ?insured? are often unable to get the care they need. It?s like those who argue about the most accurate # of how many people were killed in the Holocaust.

      I could not agree more. Thank you, Michael Moore.

    —

      * Allan Coukell posted:  Comment posted June 30th, 2007 at 8:28 am

      In my 7-minute review of Sicko, I try to give a sense of the strengths AND weaknesses of Canadian healthcare – something Moore manifestly fails to do in his much longer film. In focusing on waiting times, I am responding to the movie, which deliberately and wrongly suggests there are no waits in Canada. Waits are not inconsequential. A system that leaves people disabled and in pain for years at a time is not functioning properly.

      As I note in the review, there are many ways to compare health systems. But the DALE – disability adjusted life expectancy – is the key measure developed by the World Health Organization for its Global Burden of Disease Project, which issued a ?report card? on the health care systems of 191 countries.

      An objective listener will find that my review carefully notes the shortcomings of US health care.

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    For factual and useful data about US health care reform and ways you can get involved to make positive change, please visit SickoCure.org, GuaranteedHealthcare.org and Healthcare-Now.org

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    and

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    for info about MA state-level reform (NOT the fake reform that’s currently being foisted upon us with the new law, which, btw, was largely written by the insurance industry, Romney, and the Heritage Foundation)
    please visit MassCare.org/legislation and DefendHealth.org

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    Thank you.

    • I Understood Moore to be calling the people who claim the system as a whole in Canada is slower than that of the United States. Not the individual pointed out.

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      This is bad. He debates the other side by calling them liars when they point out problems. Moore basically says if you believe the Canadian health care system is inferior to that in the US you are a liar.  I cannot take someone like that seriously. And anyone who does nbot have a problem Moore’s ‘liars’ assertions cannot think critically.

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