Robert Meeropol spoke; I found this especially affecting as his parents, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, were executed in 1953. He was three when they were arrested, and six when they were executed. He asked who studies or follows up on the children left behind by the thousands of parents executed by the state?
Perhaps the best words to end my plea for the ending of the death penalty in this country come from Bartolomeo Vanzetti:
?I champion the weak, the poor, the oppressed, the simple and the persecuted. I maintain that whosoever benefits or hurts a man benefits or hurts the whole species. I sought my liberty and the liberty of all, my happiness and the happiness of all. I wanted a roof for every family, bread for every mouth, education for every heart, light for every intellect. I am convinced that human history has not yet begun, that we find ourselves in the last period of the prehistoric. I see with the eyes of my soul how the sky is diffused with the rays of the new millennium.? ? Bartolomeo Vanzetti.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but has it ever been established that Sacco and Vanzetti were innocent? My understanding (which may be out of date) is that there’s some murkiness, particularly around Vanzetti. Ditto the Rosenbergs, where Ethel was clearly innocent but Julius might well have been a spy.
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I oppose the death penalty, and the tradition of “shooting” spies stems from military justice and has no place in civil society in my view, but I’m just wondering.
For the book that absolutely convinced ME that Sacco and Vanzetti were both innocent, I recommend, “The Case that Would not Die” – read it and tell me what you think then. What is for sure, is that this trial took place during a red scare and was not a “fair trial” – but as I said, read the book and see what you think
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As for the Rosenbergs, their trial also took place during a red scare, and the height of the cold war. I remember the impact of that trial on the Russian Jewish Community where I grew up, even though I was only 5 at the time of the trial, and about 6 at the time of the execution.
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It is my opinion, again based on my experience with media about them, a good place to begin “these days” if you are interested is a film done by their grand daughter about their legacy http://www.films42.c…
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Were the Rosenberg’s both guilty of some level of espionage? I do not personally think so. Were they “guilty as charged” – probably not. But their politics was certainly unpopular, and some of their associates perhaps dangerous.
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But then:
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And do I think the death penalty is worth keeping? Definitely not.
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I would far rather have my country stand with Italy then with China on this one.
Sacco and Vanzetti may never be proven innocent, what is fairly certain is that they were clearly not proven guilty which is what counts at the end of this day in this country. Their trial was terribly conducted, a clearly biased jury, railroading of facts, and a biased judge. I see reason to doubt their innocence but no reason to doubt that their ultimate conviction rested on faulty evidence.
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Additionally, and I say this as the gransdon of a murder victim, there is no economic, political, ethical, and most importantly no moral reason for the death penalty. Would I like to see my grandfather’s murderer die? Of course I would, it would satisfy my thirst for vengence, but it would not satsify the true thirst for justice. And if the wrong man was put to death for the crime that would only add insult and injury to my family’s pain. True justice is when the system has proven beyond reasonable doubt that a man is guilty, and punishes him by taking away his freedom, which is a far more civilized and in many ways a far more appropriate punishment than taking away his life. It forces the criminal to reflect on his crime and way he has alienated himself from society.
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There is no room for the death penalty in a democratic society.
The director of that organization, himself the son of a murdered parent, Robert Tenny Cushing was one of today’s speakers. He also adamantly opposes the death penalty. It really was a thoughtful, deep, provocative commemoration and I was glad I attended. The Massachusetts Citizens Against the Death Penalty [MCADP] web site http://www.mcadp.org e-mail macadp@earthlink.net is to be commended. I had not joined it – once the Commonwealth of Massachusetts pays me, I think I will join it. [Work for the indigent, and the not-quite indigent is not for the faint of heart, or those who believe that being an attorney means you must drive a BMW].
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As another attorney told me recently, after a particularly hard fought case with a verdict that hurt – “If you want to win, go work for the government.” I thanked her for her tough love and got to work on the next case.
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If the United States of America is to remain the country my immigrant ancestors came to for a new life, the concept of “innocent until proven guilty” had best be defended with zeal.
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Whether anyone is “sure” that Sacco, Vanzetti, or the Rosenbergs is “innocent” – who is sure they were guilty as charged?
I was just asking as a matter of historical interest, but you and jconway have stated the bottom line.
Charles Manson, The Onion Field Murderers, ad nauseum
I would suggest, JimC, that you attend an SV event, do some research and listen to the evidence that was presented at trial (and in the media of the day) and tell me how jurors who use the term “guinea (sp?)” is in any way indicative of a fair trial. To perpetuate the myth that there is some question that this was a fair trial, out of ignorance, is an insult to those who have spent years analyzing this event.
How about reading what I wrote before replying? I did not perpetuate any myth, I asked a question. I never used the term fair trial, and I insulted no one.
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I’m glad you enjoyed the event, and I’m sure I would have enjoyed it as well, but please, cool your jets.
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is exactly the same as perpetuating the myth. Please don’t ever tell me to cool anything, because it might result in my cooling many things you might not want to be cooled.
No, asking is always valid.
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But I won’t ask you to cool anything.
Toughest guy on the phone…
Just what the rational world needs: words of “wisdom” from Michael Dukakis. There is plenty of evidence as to their guilt, and several books which point this out. And now we are to have sympathy for the Rosenbergs, too? Oh yes, they were simply concerned about economic injustice in the U.S. Worse than all is the fact that anyone who in any way helped the Soviet Union (the most evil empire in world history–only fools and dupes would think otherwise) to hurt the U.S. deserves some sort of punishment.
One, I have expressed my opposition for the death penalty here several times, and I’m not going to repeat the reasons why. In point of fact, the Sacco & Vanzetti case is a perfect example: prosecutorial discretion as to charging and discrimination by the prosecutor during the trial and by the jury. Actually, I have repeated the opposition to the death penalty.
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Two, there is a fairly lengthy discussion of the Sacco & Vanzetti case on one of the CourtTV web sites. I don’t have the URL here in Germany, but you can probably easily find it by doing a Google search.
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Three, it appears to be the case that Julius Rosenberg actually did provide information to the Soviets, but that Ethyl did not. I do not know what information Julius provided, but I sincerely doubt that the information would have aided the Soviets in any significant way. The atomic bomb blasts at Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have provided the primary clues to the Soviets: enrich uranium sufficiently, and you can make a bomb out of it. The technical details of making a bomb out of sufficiently enriched uranium are not that complicated.
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That said, should Julius have been executed even if he provided information to the Soviets? No. The reason being that he could have been isolated in prison and he could never have provided information to the Soviets ever again. Case closed. It really is that simple.
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As an aside, I suspect, but cannot prove, that Robert Oppenheimer, the chief researcher on the Manhatten project, probably provided more information to the Soviets than the Rosenbergs did. Want to speculate?
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As a further aside, where in the world did the epithet “guinea” to refer to Italians come from? It makes no sense at all. I can’t even understand where “dago” might have come from. “Kraut” (referring to Germans) I can understand.
Both Guinea and Dago refer to early Italian prowess as sailors. Guinea is from the Guinea Coast, and Dago is short for Diego – at first Spanish, then all sailors, and later Italian. Wop, the slur of my childhood, stood for With Out Papers.
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My childhood was in a very multi-ethnic neighborhood – Italian, Irish, Armenian, Jewish, Swedish, Polish, French, Lebanese, and a lone black person. Our only real proximity was poverty, as usually the various nationalities sorted themselves out into neighborhoods. I was always curious about these names.
…Diego in Spanish is the word for the English name “James.” Remember “Don Diego”–Zorro (“Don” was obviously an honorific)? Diego became associated with Spanish sailors? I’m amazed.
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Your construction for WOP is quite interesting.
I believe “guinea” means “black” or “dark” and the original inference was that Italians were not “pure” Europeans because of African and Moorish influence.
Same acronym, but applied differently.
had PP’s meaning. that is, without papers, and was aimed solely at the italians. many italians flocked to die in the mines of the upper great lakes.
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my great grandfather was a german wop. that is, he jumped ship (prussian navy) in NYC. even my beloved william lloyd garrison came from parents who freely fudged their citizenship (US or Canada), depending on how things looked on the other side of the fence at any given time. so many whites/europeans were illegal immigrants when europe was the main contributor to the cheap labor force. but i digress. back to the thread…
so many whites/europeans were illegal immigrants when europe was the main contributor to the cheap labor force…
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Chinese workers were primary contributors to the cheap labor force (imported to construct the railroads, you know), but I’m not going to belabor the issue.
were built to move raw materials, such as coal and copper. these things were mined largely by non-asians, afaik. the country is big. there was/is plenty of opportunity for all ethnicities to get used up by the big money enterprises of the day. cheap labor came in all languages.
There is also a Woody Guthrie album (as they were then called) dedicated to songs about Sacco and Vanzetti.
the public and officials can be moved to committing horrific acts (I consider execution a horrific act) by fear and pack mentality.
One speaker today stated that a resolution will be filed in the United Nations in November to outlaw the death penalty.
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The UN can’t outlaw anything. I can propose treaties that might bind ratifying countries. And that’s even open to the individual countries ratification policies, as well as their–I forget what the term is (reservations?), but it essentially the equivalent of Bush’s signing statements. In other words, “we will agree to ratify the proposed treaty, but only to this extent.”
After all, I wasn’t taking verbatim notes – but I will watch for and report on the resolution when/if filed.