The House Foreign Affairs Committee just passed the Armenian Genocide Resolution with a 27-21 vote. Democratic Leaders say they will bring the Resolution to the floor for a vote.
It’s about time (or more correctly, 90 years overdue)
Please share widely!
I did hear that Bush, Condi and the crew came out today to push to vote down the resolution. Truth is truth, that’s what the White Houses needs to understand. It’s just another black mark to his presidency.
I have posted before on this and strongly criticized the ADL for denying the Armenian genocide. I still don’t think they’ve gone far enough.
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That being said, Congress is not the ADL. It is not a civil rights organization. It should act in the national interest, which, it seems to me, is not, at the moment, necessarily the same as the interest we have in setting the historical record straight. There may be a time when it will be appropriate for Congress to act on the Armenian genocide resolution, but that time isn’t now, when we are relying on Turkish airspace for ferrying supplies and troops to Iraq and on Turkish cooperation in the north of the country. Whether you think we should still be in Iraq or not, it seems foolish to me to pass a symbolic resolution at this moment, when the geopolitical implications are potentially so significant.
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TedF
This isn’tthe time was exactly Bush’s agruement but the reality is, in a complex political world, you can make that arguement for decades.
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This vote isn’t about Turkish airspace. Turkey will do what every country does – whatever is in it’s best interest at the moment.
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Hitler said “who remembers the Armenians” as he targeted the jews and other ethnic and social minorities. Finally, the US has the opportunity to remember.
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Let me see. 1965. What was it called that Lyndon Johnson signed? Oh, yes. The Civil Rights Act.
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…that’s why it’s called the 1964 civil rights act.
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The voting rights act was passed in 1965.
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Actually, regarding This vote isn’t about Turkish airspace. Turkey will do what every country does – whatever is in it’s best interest at the moment it is about Turkish airspace, but it is also an issue of whether the US would come to Turkey’s aid in tne event of an attack on Turkey from the Kurds in northern Iraq.
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Recall that Turkey is a Nato ally, and the US under the Nato treaty has an obligation to consider an attack on a Nato ally as an attack on the US. Unlike Afghanistan, the war on Iraq is not a Nato operation. But, regarding Iraq, the US ran roughshod over Turkish interests in invading Iraq, deposing its government, and failing the occupation. And the fact that the US was unwilling to take Turkish interests into consideration in so doing more than suggests that the US is uninterested in coming to Turkey’s aid. And largely meaningless resolutions such as this only exacerbates the situation.
you are of course, correct, Raj on the the Civil Right and Voting Rights Act dates. My sleepy and sloppy mind aside, that doesn’t change my response that Congress has acted on civil rights.
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Not a eaningless resolution to the hundreds of thousands of Armenians who lost family nor to supporters like myself, who learned of the genocide not in history classes in my grade school but from friends whose families has suffered.
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Of course Congress has passed civil rights legislation. My point is that Congress is not just a debating society or a group dedicated to righting historical wrongs. On this issue, I agree with the administration. (Did I just write that?
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TedF
…House Democrats take the time to consider a meaningless resolution about an event that happened 92 years ago, but can’t get anything passed that might affect the here and now.
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Actually, the House Democrat’s resolution (which would not need to be signed by the president) may have an adverse effect in the here and now–by further alienating our Turkish allies. Way to go, House Dems.
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Republicans in Congress may be vile (at least many of them), but Democrats are useless.
should have happened much sooner. It should be done. In your postings and discussions, we know your heritage I would think you should have a strong opinion that these things should be acknowledged and we can all learn from our history. IMHO to say that a genocide should not be acknowledged because of political inconvenience is plain stupid. Right is right and truth is truth.
In your postings and discussions, we know your heritage I would think you should have a strong opinion that these things should be acknowledged and we can all learn from our history.
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What is this idiocy supposed to mean? I had believed that I had made it clear that I was born in the USofA. I will make it clearer. My ancesters emigrated to the US several centuries ago from the UK.
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If you want to possibly piss off a military ally (Turkey) by having congress pass off a meaningless resolution (the resolution isn’t going to bring anyone back to life), feel free. It’s stupid, but that is what I have come to expect from more than a few people who are not part of the reality community.
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Turkey is between a rock and a hard place: stradled between two worlds (Europe and Arab). They want to be part of Europe (the EU) but it is highly unlikely that the EU will admit them to membership any time soon (Turkey is, of course majority Muslim), and if the EU rejects them, they may very well go to the Muslim world. I’m sure that you would like that /sarcasm.
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A slap in the face like this from its supposed ally the US might do nothing but speed the latter process.
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If you actually knew something about Turkish politics, you might reconsider. The current PM Erdogan and president of Turkey are members of a Muslim-near party. In light of the recent elections in Turkey, that party has (IIRC) an absolute majority in Turkey’s parliament (if not absolute, close). In previous decades, Turkey’s military was able to maintain Attaturk’s secularism, but the overwhelming vote in favor of Erdogan’s party has pretty much neutered the military in that regard.
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So, as I wrote, if you want to piss off a Nato ally, feel free. You might rue the day that you did so.
An acknowledgment of a genocide will not bring people back to life so it’s useless. Now that’s profound. Do you honestly believe that?
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So what have we done to them that made them so offended now. They wouldn’t allow the US to create a northern front when invading Iraq. Turkey had done a few things in recent history that we have looked the other way, try lookup up the Kurds and Cypriots. While I am not an expert I am well acquainted with the dynamics of the area. This particular issue will upset the country. As you noted, the US sentiment is not good, but they still belong to the U.N. who acknowledged the genocide and want to get in the EU who have countries who also acknowledged the genocide.
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A genocide didn’t happen because it’s not politically expedient is wrong. Turkey to this day still does not acknowledge the genocide ever existed.
An acknowledgment of a genocide will not bring people back to life so it’s useless. Now that’s profound. Do you honestly believe that?
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Yes. The US Congress has other more urgent fish to fry. Like passing a budget.
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They (Turkey) wouldn’t allow the US to create a northern front when invading Iraq.
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Well, of course not. That should be obvious. The Turks opposed the obvious instability that would result from a US war on Iraq. They would have been stupid to allow the US to use Turkey as a staging location for an operation that was not a Nato operation. Apparently, you are unable to understand the difference. Maybe Americans believe that they should be the Rulers of the Universe, while ignoring the interests of the locals–I’ve noticed that in other contexts–but it doesn’t quite work that way.
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try lookup up the Kurds and Cypriots
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I’m fairly familiar with the issue regarding Cyprus: the Greeks (EU member) and Turks (currently not an EU member), both of which are Nato members, have been at loggerheads over Cyprus for millenia. I’m less familiar with the Kurds, but the PKK, the (communist) Kurdish Peoples’ Party were attacking Turkish facilities inside and outside of Turkey several decades ago. More than a few of the terrorist operations in Germany in the 1980s were by the PKK. What either of these
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As you noted, the US sentiment is not good, but they still belong to the U.N. who acknowledged the genocide…
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I’m sorry, but you have been misinformed. The UN didn’t acknowledge the genocide. A subcommittee of the UNHigh Commissioner of Human Rights, the United Nations’ Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities, did. That is hardly the United Nations.
Germany, Italy, France and Poland have also acknowledged the genocide, the EU is not a Greek vs. Turkey issue.
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I was also unaware that our budget hung on the balance and that a vote to acknowledge the Armenian genocide would actually imploded our entire economy. Let’s not get carried away with the budget.
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We disagree, but for many reasons we should acknowledge genocides when they happen, the EU should continue with their efforts to have Turkey also acknowledge the genocide as part of them joining.
the EU is not a Greek vs. Turkey issue
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…one of the primary impediments to Turkey’s entry into the EU has been Greece, and the issue has been Cyprus.
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Apparently you are also unaware that…
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Germany, Italy, France and Poland have also acknowledged the genocide
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…the EU has never been able to come up with a uniform foreign policy. That has been one of its failings in forming a political federation instead of merely a free-trade zone. And, accordingly, the fact that some of the EU’s members have acknowledged the genocide is pretty much irrelevant to the EU as a whole.
I don’t disagree that Greece (for more reasons than Cyprus) has been the most active in not allowing Turkey in the EU.
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But your argument for the US to not acknowledge the Armenian genocide was that we would lose Turkey as an ally. I was merely pointing out that many EU members acknowledge the Armenian genocide, but that seems to not have an impact as Turkey wants to join the EU. France even made it criminal offense to not acknowledge the genocide.
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Yes, the EU has more of an economic impact than political. But they still want to join EU with a large group of members who acknowledge the genocide, they do so for the same reason why they will still be allies with the US. Because it is in their best interests. All I see is a lot of huffing and puffing and some gestures from Turkey.
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If they didn’t want to have genocide attacked to their history, maybe they shouldn’t have murdered 1.5 million people.
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Do you believe that there was a genocide?
Do you believe that there was a genocide?
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Your little “gotcha”-style question is irrelevant to the issues at point. I will presume for the sake of argument that there was a genocide in 1915. The issues that are on point is why the US Congress is wasting its time at this point in time in connection with a largely meaningless resolution that may alienate an ally, instead of taking care of what it is supposed to be doing, such as passing a budget. Also, exercising oversight over the executive branch. I seriously don’t understand why you cannot understand that.
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But your argument for the US to not acknowledge the Armenian genocide was that we would lose Turkey as an ally. I was merely pointing out that many EU members acknowledge the Armenian genocide, but that seems to not have an impact as Turkey wants to join the EU.
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Apparently, you have not been paying attention to politics in Turkey. They just elected a Muslim party (Erdogan’s) to a majority in parliament. I suspect, but cannot prove, that they are hedging their bets with regard EU membership. If not the EU, they will likely try to become closer to other majority Muslim countries. Would you want that to happen?
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I was merely pointing out that many EU members acknowledge the Armenian genocide…
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You cited four. There are many more EU members than four. Moreover, do you know whether the European Commission or the European Parliament has condemned Turkey for the 1915 genocide?
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France even made it criminal offense to not acknowledge the genocide.
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Aside from the fact that that is irrelevant, I will merely point out that it would be, in the US, a violation of freedom of speech. Do you approve of violations of freedom of speech?
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All I see is a lot of huffing and puffing and some gestures from Turkey.
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Gestures like…refusing to allow the US to use Turkey as a staging ground for its war on Iraq? And refusing to allow the US to make use of Turkish air space for attacks on Iraq? Those strike me as being more than mere gestures.
My last question is the only question that matters. That’s where we differ. I do understand what you are trying to say but I completely disagree.
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All countries should acknowledge the genocide and have Turkey come out and make the acknowledgment. Your note about France is odd to say the least, I must approve of violations of freedom of speech by pointing out what other countries do, get a grip.
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Turkey does want to join the EU in the worst way. Yes, I named 4 countries in the EU, the point was that they were in the EU, you are denying that? Plus the gestures were before this vote, so what’s your point? Is your point, that they are not really allies?
A comparison of Governor Bush and President Bush.
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I’m glad the House passed this. It probably won’t mess with the National Interests much. If this Turkish government becomes uncooperative with the U.S. it won’t be because of a resolution, but because on some other level, Turkey sees its national interests as divergent from the U.S.’ interests.
Don’t be silly
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You are going around in circles
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You are the one who has been consistently unable to address the issues that I raised. I have not been going around in circles; to the contrary, I have been consistent in my arguments, and the facts to back them up.
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My last question is the only question that matters. That’s where we differ.
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The first is nonsense, and the second–do you purport to be able to read my mind? Do you believe that there was a genocide? is irrelevant to any of the issues that I raised. Why did you raise an irrelevant “gotcha” issue.” Moreover, you have not addressed any of the issues that I raised, neither the fact that the Congress is spending time on an issue that is irrelevant to today, and that its activity may well alienate an ally.
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Let me ask you this. Why has Congress never addressed the Japanese rape of Nanking, the forgotten holocaust of WWII that occurred between Dec 1937 and Mar 1938, and which has never been acknowledged by the Japanese? Indeed, Japan denies any of its attrocities during WWII in the Pacific–which actually began in 1933–many of which involved American POWs. It seems to me that that is far more relevant than something that happened decades earlier. Why has Congress not condemned the Japanese, not only for what they did during WWII in the Pacific, but also for their unwillingness to own up to what they did?
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Your note about France is odd to say the least, I must approve of violations of freedom of speech by pointing out what other countries do, get a grip.
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You should be the one to get a grip. You are the one who raised the speech issue regarding France, not I. In point of fact, it is illegal in Germany to display Nazi symbols, or to sell Hitler’s Mein Kampf (although that is readily available over the Internet. In Austria, it is illegal to deny the Holocaust–that is why the Holocaust denier David Irving was arrested for trying to re-enter Austria a few years ago. All of these violations of free speech are nonsense.
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Turkey does want to join the EU in the worst way.
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Perhaps. But also perhaps Turkey is beginning to realize that they will not be admitted into the EU, and are taking measures to hedge their bets. Angele Merkel is opposed to Turkey’s entry, and I would suspect that Sarkozy is, too. As are the Greeks. The leadership of Turkey elected in recent elections are members of a largely Muslim religious party. Certainly that should tell you where Turkish opinion is going.
You have not addressed the issue, just rather make up a point then keep harping on it. France for example, find where I said that I was in favor of what they were doing. I merely pointed it out as an example of what members of the EU had done and Turkey still wants to be a member. That was to directly address the question of what would Turkey do if the US acknowledged the genocide. But instead of acknowledging this simple fact instead I get; crimes, the horror, you support crimes … for heavens sake.
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This is the point.
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Genocide is genocide we should acknowledge it. You don’t feel this way for political purposes. I disagree with that,
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Whatever… enjoy the weekend.
Clearly, not ready to be put in charge of foreign policy.
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I wonder if this is really little more than an attempt to wrong-foot Turkey in some way that causes yet more calamity in Iraq that can later be blamed on Bush.