Wow. I mean, wow. They must be really desperate over at Team Idon’tknowski (speaking of which, Dick Howe has an excellent rundown of the latest SCHIP/veto hilarity). Check out this mailer, just now hitting the mailboxes of the 5th District.
Ooooooh! Look at those big, spooky, exotic, illegal eyes peering across the border — or maybe into your living room! OOGITY BOOGITY! Are you scared yet? If not, maybe you should review the NRA’s pamphlet helpfully explaining the threat from “illegal alien gangs” — which, as you may recall, reminded us that certain illegal aliens may be minorities!!
But I digress. Here’s the flipside of Ogo’s mailer, which contains more lies than you can shake a stick at.
First, here’s the Tsongas campaign’s statement on this nonsense:
“The tone of this direct mail brochure – paid for and authorized by Republican Jim Ogonowski – is exactly the tone of politics Niki Tsongas wants to change. The Ogonowski brochure is filled with false information and it is the worst kind of scare tactics. The mail piece cites the Lowell Sun, but the Sun has never published statements even remotely resembling what the brochure suggests.
“Niki has made her position clear that we need comprehensive immigration reform that includes improved border security, a crack-down on employers who hire illegal immigrants, and a process that allows those immigrants who are already here to work toward eventual citizenship. She has never supported amnesty for undocumented workers.”
It’s almost pointless to do a detailed rundown of all the inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and falsehoods in that text. Doing so would give this rubbish more respect than it deserves. Let’s just summarize: Niki Tsongas doesn’t support amnesty; Niki Tsongas doesn’t support granting benefits to illegal immigrants; and Congress isn’t “actually plotting” (wow — paranoid much?) to “sneak amnesty for illegal immigrants on the American people.”
Really, that last bit is completely unhinged.
I mean, Ogonowski had a chance. This wasn’t a regular election. Maybe the voters of MA-05 wanted some change, thought it would be good to send a Republican to Washington just to prove that they could. Jim is doing a great job pretending that he’s not really a Republican. Coulda worked.
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Then this.
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The most winnable federal election in Massachusetts this century, and eventually they have to give into the desire to bring race into it. Not a piece detailing his military service. Not even on his plan for getting out of Iraq. No — scary swarthy people. In a district with a notable urban and immigrant population, who won’t be scared by the threat from across the Rio Grande.
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Team Ogonowski, you just blew it. The last two weeks of this campaign are now about the crass, craven, slime that mark you as a candidate, and would mark you as a politician.
…there weren’t so many people out there like Eabo who drink in this propaganda as gospel truth. It doesn’t matter if it’s true, it matters if people believe it. If you tell a lie often enough…
is if a plurality of voters in the district believe it. And they don’t. It just amazes me that they’d blow it this late, when they’ve run a decent campaign this far. It’s almost as if they don’t want to win.
Here are numbers on the English Immersion Ballot Question in 2002 for the 5th District and for the state(Source 2002 PD-43). You'll note that the support in the 5th District was significantly higher than the state as a whole. The same people who supported the English Immersion Bill are against amnesty for illegals.
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p> Yes No Yes% No%
Acton 5389 3244 62.42% 37.58%
Andover 9953 3209 75.62% 24.38%
Ayer 1591 536 74.80% 25.20%
Berlin 907 292 75.65% 24.35%
Billerica 9915 2720 78.47% 21.53%
Bolton 1410 602 70.08% 29.92%
Boxborough 1379 632 68.57% 31.43%
Carlisle 1592 904 63.78% 36.22%
Chelmsford 10685 3539 75.12% 24.88%
Concord 4684 3207 59.36% 40.64%
Dracut 7397 1903 79.54% 20.46%
Dunstable 961 300 76.21% 23.79%
Groton 2772 1158 70.53% 29.47%
Harvard 1671 875 65.63% 34.37%
Haverhill 13516 3375 80.02% 19.98%
Hudson 4808 1704 73.83% 26.17%
Lancaster 1670 513 76.50% 23.50%
Lawrence 5689 4382 56.49% 43.51%
Littleton 2381 995 70.53% 29.47%
Lowell 13859 5463 71.73% 28.27%
Maynard 2803 1336 67.72% 32.28%
Methuen 9599 2055 82.37% 17.63%
Shirley 1645 495 76.87% 23.13%
Stow 1801 959 65.25% 34.75%
Sudbury 5158 2551 66.91% 33.09%
Tewksbury 8375 1996 80.75% 19.25%
Tyngsborough 3041 810 78.97% 21.03%
Wayland 4081 2239 64.57% 35.43%
Westford 6323 2183 74.34% 25.66% 145055 54177 72.81% 27.19%
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Statewide 1359935 640525 67.98% 32.02%
….again:
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You don’t know this. You have a very bad habit of presuming knowledge you have no basis to support. While logic may dictate that there is likely a large overlap between supporters of the two idealogies you link, your blanket statement is intellectually dishonest conjecture.
…decrying “disgusting” Democratic tactics and defending this distortion. Of course, I’m sure you loved the “rapist in the garage” ad that the Healy campaign ran.
are whoever put that disgusting NRA ad in the middle of the the two scans of the Ogonowski mailing.
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That is intentionally trying to connect him with something he has nothing to do with and no input as to its content.
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I’m sure there’s fine print there somewhere saying that its unconnected, but the fact is that the image is there just to try to taint Ogonowski with someone else’s mistakes.
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But I guess that’s how the partisans work when supporting their candidate.
….the NRA stuff ruins the post unfortunately.
This tactic would make Joseph Goebbels proud.
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I watched the odious Chris Matthews the other night, braying on incoherently about a fictional “anti-soldier” remark attributed to radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh.
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Filling the screen behind Matthews was an old photo of Limbaugh with his trademark cigar & michrophone, and a headline from four years ago that blared: “DRUG RUSH”.
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The end justifies the means.
I’ve known many Merrimack Valley immigrants, and commented favorably on their worth. Plainly, Ogonowski doesn’t known what he’s talking about. (Again)
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What’s scary with the strategy he’s chosen is its divisiveness, its “us vs. them” premise, its pandering to the worst in America. I don’t believe what Ogonowski proposes, furthermore, I believe that he’s in no way capable of discharging the office he seeks.
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If I were a Republican, I’d be ashamed to have him considered a public voice of my party, and ashamed of having these ads advocating my candidacy.
Of course that is what Ogo is resorting to. Its all the GOP has left at this point.
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There was a time when the GOP has something of a coherent platform that revolved around less government intrusion, caution against too many military commitments, and fiscal restraint. But Bush (Rove) have totally destroyed all that branding. The GOP can’t use most of its familiar decades old talking point anymore.
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So what they are left with is this. Fear of the “other”. Swarthy immigrants, dirty hippies, sinful homosexuals. They’re all coming for you, your children and your medicaid.
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Really what we’re seeing at this point is the nasty ugly rump of the GOP base, franticly waving their arms as the country wisely turns against them and their ugly divisive politics.
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After 2008, when the GOP has lost more Senate, House seats and the White House, they’ll go back to the drawing board and try to return to the basic conservative themes that have served them well in the past. Until then, we’re all going to be treated to the ugly spectacle of messages that depend on fear.
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All you have to do is look at the flyers message which is “Vote No On Tsongas”. There’s no message of hope, no promise of accomplishment, no message about a new day dawning.
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And that’s because the GOP has no record of accomplishment to stand on. All the have left is fear of the “other”.
…is a campaign where they had a working message (Jim stands with you against Washington) enjoying some success. And they still couldn’t keep away from this dreck.
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Which means those campaigns when they have nothing to go on from day one (John Sununu, Susan Collins), it’s going to be much uglier.
One of the RMG denizens keeps posting a pointer to a book whose central question is: “Has contemporary liberalism’s devotion to individual liberty come at the expense of our society’s obligations to children?”
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Which leads to the obvious question: when did the GOP become the party opposed to individual liberty?
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As my mother likes to remind me, Gerald Ford would be considered a flaming liberal by many in today’s GOP.
“plotting to sneak amnesty for illegal immigrants on the American people.”
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do i detect a hint of rob willington hereabouts?
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why on earth would og want to dirty himself with a congress filled, apparently to the brim, with republican sneaks and democratic plotters? unless he carries out a coup, what does he hope to accomplish there? besides a nice paycheck, i mean. and an apartment on k street. and padding his pension. and kick-ass health insurance for him but not his poorest constituents… nothing i guess.
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if the good people of MA-05 vote in ogonowski, they get what they deserve.
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Jim Ogonowski has never used the word indefinitely when talking about Iraq. You and the Boston Globe have characterized his words as such but he never said them. Niki used direct quotations.
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Jim Ogonowski’s piece does not use direct quotations. It says
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Let’s see what Niki Tsongas said on those dates in the Lowell Sun:
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Unfortunately the other articles don’t show up on google but the one I did link to proves the Ogonowski assertion true. What Niki Tsongas outlined here is amnesty. Plain and simple. It allows those here illegally to stay. That’s amnesty. There is nothing intellectually dishonest about this direct mail piece. Nothing.
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Niki’s TV ad that’s another story. This piece didn’t use quotes. The Tsongas ad did.
that bit about congress sneaking around to blah blah blah. can you back that up with anything remotely factual, quote marks or no? if so, please let us know how og knows about this shadowy happening in washington, but doesn’t even know the content of current legislation.
Now was it.
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No it was after the sourced material. That is Jim Ogonowski’s take on what Niki has said.
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Congress tried to pass immigration “reform” that had amnesty as a part of the bill. Niki supports that.
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Congress tried to sneak amnesty by calling it “earned”. That is the sneaking that Ogonowski is talking about.
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This is a very effective direct mail piece. Otherwise you all wouldn’t be that up in arms about it.
at showing what kind of operation he would run should he get into office. either he’s an ass, or a dupe being led astray by an ass. either way, he’s finally shown his cards.
when the Mass Republicans did a simialar for their legislative candidates, did it?
Congress tried to pass immigration “reform” that had amnesty as a part of the bill. Niki supports that.
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St. Ronald, he of Reagan, supported an immigration reform bill in 1986 that had amnesty provisions. And he had a Republican majority in the Senate that could have blocked the bill. If what you say is true, it sounds like Tsongas is following in the footsteps of good Republicans.
To put out stuff like this.
and that they probably show that his strongest support comes from those that don’t support Niki Tsongas’ amnesty plan of “earned” citizenship. You can’t earn anything that you’ve begun to got by breaking the law.
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That’s like telling a bank robber that they can keep the heist take as long as they pay taxes on it.
because American citizenship is precisely analogous to money in a bank vault.
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That little analogy says a lot more about you guys than perhaps you meant to give away.
it shows we believe in upholding the laws of our nation David. Legal immigrants getting citizenship is a wonderful and beautiful thing. My mother did so when I was 16 years old and it was one of the proudest days of my life.
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Not following the rules, and then being put ahead of those that did follow the rules is stealing David, plain and simple.
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Equating illegal and legal immigration shows a little bit more than perhaps you were willing to reveal.
to where I “equat[ed] illegal and legal immigration,” I’d be much obliged. ‘Til then, I suggest you refrain from mischaracterizing my remarks.
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I mean, really, it’s hilarious. First, you guys call your blog “Red Mass Group,” even though the original play on words is completely lost if you substitute “Red” for “Blue.” Then you parrot my own lines back at me, even though they don’t work in reverse. Do you guys have an original thought in your heads?
The only way you can think that I was denigrating citizenship is if you believe that illegal immigrants and legal immigrants should both have a pathway to citizenship. Your statement equated the two. It was pretty obvious David.
I think the “earned pathway” approach is a reasonable and practical approach, as part of a comprehensive solution. So does President Bush, John McCain, and a slew of other GOoPers, as well as lots of Democrats. But that certainly doesn’t constitute equating “legal” and “illega” immigration.
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You’re grasping at straws. It’s what desperate people do. It must be painful watching Ogo’s once-promising campaign implode.
I don’t know if its imploding as far as polling numbers go, but I definitely feel like whoever is calling the shots needs to be bitched out a lillll bit.
An honest Republican! 😉
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Note to the humor-impaired: that little “wink” icon means “I’m just joshin’ with ya.” Don’t get your knickers in a twist.
I’ve watched this race go from one where I thought Jim could theoretically have it in the bag, but he keeps going in the wrong direction. He’s got the outsider, every-man “hey lets go grab a cold one” advantage, but he goes after issues that make me want to shove icepicks under my fingernails. We don’t live in Texas. If we lived in Texas, you could talk to me about illegals all you want and I’ll listen. No. I live in Mass. How are you going to lower my taxes? I think the Gov’t is too big, are you going to try and make it smaller? I love the Chevy Volt. Do you love the Chevy Volt? I think there needs to be more genuine faith in politicians. Are you a man of faith?
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The only detail I ever hear is about stupid illegal immigrants and I’m sick of it. I’m not worried. Seriously. How the hell can people bitch about them stealing all our wonderful benefits when we’re dropping billions of megabuxxx so Georgie can save face and never admit that Bremer and Wolfowitcz played him like a fiddle?
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The answer is it feels much better to blame some nefarious “other” than to admit “hey we screwed up here”.
…but the Republicans have lost all credibility as the “rule of law” party. Either your for enforcing all the rules, or just the politically convenient ones.
Others can be ignored by those in power if they are inconvenient. Right?
How does one go from non-partisan to right wing nut job?
False.
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People immigrate into America to work and make money. This has been shown time and time again. And where does Niki say she wants to help illegal immigrants “take advantage of our services”. Isn’t this an implicit attack on Niki’s SCHIP position – The same SCHIP that the BMG community has shown to conclusively exclude illegal immigrants?
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You say yourself that Tsongas supports an “earned path to citizenship”. That contradicts your claim about amnesty. Amnesty would mean unearned.
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And if Ogonowski doesn’t want our troops in Iraq indefinitely, what exactly is his pullout date? If he doesn’t have a pullout date, that means we can expect the day the troops come home to be sometime in the indefinite future, hence he wants our troops to be in Iraq indefinitely. Indefinitely does not mean permanently, it means that the pullout date is not as of yet defined.
the illegal immigrant home, to wait in line like the millions of legal immigrants that come to this country is amnesty in my book and in many people’s books. You may not like the terminology but it is correct.
let’s see how long we can play ping-pong
and there are several dictionary definitions in comments downthread that you will be unable to answer.
Does your book say “Grimm’s” on the cover? Because it sounds like a book of fairy tales. Not to mention, I have a book that starts out, “Dear Penthouse Forum…”. Did you know that you can get really hot college co-eds to the damnedest things in a Starbucks bathroom? Apparently, all you have to do is by them a latte. Or at least that’s what is says in my book.
I’m writing in tblade. (a latte, huh?!)
13 million at last count, right? We gonna go door to door? With weapons, no search warrants? Maybe re-enact the “tearing babies from their parents” scene from that textile plant on the south shore last year a few dozen thousand times? Yeah, sign me up, sounds like it’ll be a blast.
Let’s see now, there were what — maybe 50,000 people who weren’t able to evacuate New Orleans when Katrina was coming? Hmmm. We knew where they were, we knew they wanted to leave, but we couldn’t get them out.
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But somehow, though, 13 million folks who do not want the government to find them can be found and evicted from the country.
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Well let’s hear how — this ought to be good……
We’ll send a quarter of the treasury to BlackWater to round up all those dangerous illegals and send them home. The prospect of “bonus beatings” should ensure Ogonowski’s support.
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There where plenty of people who just could not be evacuated from New Orleans.
but people who knew that the bus yards existed, had access to them, could get to them before they were flooded, had access to bus keys and fuel, and knew where to take their bus 1) to pick up people efficiently and 2) the route to get them safely out of the city (aka not over a certain bridge into police-protected whiteland).
In addition to the driver-availability issue noted above, one wonders exactly how prudent it would be to try to drive buses through a flood. Aside from the issue of whether the buses would even start in the flood and continue operating in deep water (buses require electricity, as I’m sure you know, to operate the spark plugs), some of us have skidded on even small amounts of water.
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Have you ever tried to drive through the Storrow Drive tunnel when it was flooded?
To have only used a partial quote, foolishly thinking that people might actually scroll UP for the full context!
The comment to which I was replying states, (and I’ll type this very slowly for you):
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K a t r i n a – w a s – c o m i n g. Which means: it hadn’t yet arrived.
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One can make of the photo, and it’s obvious implications, what one will.
However, that city officials just couldn’t find the car keys (gawd, that is funny) is sheer lunacy.
…the mandatory evacuation was given 24 hours in advance of landfall. And even if evacuation was known for a week, there were still thousands of people who could not be evacuated from New Orleans. And when the people did evacuate, they were trapped with feces and dead bodies in the Super Dome and Convention Center.
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The argument that the people of New Orleans brought it upon themselves because they didn’t evacuate when warned is lunacy.
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Thanks for the slow typing, though.
….once and for all then, please provide the following:
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– A detailed plan for how the entire population of undocumented immigrants are going to be found and identified.
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– A detailed plan on how they are all going to be brought into custody, processed, detained, provided access to the courts and ultimately deported, including human resource costs, the cost of building and maintaining detention facilities, the cost of an at least 25% expansion of the federal court system and the cost of daily maintenace of several million detainees.
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– A detailed plan on how the infrastructure necessary to deport 12 million people will be developed including acquisition of vehicles and aircraft, human resources, insurance cost and fuel costs.
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– A complete economic analysis addressing increased tax burden, increased costs of goods and services, total cost of detention and deportation, etc.
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Of course you can always reference the plan of the “no amnesty” politician who has already developed the analysis necessary to implement the “Ship ’em Out Doctrine”. That may be difficult since, to my knowledge, no one (Ogo included) has.
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Until these issues are actually addressed you and everyone who agrees with you is offering nothing but pandering lip service.
if you would stop to think a moment, you might notice that the sentence in quotes begins with “He said…”. Unless og is in the habit of speaking in the 3rd person, this cannot be a quote by him, but is a sentence spoken or written about him. It is actually the latter, a quote from a globe article. ever use google?
is defined as “the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals.”
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That is simply not what the “earned path to citizenship” of the Bush/Kennedy/McCain approach is talking about. You know it, I know it, and the American people know it. (To coin a phrase.) This is a classic Republican Rove-approved tactic — use a scary code-word, even though you know it’s not applicable, because it gets people worked up. It’s oogity-boogity politics at its worst.
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And this guy says he’s not a “partisan politician.” Hah.
An “earned path to citizenship” does not equal amnesty, which in my dictionary is a general pardon. If those persons that have come into the U.S. illegally are required to pay a large fine before they would be allowed to get into and wait at the end of the “legal” immigration line, would you still call it amnesty?
if he thought it would help Ogo win this election.
First, a disclosure: I personally support amnesty rather than wasting law enforcement on rounding up productive, law abiding economic migrants.
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Wikipedia has lots on the history of the word “amnesty” see http://en.wikipedia….
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Interestingly, Amnesty was applicable to nonviolent persons who were guilty of the wrong politics.
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Frankly, I consider the round up of economic migrants, and the cost of incarcerating them a waste of my tax dollars.
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as for nonlaw abiding folk, as strange as it may seem to you “EaboGuy – I believe in due process, and “innocent until proven guilty” – old fashioned to be sure, but once upon a time most folk who called themselves conservatives also believed in the Bill of Rights, and the concept of due process.
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Anyway, thanks to your vitriol, I have donated to Nikki’s campaign and am putting some time into it – which is a bother as I have a local race and a demanding work life – not to mention a family.
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I loathe the politics of fear and division, frankly.
but funny. seriously, keep this stuff up. I’m enjoying it.
As ridiculous as this fear-baiting can be, it sometimes works. (Against expectations, Connolly beat Martinez in the general.)
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That’s why it’s important to stay on message and not get distracted by their over the top tactics.
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– Niki Tsongas will vote to provide health insurance to needy kids.
– Niki Tsongas will vote to bring our troops home.
– Niki Tsongas will NOT cater to the Bush party line.
– Niki Tsongas will represent the needs and concerns of all the people of the 5th district.
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That’s the message voters need to know.
That (“Niki Tsongas’s…”) is the proper way to handle a possessive with a singular noun that ends in “s”.
Chicago says no apostrophe es for es words of Greek origin.
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I don’t remember what AP says, probably use the apostrophe
is a commonly used standard, but it is not the standard. There is no absolute standard, only ever-evolving conventions (which often conflict) and styles. We don’t have an Academy for the Delineation of the English Language as some other countries have for their languages. Thus, raj and the manual you cite are both correct.
You can inject moral relativism even into a debate about punctuation!
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🙂
that was my point–that one influential, even preeminent, stylebook supports the use that was being criticized. Thus the criticism was not only awfully picky, but also unjustified.
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(By the way, Chicago also suggests that in most cases one not use “[sic]” to point out minor errors–rather, just fix the error when you quote the source. Don’t sweat the small stuff, in other words.)
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I don’t know how Laurel read that as saying that no other style could be acceptable. I’m not a usage snob, was working recently for someone who uses AP and was often corrected with good cheer.
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Raj has never heard of Chicago (fair enough), but finds several sources on the internet, some of which would use the apostrophe and some of which would not.
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Although I use the current (15th) edition of CMS I realize that my brain is still mostly stuck in the 13th of my misspent youth and the standard might have changed. I haven’t got the book in hand today to check. So maybe CMD is right about CMS and I should not have started this tangent.
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Relativistic enough for ya?
sorry for my apparent misreading of your post!
I will accept the relativism part of the accolade, but not the moral. Our collective usage(s) of English are what they are. That;s just simple observation, not moral dictum. If I wanted to get moral about it, I would have said something like “The King James Bible is The Standard, and to the extent you stray from the florid framework set therein, you sin against god.” 😀
Did I just read you to reject the term “moral” because the picayune rules of punctuation raise no moral issues, and then implicitly acknowlegde that the only way to inject morality into this otherwise amoral discussion would be to get religion?
was take my example and extrapolate from it in a wacky direction. but today is
slaughter the locals and plunder their richescolumbus day, so have at it (just don’t expect me to agree with it). 😀…but if you do a google search using terms “possessive singular noun ending in “s,” you would find grammar along the lines of this, this and this all of which agree with me, with minor exceptions regarding names of people from antiquity.
has your back on this, at least for proper names ending in “s”. I’m going to disagree with Trickle Up: The “Greek name” rule is only for names ending in “eez” (e.g., Socrates) that sound awkward with another “s” on the end.
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CMS is a pretty good, and generally credible, authority on this kind of stuff.
It’s not a pardon. It’s a different sentencing.
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Some kid gets caught writing graffiti and the judge gives him a choice of 15 days in jail or 50 hours of community service. He chooses the service. Is that amnesty?
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No. It’s punishment, rehabilitation, and a path to make the wrongs right. The immigration reform is the same strategy. It’s not a pardon.
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To call it amnesty is dishonest, and it always has been. Saying it’s true over and over again doesn’t make it so, and you EaBoClipper have developed a consistent record of proclaiming truth that simply isn’t.
In order for your analogy to function, there has to be some reward at the end– the thing “earned.”
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So, the kid caught doing graffti gets his 50 hours of community service, and when that service is completed, he gets $5000 cash. On the other hand, the kid who does not vandalize someone else’s property gets no cash.
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The incentive then would therefore be to go ahead and vandalize the property, do the community service, and collect the cash. The actual law abiding non-vandal is a sucker. The policy directly encorages vandalism.
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Likewise, if a person who becomes a resident of the United States by evading immigtation laws is able to “earn” citizenship before someone who, streting at the same time, does not attempt to evade immigration laws, the incentive is to simply evade the immigration law, and go “earn” your citizenship.
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These supposedly “moderate” proposals that permit “earned” citizenship are really no more than an indirect way of saying “We support increased illegal immigration.”
….the Congress in their wisdom could simply drop in a nifty little provision like – In order to participate in the aforementioned program prospective applicants must have entered the borders of the United States of America on or before December 31, 2007. All those who entered as of 00:00:01 on January 1, 2008 will be deemed ineligible. The following may be accepted as proof of date of entrance:…….
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Problem solved. No more incentive to continue to enter without authorization.
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So now a better correlation to the graffitti example in terms of the thing earned would be an expunged criminal record after staying free from criminal trouble for a certain period, certainly not 5,000.00 cash. That is hardly an incentive to commit the crime in the first place as there would be no incentive to enter the coutry illegally with the above provision added.
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The deadline is a simple incentive to maximize illegalm immigration in the short term, and does nothing to control illegalm immigration in the long term. Indeed, I suspect that it would encourage more illegal immigtaion even after the deadline, because people will hop for a new deadline. Then, after awhile, we’ll hear again how it is a human rights abuse that all of our illegal residents aren’t legitimized, and around we will go again.
….to the extent that you have because I never said the deadline would provide any substative dis-incentive to illegal immigration, just that it would prevent a further incentive like the one you described. And as far as creating a “rush to the border” window, well my example was purely argumentative of course, the congress in their wisdom could back-date the cut-off to the bill’s filing date, no window, no problem.
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As far as encouraging more immigration in terms of providing hope for a similar dead-line in the future, I would love to see some evidence that the 12 Mil. here today are here because they loved Reagan’s amnesty so much. Of course you are not likely to find that since the average person crossing the border over the past 15 to 20 years probably (in my opinion)had no idea it ever even happened or even if they did were acting on immediate exegencies and could have cared either way what the future held vis a vis another similar action in the future.
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And aren’t we supposed to straighten out the border situation in the first place? If you really think that is possible, incentive or not they are not going to get in, so no harm, no foul. Unless of course you don’t actually believe the borders can be sealed????
Thanks for the discussion. I guess we have at least narrowed the point of disagreement, if nothing else.
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You say that “earned citizenship” with a deadline is no incentive to future illegal immigration, and I think that it almost certainly will.
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Happy Columbus Day.
That Republicans are continuing to go down the Kerry Healey/Karl Rove playbook that just doesn’t work. Rove played a great first half, but the greatest minds alter strategy in the second half, if the same things aren’t working anymore. Telling everyone that the brown people are coming to get them, as well as the gays, just isn’t going to win many elections (but, thankfully, could alienate potential republican hispanic voters for the next few generations).
I would have thought that Ogonowski’s approach to immigration would have been a bit more nuanced than Rush Limbaugh’s. As a farmer, Ogonowski should know that getting enough immigrant workers is a major issue in his industry (dare I call it his field?). An article in August 11, 2007’s New York Times described major layoffs in the heart of the harvest season, due to Bush administration crackdowns on immigrants (legal and illegal) commenced to appease the hard right conservatives. One small farmer who runs a dairy and vegetable farm in upstate New York was quoted as saying the measures were “not just painful, this is death to the American farmer.” (Article found at MIRA). The farmer predicted her cows would die from lack of milking if local farmers had to fire immigrant workers.
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Although we tend to think of MA-05 in terms of its urban areas, the district still has farms and orchards that rely heavily on seasonal immigrant labor. These are not necessarily migrant workers, but people who have come for years to work the same fields and trees. At the orchard where I pick my own apples each fall, I noticed that the crew who come each spring from Jamaica are not here this year. Over the last several weeks, the apple picking crews haven’t been the regulars, but have instead been inmates from one of our local jails, working under the supervision of guards (our tax dollars at work, I presume). The immigrant story is far more complex than talk radio would have it.
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So even though Ogonowski’s oogity boogity strategy is the centerpiece of his campaign, it’s a seriously flawed strategy. The crops need to be picked and the cows need to be milked. I’m not convinced that policies making it harder for seasonal immigrant workers to be in the US are productive for the district or for the country. I wish there were some way to overcome the sound bite level of discourse on this issue.
His farm is a whopping 33 acres. Not even big enough to have a “back 40.” Back home we’d call it a hobby farm.
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By comparison, a friend’s dairy farm is 500 acres. He calls 33 acres “a nice tax write off.”
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Of course, as you point out, labor issues are even bigger on a small farm. Ogo should know better.
And by looking at their web page they seem to be on your side.
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That is what the bill does and that is amnesty.
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They sell stuff. They’re a business. Who cares whether they call something that’s not amnesty “amnesty” or not.
…dedicated to selling gullible people materials the can get through the government for free, don’t you?
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Come on? $80 bucks for this shite?
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http://www.usimmigra…
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Compared to the government’s site:
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http://www.uscis.gov…
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The site that you cite is a scam.
“I believe that illegal immigrants who have roots in our country and want to stay should have to pay a meaningful penalty for breaking the law to pay their taxes to learn English and to work in a job for a number of years. People who meet these conditions should be able to apply for citizenship but approval would not be automatic, and they will have to wait in line behind those who played by the rules and followed the law. What I have just described is not amnesty it is a way for those who have broken the law to pay their debt to society, and demonstrate the character that makes a good citizen.” -George W. Bush
I guess not.
So, the correct understanding is that Ogonowski proudly stands to the right of George W. Bush?
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And you’ll be sending that mailer when?
No one has ever claimed that on the immigration issue Ogo and Bush are in “lockstep.” They are on Iraq; they’re not on this. Because Bush is actually right on immigration. A stopped clock, and all that.
sounds good to me. make them stay and pay up the taxes they owe. just rounding them up and giving them free airfare home sure sounds like welfare to me. not to mention being a crime enabler. whoever heard of giving criminals a taxi ride home before they even pay bail? Ogo’s plan doesn’t sound anything like law and order to me. it sounds like welfare and commission.
make them stay and pay up the taxes they owe
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An employer is, through withholding, jointly and severally liable for tax payments. If the employer did not withhold and remit the required tax payments to the IRS, the IRS can levy against the employer for not doing so.
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It would be interesting if the IRS were to go against the employers for back taxes.
Proves you don’t know Jim Ogonowski or his families’ commitment to immigrants. For years Jim’s family starting with his brother John has taught legal Southeast Asian immigrants how to farm in New England on land that they own. After the tragic events of 9/11 John was honored for this service with the creation of the “John Ogonowski Farmer to Farmer Act” which established a Peace Corps type program where American Farmers travel to other countries to teach them about farming.
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In the You Tube clip I am posting below, Jim talks with Dennis Ready, a Democrat from Chelmsford, about his immigration stance. A stance Dennis seems to be in agreement with. During the interview Jim talks about his family and how his uncles had to wait ten and fifteen years to immigrate to the United States legally.
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Jim Ogonowski is not against immigration or the “brown” people as sabutai likes to call them. Jim Ogonowski is for upholding the law and sovreignty of the United States. You see as an Air Force officer he took an oath to “protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” The same oath he will be taking later this month. He obviously believes in the oath and takes it seriously.
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If that’s true, perhaps that’s because whoever is crafting his message sucks at their job.
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So when should we expect the mailer showing Jim hand-in-hand with East Asian immigrant farmers to be sent?
Know this commitment. It has been written about for the past 10 years in the local papers. More importantly the Southeast Asian community knows the families’ and Jim’s commitment.
when the votes for the Acre and the Highlands are added up.. you a gambling man? 🙂
then what is Ogo’s workable, practical proposal to deal with immigration? Everybody knows that we cannot deport 12 million people. It simply makes no sense — among other things, it would cost millions and millions of dollars that would be far, far better spent on something else. The vast majority of those 12 million people are no threat — they are, to the contrary, here to work. Why not spend the money on, say, catching actual criminals?
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If Ogo has a plan on immigration, let’s hear it. All I’ve heard from him so far is “amnesty bad, fence good.” That’s not a plan. It’s a Rovian talking point.
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Here’s some reading material for you, by the way. This guy (disclosure: a former student of my father) came into the US from Mexico as an illegal migrant worker. He is now — literally — a brain surgeon. He is saving American lives every day.
This is racist.
That’s an insult.
This is outrageous!
That’s unprecedented!
Tsongas’ campaign used a photo from a memorial service!
Tsongas didn’t use his name in a debate!
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If Ogonowski and his team are so easily troubled by the ups and downs of a campaign, if it’s so untoward to decode his winks and nudges, he would never survive the rough and tumble of life as a freshman minority Congressman. If not using someone’s name is such a grave insult, how will he ever recover from an Osama bin Laden video? Half of his staff will have ulcers within the first week. For the sake of the health of the candidate and all those around him, he needs to be kept away from such hard work.
I always find this “insider” attack kind of funny. Apart from the fact that it is a bit of a stretch to all Tsongas an insider, if being a “Washington insider” is so bad, then why is Ogo running to become one?
… the have to get people mad at something to have a chance. This isn’t just a legality/illegality issue because there are so many other issues that have so much more lasting impact on us. They pick this issue because appealing to xenophobia is a great way to energize authoritarian followers, who are among the most loyal and motivated constituencies you can garner. They pick the legal/illegal framework so as to make things appear as black and white as they can, thus providing a framework for people to feel OK about their irrational fear and justified that they are not, in fact, being xenophobic.
… from team4437. Does that mean I’ve hit the bigtime?
If you find yourself intellectually outmatched on the substance, abuse the ratings system!
… thinking I was special 😉
So Ogo’s gone and pulled a Healey. Two cheers for evil stupid people.
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Seriously, why do they do this dumb stuff?
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Did some RNC twonkie tell them this was a good idea?
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Is it just gross miscalculation, or is there really some dark fetishistic attraction to this kind of message?
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The phrase “to jump the shark” means, roughly, “to enter irreversibly into the realm of self parody.” Like Kerry Healey, Ogonowski has done a triple lutz over Shamu the Killer Whale while wearing a KKK hood.
How sad is it that a member of a family that lost an outstanding individual and community leader to a terrible act of terror in 9/11 feels compelled to use that platform to divide people just to win an election. Tactics of fear, fanatacism and propoganda are behaviors we should be condemning in America. Lowell has a largely positive history of welcoming immigrants – they built this city – rather than condemning them. Yes, illegal immigration is an issue and needs to be dealt with, but it need not be the stalking horse for racism and hate. This ugly rhetoric is why Washington can’t come together for solutions. I thought that was the point of Jim’s campaign – to avoid partisanship. How about avoiding hostility and hate?
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I was struck by the comment Mr. Ogonowski made in the NECN debate, that he wouldn’t hire someone on his family’s farm who couldn’t speak English.
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First, Jim’s brother reached out to Cambodian immigrants to give them land to farm in Dracut because he was compassionate and interested in human beings. He never administered a language or litmus test as far as I’ve heard. Would Jim have kicked them off his brother’s land if they simply couldn’t speak English?
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Second, my grandfather emigrated from Russia, escaping discrimination and attempts to force him into the army. He was a housepainter who spoke broken English and was too embarrassed to take the lessons that would have allowed him to read the language. That did’t make him a bad person, but it did limit his ability to support his family. Eventually, both of his daughters became teachers. My Mom taught English for 30 years.
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Mr. Ogonowski has a right to take any position he wants on immigration or any other subject. The hysteria, divisiveness and slurs, however, need not be part of this Congressional debate.
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Re: EO, instead of rationalizing that 1 + 1 = 3, you might want to revisit your candidate’s rhetoric and counsel a little dignity for the last week. You never know. It might even be reciprocated.