Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

A question to the experts – how many delegates does Massachusetts get, and:

By

I have the following questions, I think I know, but collectively, this blog knows way more than I do:

1.  How many delegates are awarded to the Democratic Convention as a result of our February 5, 2008 primary?

2.  Are the delegates awarded “proportionately” to the vote, as opposed to “winner take all”?

3.  Are the delegates “pledged delegates” or free delegates?

I would love concrete information and links to answer what I know are basic questions.  My understanding is that Massachusetts is a “proportional award” state, not a “winner take all state” – but I would love to hear back as to whether this is correct.

Also, I admit I am having trouble making sense of the relationship between the delegate-to-the-National Convention selection process and the primary election itself on the State Democratic Party Website, see: http://www.massdems.org/index2…

I note that the Massachusetts Democratic Party has reorganized its web site.  Now, if I could only make sense of it!

 

Please share widely!
fb-share-icon
Tweet
0

Comments

  1. as to which I’m not all that confident.

    <

    p>1. We have 93 delegates to give on primary day.
    2. It’s proportional, though I’m not sure exactly how the proportion works.  (I believe that most if not all Dem primaries are proportional, and most GOP are winner take all.  I could be wrong about that.)
    3. I think they’re pledged, but I’m really not sure.

    <

    p>It’s really hard to find solid info about this stuff.  If anyone has a good source, please let us know!

  2. But read the fine print.  Disclaimer, this is not a substitute for reading the Delegate Selection Plan.  I do the best I can, so if I missed something, I’m sure someone will jump in. Howard is always watching out for me! HINT: when navigating the new site, always look on the right panel on the home page.  I hope my summary helps.  

    <

    p>Massachusetts has a total of 121 delegates and 16 alternates.  The results are proportional, but candidates must reach the 15% threshold.

    <

    p>BASED ON PRIMARY VOTE
    61 delegates and 10 alternates will be elected at Congressional District caucuses.   These delegates are pledged.  They are proportional based on the results of the primary in the respective Congressional District.

    <

    p>12 PLEO (Pledged Party Leader and Elected Official) Delegates. They are proportional based on the results statewide. They are elected by the DSC.

    <

    p>20 At-Large Delegates and 6 At-Large Alternates.  They are proportional based on the results statewide.  They are elected by the DSC.

    <

    p>UNPLEDGED
    26 unpledged Party Leader and Elected Official Delegates.  They are proportional based on the results statewide.
       10 DNC Members
       13 US Senators and Members of Congress and Governor
       3 Distinguished Party Leaders

    <

    p>2 Unpledged at-large delegates

    <

    p>Kate

    • The sentence “They are proportional based on the results statewide.” should not have been included in my description of unpledged delegates.  I missed it as I was editing my answer.  Still waiting for the day when we can edit comments.  

      <

      p>Thanks John for your kind words.    

    • You list 13 delegates- US Senators, US House members, and Governor…then you say 3 additional delegates for party leaders…are those 3 delegates the Lt. Governor, Speaker and Senate President?? I am assuming so but, you were not specific.

      • If the answer had been obvious, I would have explained in my first thread.  I figured that I had to live up to John’s expectations, so this is what it looks like.

        <

        p>This is what the Mass Delegate Selection plan says.  

        (4) “Distinguished Party Leader” delegates who legally reside in the state (3); (Rule 9.A.(5), Call I.K., and Reg. 4.13.)

         

        <

        p>Now Rule 9.A(5) says

        <

        p>

        5. All former Democratic Presidents, all former Democratic Vice Presidents, all former Democratic Leaders of the U.S. Senate, all former Democratic Speakers of the U.S. House of Representatives and Democratic Minority Leaders, as applicable, and all former Chairs of the Democratic National Committee.

        <

        p>Call I.K says

        <

        p>

        K. Members of the Democratic National Committee and delegates selected pursuant to paragraphs G, H and I will be ineligible to serve as delegates under any other category and may hold no more than one (1) vote. Democratic Governors, Democratic Members of the United States House of Representatives and Democratic United States Senators who are members of the Democratic National Committee shall serve as delegates by virtue of their membership on the National Committee.

        <

        p>Reg. 4.13 says

        <

        p>

        (REG. 4.13. RULE 9.A.
        A. For the purposes of Rule 9.A., the State Democratic Chair and the next highest ranking officer of the opposite sex holding office on the day that the 2008 National Convention convenes shall be included in the state’s delegation.
        B. For purposes of Rule 9.A., the “individuals recognized as members of the DNC” includes each voting member of the Democratic National Committee who is registered to vote and legally resides (“legal residence”) in the respective state and holds such office on the day the 2008 Convention convenes, regardless of the manner of his or her selection.
        C. For the purposes of Rule 9.A.(1), the state’s delegation shall include those members of the Democratic National Committee apportioned to the state by the Charter, and certified to the Secretary by the State Democratic Chair, and whose terms commenced on the day after the 2004 National Convention adjourned. In the event a member has died, resigned or otherwise been replaced, the person who has been selected to serve the remainder of the member’s term shall be included. Nothing in this Regulation shall be interpreted to permit any person to be included in a state’s delegation, pursuant to Rule 9.A.(1), who has not been selected in accordance with the requirements of the Charter and Bylaws of the Democratic Party.
        D. For the purposes of Rule 9.A.(5), the term “former Chairpersons of the Democratic National Committee” includes National Chairpersons and General Chairpersons.

        <

        p>Aren’t you glad you asked?

        • it may be more than I needed to know…only wanted to know if the Lt Gov., MA Speaker and MA Senate Pres. would be delegates to the DN Conv….

          <

          p>Guess they will have to get elected in their home CDs.  

          • From my understanding of the rule, the three positions are not automatic.

            <

            p>The rules for PLEO’s give first preference to state wide elected officials and large city mayors.  I expect if LG Tim Murray would like to go, he will go in that category.  

          • They’ll be delegates. Can you imagine a scenario in which any of them enter a caucus as candidates for a delegate spot and NOT get elected?

            <

            p>And, I know, it is a secret ballot.

            • Argyle,

              <

              p>Actually it is not a secret ballot.  According to the Delegate Selection Plan, “All ballots shall be written and signed.”  That is from the section on Congressional District Caucuses.  DSC votes in a situation like this are always written and signed.

              <

              p>Kate

      • The 26 (which includes the three) are specific individuals: the Senators, the Congressmen, the DNC members get to 23. Last time, the three were Steve Grossman, Paul Kirk, and Debra DeLee (the first two were past DNC treasurer and chair, respectively).

        <

        p>The two unpledged addons were Joe DeNucci and Martha Coakely last time. Tim Cahill, Bill Galvin, Tom Reilly, Tom Menino, Tim Murray, and Bob Travaglini were all elected under the PLEO category last time.

        <

        p>

        • Your phrasing Steve Grossman, Paul Kirk, and Debra DeLee (the first two were past DNC treasurer and chair, respectively) is somewhat misleading. I don’t know if Grossman was treasurer, but he certainly was chair. All three of them were chairs at one point or other (’97-’99, ’85-’89 and ’94-’95, respectively).

  3. The Massachusetts Delegate Selection Plan can be found on the Mass Dems web site here.  It details the specifics about the delegates and how they are selected.  It includes a chart on page 7 that shows how 61 delegates and 10 alternates are selected in Congressional District caucuses.  These delegates and alternates will be pledged according to the vote of each congressional district on Feb 5th.

    <

    p>Other categories of delegates, how they are selected and whether they are pledged is also included in the Plan.

    <

    p>John Walsh
    Chair
    Massachusetts Democratic Party

    • Between you and Kate, I am beginning to get a handle on what is a complicated process with built in checks and balances.  

  4. Each vote in the primary gets counted twice, in effect, once statewide, and once in the congressional district. This gives us effectively 11 sets of results, one for the statewide, and one for each of the 10 CDs.

    <

    p>In each set of results, the process is the same. Any candidate who gets less than 15% of the vote total is excluded, and then the percentages are recalculated from the remaining candidates. So if the results are 50% for A, 30% for B, 10% for C, and 10% for D, the last two would be excluded and the revised results would be 62.5% for A and 37.5% for B.

    <

    p>In each of the CDs, the percentages are then multiplied by the number of delegates (6 in most cases), which would give us 3.75 and 2.25 in our example. The whole number of delegates (3 and 2) are then allocated, and the final delegate goes to the A, since the 0.75 fraction is greater than the 0.25 fraction.

    <

    p>These delegates will be elected in separate meetings for each candidate in each congressional district.

    <

    p>Statewide the process is the same, except that there are two delegate pools, one for the 20 at-large and one for the 12 party leader and elected official spots (PLEOs). The statewide results are applied separately to 20 and 12 to get the allocations by candidate.

    <

    p>These delegates will be elected by the state committee.

    <

    p>All of the above delegates are pledged to vote for their candidate on the first ballot.

    <

    p>In addition, as mentioned above, there are the 26 unpledged “superdelegates,” who have a spot automatically, and can vote for anyone, as well as the small group of unpledged superdelegates who will be elected by the DSC.

    • …. the Democratic parties rules are such that popular vote does not have a 100% say in who are  delegates to  the National convention? If that is so ( and it appears it is) then  how does that square with this from the constitution

      <

      p>

      Section 4 – Elections, Meetings
      The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of Chusing Senators.

      Amendment 12 – Choosing the President, Vice-President. Ratified 6/15/1804. The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

      Amendment 17 – Senators Elected by Popular Vote. Ratified 4/8/1913. History
      The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people.

      <

      p>Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t read in any of this guidance from our founding fathers and the amendments to that guidance (even with the archaic rules of the electoral college) that popular vote is ignored if under 15% is received or that a party committee (parties being something that also has no mention in the constitution) has the right to appoint delegates not beholding to the wishes of the voters.

      • We’re not electing senators, representatives, presidents, or vice presidents.

        <

        p>We’re electing a candidate for those positions.  What you’ve quoted above simply doesn’t apply for primaries.

        <

        p>I don’t like the MA system — far too much in the hands of the party insiders and not enough in the hands of primary voters — but the primary system isn’t democracy.

        • And it is new to have folk like us paying attention, analyzing the process for delegate selection, and participating, correct?

        • ….senators, representatives, presidents, or vice presidents primary or no, party affiliation or no does not trace back to the constitution then I am 100% in agreement with you.

          <

          p>

          but the primary system isn’t democracy

          <

          p>eeuuuuuggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!  

          • Imagine saying: you can’t take part in this election because you’re a Republican.  That’d be awfully totalitarian.

            <

            p>But that’s exactly what we do for primaries and caucuses in nearly every state.  It’s not a democracy.  It’s an organized way for a group of people to decide who they’ll support in the election for POTUS [or whatever].

            <

            p>The Constitution offers absolutely no guidance on how organized groups of like-minded individuals ought to collectively decide whom to support for elected office, nor does the concept of democracy.

            • …Something about of the People, by the People, for the People. Not of the party….. You get the Idea.  From hanging chads to caucus’s to weird party rules the revelations about how we elect our Chief executive come off more like a satire for The Daily show than a sensible and fair process. (Wait a minute if it was sensible and fair then there would be no Daily Show)

              <

              p>My comment stands

              <

              p>Eeerrrruuggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Thanks for the shoutout, Kate, couple of things I would add:

      <

      p>The example of the 50-30% spread would lead to a 4-2 delegate split, but one can win the district by a closer margin, say 46-42 and get just an even split.

      <

      p>The fact that delegates will be split up, probably between the 2 leading candidates (with respect to Sen. Edwards, if he’s around on 2/5, it probably be with a focus on other states), will mean that there will be 2-4 delegates per candidate per district, as opposed to many years in Mass where slates could be assembled of 6 delegates, giving representation to multiple communities and constituencies.  Now, if the 8th CD splits evenly, each candidate will have 3 delegates, 2 of one gender, 1 of another, and a lot of folks to please.

      <

      p>H.

    • If Candidate A gets 50 percent, Candidate B gets 30 percent, and Candidate candidate C gets 16% and DEF together get 4%…what then?

      <

      p>Also, if Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama both his the convention with less than a majority, and Edwards still has a “chunk” this COULD be a very interesting convention.

      • We’d throw away the 4% and recalculate the other three to something like 52%, 31.2%, and 16.8%.

        <

        p>Then those percentages would be applied to the available delegates, so you’d get (for six seats) about 3.12, 1.87, and 1.01. In this case, you’d get a 3-2-1 split.

        <

        p>One odd thing about the 15% rule is that anyone with 15% gets at least one delegate, unless there aren’t enough delegates to go around (if there are two spots, the top two finishers get the two spots and the third place finisher gets left out).

    • PatrickA: you said the delegates will be elected at SEPARATE MEETINGS for each candidate within the CD…So if in the 4th CD, Clinton gets 10 delegates and obama gets 4 delegates, there will be a Clinton Caucus and a separate Obama caucus at another location to determine who will be their delegates?

      • My understanding is that all CD caucuses for all candidates will be Saturday April 5, 2008 at 1:00 PM sharp.  Holding them all at the same time forces caucus-goers to declare for one candidate for POTUS and prevents anybody from attending more than one caucus.

      • Four years ago, the 7th CD had one Edwards delegate and all of the rest were Kerry delegates. There were several hundred people at Peabody High School for the Kerry caucus, while the Edwards caucus was held in Rockport (in large part because the campaign wanted a particular supporter as delegate, and she lived in Rockport).

        <

        p>You have to sign up to run for delegate, and then the campaigns can cut down the list arbitrarily, as long as there are at least three times as many candidates as spots.

        • two of those three candidates are placeholders, so the campaign can claim to list a sufficient number of candidates for the caucus.

          • Striking of candidates is very reasonable.  Candidates want to have their supporters go to the convention.  If striking were not part of the process, supporters of the presumptive nominee would typically be able to get elected delegate for a candidate who is no longer viable.  I think back to 2000 when by the time the caucuses came along, it was clear that Al Gore was going to be the nominee.  Without striking, it would have been easy for an Al Gore supporter to be a Bill Bradley delegate.  

            • Just pointing out that it’s SOP. Like you said, candidates want their people going.

              <

              p>I’ve done delegate tracking, I know (more or less) the drill.

              • I really feel like I am learning a great deal of the actual process from this thread, and appreciate everyone who has contributed.

                <

                p>Along those lines, is there a link where the CDs are posting the date, time, and place of their caucuses?

                • I don’t expect that anything will be scheduled until after the primary.  It is the campaigns that schedule them. The Party will have the information.  I’ll try to get them all, or at least the link, in the DDemDispatch.

                  <

                  p>Kate

                • What a tough, tight, exciting time the next couple of weeks will be – but the important thing to remember is that we are ALL Democrats, and that sometimes, friends just have to agree to disagree – but work together later on – despite the fact that all our candidates cannot win all of the time.

Archives