Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

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Anyone watching the debate?  I got tired — too much yelling.

I still don’t know who the hell I’m voting for.

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  2. My wife turned to me during the Clinton-Obama exchange and said “this is why I hate politics.”

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    p>It got nasty and I thought Wolf Blitzer did a bad job reigning them in.

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    p>Overall I thought Hillary was embarassing.  I thought Obama did fairly well, but took the bait from Hillary too often.  Edwards, as I’m sure was his plan, came out of it relatively unscathed, appealing to people who might be getting tired of the Obama-Clinton back-and-forth.

  4. I don’t have cable at home. Totally rabbit-ears. So, perhaps for exactly this reason, when I am near a TV with cable, I check out these outlets that are supposed to have such influence and power.

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    p>Today I watched some CNN and Fox political coverage. Unbelievable. CNN’s “reporters”, in Columbia SC and Jacksonville FL respectively, talking sounded like that Miss America contestant trying lamely to bluff her way through a question she had absolutely no idea about. They sounded totally unprepared, and in any event had no real idea about what actually mattered. They didn’t even sound like they’d read the latest polling, which is by far the most superficial way to report. Didn’t even have that going on. “Well, Giuliani’s hoping for a big comeback in Florida wah wah wah wah wah”

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    p>And Fox News, of course, always hires the most abrasive yahoos imaginable to represent the Dems. They know what they’re doing.

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    p>I’m watching the debate on line; I will say that I have a greater degree of comfort with any of these candidates than with the front-runners in 2004. They’re all good, smart, compelling and well-spoken. We really have come a long way, and I’m convinced it’s because the party rank-and-file, the ordinary folks, the garden-variety liberals, demanded it.

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    p>They are all smart to say we need a McCain strategy; btw, we also need a “Freedom’s Watch” strategy.

    • More often than not I agree with you but holy cow – “all good, smart, compelling and well-spoken“?  Well spoken? They (Clinton & Obama) were dancing with knives, stabbing each other into a bloody mess in front of the cameras for all the potential voters to see.

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      p>As far as I could see from the debate we have not “come a long way,” in fact, we’ve come full circle – to the circular firing line.

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      p>Last night did more for the GOP candidates than anything the GOP could’ve done themselves. This is EXACTLY what I have been afraid of.

  5. My kids were bickering at the same time Barack and Hillary were going at it.  I said, “If you don’t stop it, I’m not voting for either one of you.” It seemed to work.  With my kids, I mean. Have to remember that one.

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    p>Seriously, I said to my wife at that point that if I had to vote right then, I’d go for Edwards.

    • Edwards won tonight.  He made his points and was also able to point out differences with other candidates respectfully (unlike the other two).

  6. on the spiritual awakening of a comatose population has taken priority.  You might yell, yet my worldview requires extensive spiritual cleansing techniques after exposure to 2 minutes of most of the 300 English speaking TV channels, so don’t feel bad.  Only Animal Planet, Discovery Channel or the History Channel don’t offend me.

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    p>My vote is positively Ron Paul as is my immediate reporting to every blog I am registered on that my Ron Paul vote was indeed not logged as a Ron Paul vote by Diebold Incorporated.  Well that is IF I still have internet by that date.

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    p>Why Ron Paul you might ask, as he stands for all things contrary to the progressive agenda.  Yes, it is a protest vote, a protest against the mediocrity of the controlled Pravda press,the marketing efforts of K-street, the think tanks which dictate public policy in secret for the benefit of corporate profits.  

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    p>Yes I realize that November will present us with a “choice” between McCain and Hillary but by then I hope my Apocalyptic survivalist plans might be further advanced than they are now.

  7. …from all the descriptions it looks like an utter waste of time.  Seriously, the only point of having debates at this stage is to give candidates an opportunity to embarrass themselves in front of lazy citizens just now checking in.

      • No need to get surly.  We both know I’m talking about folks in SC who are going to base their vote on the spectacle tonight.  What are they saying tonight in policy terms that they haven’t been saying for months?  

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        p>Was this a deep policy discussion such as the one that Gwen Ifill managed, or another exchange dominated by histronics and campaign positioning?

        • Well, I suppose I’m surly all over the thread tonight, so don’t take it personal-like.

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          p>I think it’s reasonable to assume that many, many people have not been paying attention to the degree that we junkies have done. Also, I think it’s reasonable to assume that many folks just haven’t been able to make up their minds yet, and are waiting for that “aha” moment where it all becomes clear for them. Why imagine them to be ignorant, slack-jawed yokels?

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          p>As I’ve said, to some extent you can read between the lines and find the content you want; but also, I didn’t find the “nasty” exchanges to be particularly out of bounds.

  8. I’m not hearing any actual yelling. The candidates are being emphatic. They ought to be emphatic. Hell, maybe they ought to yell. From what I’m hearing, there’s plenty substantive to chew on in this debate — maybe you have to read between the lines sometimes, but it’s there.

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    p>Folks, the yelling and disagreement is politics; politics is democracy. Maybe you find it substantive and useful; maybe you think it’s shrill and annoying. But for crying out loud, let’s just grow up and get used to it. This is the game, man — high stakes!

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    p>Love it. It’s ours.

    • Obama: “Because while I was working on those streets watching those folks see their jobs shift overseas, you were a corporate lawyer sitting on the board at Wal-Mart.”

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      p>

      Clinton: “I was fighting against those ideas when you were practicing law and representing your contributor, Resco, in his slum landlord business in inner city Chicago.”

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      p>To both of them: these zingers aren’t helping your cause. Be emphatic as Charley says, but keep it pertinent.

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      p>What’s next, accusations of leaving the toilet seat up and not shaving legs?

      • If you’re a certain Governor campaigning for Obama in South Carolina and other locales …. The people of Mass. didn’t have much quibble w/Deval’s background and I doubt that most Americans will quibble with HRC being on the Walmart board, or at least, consider it a major factor in their vote.

      • Did Edwards somehow misbehave tonight? I think he’s been the most polite of any of the top three in the debates.

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        p>I didn’t hear anything that was that bad tonight, including the exchange above. Into the fray! Let’s hear about Hillary and Wal-Mart:
        http://www.commondreams.org/he…

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        p>Let’s hear about Obama’s political patron, the slumlord Rezko:
        http://www.suntimes.com/news/m…

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        p>I mean, come on — what are we, 5-year-olds that can’t stand to hear this stuff? Out with it.

        • had a good night (at least in the hour that I watched).  His strategy clearly was to appear to be the adult in the room, and it worked pretty well.  His rhetoric (again in the hour that I watched) was noticeably toned-down from what we’ve heard from him on other occasions.

          • this isn’t a courtroom, y’know, not real presidential ..

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            p>I thought the two lead candidates were much better in the second segment.

            • But you know what keeps me from giving the night to Edwards?  When he started in on Barack about his “present” votes, lecturing him about the need to make hard choices and all that…when we know Edwards was bullied into the authorization of force vote.  Come on.

  9. I actually found Obama to be pretty rude tonite.

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    p>Especially that comment about how for the first time, America has the choice between “A woman, an African-American, and, John” SO RUDE!

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    p>I also found a lot of his answers to be arrogant.

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    p>Hillary was clearly on track and answered all she was asked and then some. The bickering was great in my opinion! An honest debate for once!

  10. TPMEC points to an interesting moment in the debate tonight:

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    p>

    For now, check out this great line from Obama on getting double-teamed by Hillary and Bill:

    “I can’t tell who I’m running against at times.”

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    p>”Great line”?  Meh — I was watching at that point, and I didn’t think it was so “great.”  But what Hillary really should have done — and I think she’d have gotten a lot of mileage out of it — was turned to face him head-on, looked him dead in the eye, and said something like, “you can’t tell who you’re running against, Barack?  Well let me make it crystal clear for you then.  You’re running against me, and don’t you ever forget it.”

    • It’s a real question. Some folks* aren’t crazy about the “restoration” of a past administration, and if Obama thinks that will get him votes, then let him remind them.

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      p>*(Personally, I don’t care that much.)

      • Obama did not say what he said to make a point about “dynasty” or to question whether it’s a good idea to have the same people running the show in 2009 as were running it in the 1990s (though we all know that a lot of Clinton-era veterans will be part of an Obama administration).  No, he said it to trivialize Hillary — to make her appear to be perpetually in Bill’s shadow.  Clever tactic.  Hillary should’ve shot back more aggressively than she did.  

  11. in the first half — unless you got attuned to their demeanor and “gotca” comments.   I wasnt in the mood.

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    p>The second half looked like it would be better, but I had a glass of wine and an aspirin and dominated the debate myself with deep sleep.  

    • it’s a scream that women get…thanks for posting this…it sums up how women feel about this campaign and why, since Iowa, they are coming out of the woodwork to help Hillary…they get it… they get Chris Matthews and Tim Russert, etal…they get the personal putdowns…they get the double standard…they get all of it, because they can relate to it. ( I would like a buck for every woman I know who has the original Scream painting on her desk, computer screen, bulletin board or refrigerator!…I’d be rich.)

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      p>The best part about watching this campaign slog through the mire of hardball politics is that it becomes clearer and clearer that anyone who thought America had come such “a long way baby” need only scratch the surface to see we have a long way yet to go. When push comes to shove (and of course it does come to that with so much at stake) the truth does emerge…the holier-than-thou’s are scrutinized, the records are ripped apart and dissected, their words are matched to their actions…that’s politics..it’s a tough business.

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      p>Even the great Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm said that being a woman had posed more barriers to her advancement than being black. But,she called both her “handicaps.” We all should “Scream” at the commentators, pundits, pollsters and media faux-news celebrities who are trying to make the Clinton-Obama contest into a revenue-producing reality TV show.

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      p>We don’t need to exaggerate what happened…there was no yelling…I endured the entire event and there was no yelling that I saw…Edwards was a calm oasis in the back and forth banter, but he could afford to be. He knows he will not win and he can play tie-breaker on the issues his opponents are debating. I found Edwards particularly helpful on the “100 voted present” debate about Obama’s state senate record…he made good points.

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      p>

      • …it sums up how women feel about this campaign and why, since Iowa, they are coming out of the woodwork to help Hillary…they get it… they get Chris Matthews and Tim Russert, etal…they get the personal putdowns…they get the double standard…they get all of it, because they can relate to it.

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        p>At some point, the Hillary bashing is going to push more women to her side. I believe this very strongly. I’m not a woman and I’m not with her, but I think it’s tough to make the case that any other candidate is being personally characterized in a more negative way by the press or in the coffee shops.

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        p>I think there may be a lot of women keeping quiet to avoid the nastiness, but who will enter the voting booth, think of their daughters, monthers, grandmothers and the sexist men who have passed through their lives and smile as they pull the lever for Hillary.

        • Yes, noternie…you should buy it…there was an African-American professor being interviewed on NPR about the whole gender-race thing. She said that words have power beyond the obvious…She said when Barack says, “Yes, we can!” it is like a “secret handshake” to the African-American community…a clarion call to action. He is smart to use it, he is messaging a positive to his base while speaking to the public.

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          p>Negative messaging by the pundits and media class attacking Sen. Clinton on everything from her laugh, to her clothing, to  the actions of her husband and brother and campaign supporters, etc, etc, etc…they had a positive result for Clinton…the women who watched and heard these geniuses saw clearly what was going on, they had seen it before in their own lives…it was a clarion call to them…don’t sit on the sidelines, defend Hillary (and yourself), support Hillary (and yourself), stand up for Hillary (and yourself, your daughter, your granddaughter)…got a much longer way to go than you thought, baby!

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          p>Thanks Chris and Tim and Dan Rea and all of the talking heads for reminding us of that, and waking a previously lethargic and uninvolved giant of a voting block.  File under: unintended consequences.

  13. As we watch the global marketplace melt into an amorphous heap … and the leading contenders to succede Schrub the Almighty bicker like grade schoolers .. who of all these shills has been out there warning us day and night about these very events that are unfolding.
    When not promising us a chicken in every pot, the remainder would be messiahs scramble for the latest study group results to generate newer better talking points. Only one of these so called politicians could pass as an actual economist and statesman and has views founded on knowledge and experience. He has mapped out the course that we need to take if we hope to see a continuation of life as we have come to know it. Will you listen or will you get in line for that hoped for complimentary  chicken?

      • How about Bernanke tripping over himself to help his Wall Street buddies. Did you enjoy your 2% pay cut today?
        Ah .. thats okay. Theres plenty more where that came from.

    • Radically different economic policies!

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      p>That’ll calm everyone down.

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      p>”Paging Ludwig Heinrich Edler von Mises!”

      • Different as in go back to what worked prior to Nixon trashing Bretton Woods …
        There was an old saying by some socialist leader back in the day .. It went something like ..
        The way to wipe eliminate the middle class was through a program of taxation and currency devaluation.
        If you havent noticed, every time Bernanke opens his mouth the dollar drops another couple of percentage points.
        Thats our paychecks .. They are well on the way to paying us with pesos .. Then what?
        So you can either support RESTORING sanity or not.
        Is it so radical to propose stopping the bleeding now rather than wait until the evidence is EVEN CLEARER?

          • The thing most people despise more than anything is a situation where there is no continuity, no useable references from which to gauge or plan.
            The worst things come from what you termed “radically different economic policies”; especialy when those policies are already proven not to work for many.
            It is clear that the currency that we use must have some consistant merit. Its merit can not be arbitrarily changed on the whim of some individual or cartel based upon the needs of any specific grouping especialy when one considers that that groupings interests may not necesarily parelel that of the general public.
            That is the first step in leveling the playing field IMO, taking away the power of some to manipulate the currency.

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            p>I dug back and found the link to this little presentation. It was actualy the first thing I saw that peaked my interest in the fine art of currency manipulation.
            Sometime when you get a few minutes, check it out. Its a real educational experience.

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            p>http://video.google.co.uk/vide…

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