Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

Debate in Philadelphia

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Missed the opening statements.    

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  1. pick the other as running mate:  Why not?

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    p>Obama 1st:  Extrordinary journey with Clinton and other candidates.  Premature to speak about running mates.   Dems will come together in Denver.      Lists reasons– people in US falling behind economically and McCains vision foreign policy failed.

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    p>Clinton: Will do whatever she can to make sure that party closes ranks and will do anything to make sure Dem is elected.  Has seen damage Bush years, failed policies, pain, and differences betw Clinton and Obama pale incomparison to McCain

  2. Obama: Can see how people were offended–not first time he has mangled a statement and wont be last.     Notes point is that when people feels Wash is not interested — people focus on constants like religion and votes on guns and exploited wedge issues.   It distracts from focusing on real issues

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    p>Clinton:  “I’m the grand-daughter of a mill worker from Scranton”  I dont believe they cling to religion when Washington is not listening.  I dont believe they cling to guns when they are frustrated.   “I can see how people are take aback or offended by the remarks…”   People resilient etc

    • This smacks of the same deliberate distortion by McCain on John Kerry’s bad joke about G.W.B. getting stuck in Iraq because of his poor education.

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      p>The issue was voting, not with how they spend their time. Hillary is just using the same tactics that Bush/McCain used to slam Kerry.

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      p>It makes me sick to think that Hillary has that little respect for the reasoning abilities of the people who’s votes she is trying to win, when she’ll lie about her own percetions of her oponent’s statements.  

  3. Obama can beat John McCain

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    p>Basically says she is better candidate but that she is better candidate.

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    p>Obama says same thing in reverse.

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    p>Obama then notes that Clinton has said that he is elitist.   He says that the problem with our politics is that you take one persons statement out of context and beat it to death.   He says it’s OK — It is politics but does not help solve everyday problems.  Quotes her “stay home and bake cookies”    Says she drew wrong lessens from those politics

    • her comments were not about Obama but about his remarks.   Then goes on re:  “starts from a base of respect”

  4. Notes that he had said to Wright he can “get rough in speeches”

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    p>Obama: My job is to get beyond those divisions–when unified there is nothing that we cant tackle.

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    p>to Clinton re her past statement that people should have gotten up an walked out of church.   She says to listen to Wright after 9-11 would have been intolerable to her.  ” you get to choose your pastor”.   She would not have stayed in church.

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    p>Obama:  Was not in church that day–Notes that Clinton’s pastor has spoken up for Wright and that Wrights church has done a lot of good.   People with different perspectives need to get past those divisions to get things done.   When asked re Wrights patriotism–Obama notes that he is a former Marine and does not doubt his patriotism.  

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    p>Clinton: It is clear as leaders we have a choice who we associate with.  Not just specific remarks but Wrights association with Farrakhan and support for Hamas.  

  5. Clinton: “I’m not dumb” I wrote about going to Bosnia and said some things.  I am embarrassed by my mistake.   Cites Wes Clark re importance of Bosnia mission.  Cites her experience going to many countries and missions which makes her better for going against McCain.

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    p>To Obama:   ? about Obama’s emails questioning her credibility.  He hasnt commented on Bosnia. Steph notes that his campaign has.   Obama says HRC has a right to errors and he has made some himself.  It is important that we dont get tied up in gaffes when we are in economic crisis and in two wars.  It is a mistake to be obsessed with gaffes.

    • All the questions so far have been spin cycle stuff: Obama’s bitter comment, Rev. Wright, Clinton’s ‘sniper fire’ gaffe, Obama’s reasons for wearing or not wearing a flag pin.  Did the McCain campaign provide the questions?  Is ABC trying to be the new FOX?

      • voters that they can spend an hour on “your momma wears army-boots” headlines.    

  6. Basically, this is about throwing as much crap at Obama as possible — guilt by association, tenuous relationships, blah blah blah — and then giving Hillary an opportunity to pile on.

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    p>Completely hideous.

    • The old game where they target the front-runner during a debate.  I remember you all complaining so much when the crosshairs were trained on Senator Clinton.  At least Obama is only fending off one other Democrat, rather than several.

  7. wear the flag?

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    p>Obama: I revere the American flag.  I would not be running for president if it were not for this country.  I have tried to show my patriotism by how I treat veterans in Vet Affairs committee,  support economic fairness and will continue to fight on issues.  People will not be questioning patriotism but how to to make things better.   Says this is the kind of manufactured issue that distracts.

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    p>Stephanopolous asks about Mr Ayers WeatherUnderground who participates in bombing is a friend and asks why this would not be an issue.   Obama says that this is an example of manufactured issue–he is not going dissociate from a neighbor that did something radical when Obama was 8 yrs old si representitive of his views.

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    p>Clinton: Obama’s relationship with Ayers is closer than Obama says.   He served on a board with him.   Repubs will exploit issues like this.    

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    p>Obama:  “by HRC’s own vetting standards”  Bill Clinton pardoned two members of Weatherunderground.   That is closer than serving on a board.

      • Who pointed out that firemen, policemen and real patriots proudly wear the flag pin – why wasn’t Obama?  

        • Where he can be given good care and live out the remainder of his days in comfort and dignity. The man has no place on national television. Is he even capable of presenting an original thought or framing a question that requires some modicum of critical reasoning.

          • I wrote ABC that it would be a public service if they fired the guy.  Didn’t give a thought to his future comfort or dignity.

      • but yes, the flag pin did come up.  They even had a PA voter ask the question about why he wouldn’t.  For crying out loud!

      • …a flag pin either.  Would it clash with her pantsuit?  Is it a sexist man thing?  How about they both dress up as Apollo Creed in Rocky?  

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        p>[gag] [gag] [gag]

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        p>Does this rank as the worst of the horrible lunacy that masquerades as debating?  Is anyone ashamed?

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        p>Here we are in the world’s superpower with citizens losing their rights, property, jobs.  Endless war with politician/businesspeople of all stripe making obscene profits on the deaths of our servicepeople.  Scandal after scandal.  News media brought to the a level of Goebbels “truth”.  Republicans that so disgust the public that the Democrats are brought to power. Then the Democrats not only do nothing to change the status quo, but join the blood feast.

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        p>And Charlie finds some dope that is concerned about a flag stickpin.  Does anyone see the stupidity in all this?  

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        p>Well, this got me to vote against all incumbents of whatever party position they hold.  This whole business is dirty and disgusting.  

  9. It’s 8:52, almost halfway through the debate, and we have the first issue-based question of the night.  Charles Gibson has asked about withdrawal from Iraq.  I was afraid this would happen ever since I heard that George Stephanopoulos was cohosting.  Last debate I remember him moderating, which I believe was pre-Super Tuesday in CA and the first with just Clinton and Obama, he did nothing but try to start a fight between the candidates.  The candidates have demonstrated a lot of patience.  If it were I up there at the podium there were a couple of times I would have blurted out, “Oh, grow up!”

  10. and obama sounded confused about role of commander in chief-he’s allowing himself to get drawn into the anticonstitutional idea of president as “the decider”

    • we tuned in just to turn the sox off for a bit, hoping they’d “rally in absentia” (they did).  

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      p>clinton looked good, in command.  

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      p>obama had so many um’s…um’s…um’s….he looked so different from the guy who is so comfortable speaking in non-debate formats.  i wonder why.  

        • he’s great when he can have a mental map of where the conversation is going, and that;s why he’s great in a speech and not so great in debates.  whether to chalk it up to just not being so great at formulating sparkling answers on the fly, or a lack of preparation on some issues, i don’t know.  maybe it’s both.  after the umpteenth debate, though, it’s a little embarrassing to hear stammering from someone who clearly has an excellent brain and doesn’t otherwise have a speech impediment.

          • 2 one on one debates he was good extemporaneously.  I think he is more halting  when he is trying to be too careful or appearing tired.   Tonight he is being halting.  He reminds me of Kerry in that way (except that Kerry is a better debater and not as good of a speech maker).   When Kerry is not trying to be careful he is a great debater.  

    • He would just float harmlessly to earth, be taken prisoner, deftly switch to whichever side he thought would benefit him personally the most, and in a likelihood become a commenter for the other side. We should send him off with Gibson so they can comfort each other.

  12. How is that going to happen?    Is HRC going to stick to her plan to get out of Iraq?  Will she do it if generals ask for more time.

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    p>Clinton:  Yes I am going to order them home. We have civilian control of military.   Bush admin has been “moving the goalposts” (purloined line from Kerry)    
    We will begin to withdraw within 60 days.

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    p>Gibson asks: Are you saying that you know better than mil commanders (he makes unsupported assumption that mil commanders want stay?)

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    p>Clinton:  we dont know what will happen if we withdraw — we do know what will happen if we stay–same as now.

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    p>Gibson to Obama:  quote campaign manager that we will be out in 16 months.  

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    p>Obama: “President sets mission.  Generals carry out mission”   States will always listen to commanders re tactics.   Mission is to get out of Iraq — Including not having permanent bases.    Cites current strategic overextension of military

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    p>Steph:   re ? Iran nuclear threat.   Do we treat attack on Israel as attack on US

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    p>Obama:  First make sure Iran does not have nuclear weapons — directly engage with carrots and sticks.   Make clear that No options off table.   “An attack of Israel is an attack on our strongest ally in the region”

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    p>Clinton:  Enlist region in security arrangement with mideast countries re iran.  Would not meet with Amidenijad directly first.   Would promise deterrant back up to any attacks on any allies by Iran

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    p>(this discussion seems to accept as an a-priori that Iran is planning to attack other countries??)

  13. Clinton:  Will allow taxes to return to pre-Bush tax cuts for >250,00/yr.   Would cut taxes for middle income and support education and homecare.   Her plans do not include middle class tax increases.

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    p>Obama:        middle tax tax relief — >    ( I lost track of typing so I missed his answer)  

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    p>He is asked about capital gains ? increase:  Obama said that he will look at capital gains — notes the enormous profits of hedge fund managers which are only taxed on capital gains.  

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    p>Clinton: cites prevention of home foreclosures as part of total economic package

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    p>Gibson asks if she would raise capital gains and she says no more than 20%.  She is oppose to eliminating payroll tax cap.

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    p>Obama:  says he favors increasing the cap.    Gibson says “that is a tax”.  Obama notes that Clinton has said something similar off the record.  

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    p>Clinton: says she is committed to keeping SS solvent and cites tax cuts and war costs.    Dont cut benefits and dont impose burdens.  Cite Tip O’Neil and Reagan commission that made SS solvent

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    p>Obama notes that the SS commission that she cites improved SS did so by increasing retirement age and by raising the payroll cap.  Says she cant have it both ways and be against raising the payroll cap but support a Commission that likely will do just that.

  14. … with that Laffer Curve capital gains tax cut stuff.

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    p>Here’s the data.

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    p>The 1997 cut didn’t change the underlying trend there, and the 2003 cut happened when the market was bottoming out.

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    p>I really wish either candidate had done a better job calling him on the false premise of the question.

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    p>I’m disappointed with everyone right now.

  15. I hear you believe in an individual’s right to bear arms? Why dont you advocate this now?

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    p>Clinton:  cites meeting with Mayor Nutter re what can be done to stem violence.    STates that she will bring back Community Policing  and reinstate Assault weapons ban which results in our police being outgunned.   Will strengthen regs to track weapons.   Balance rights of lawful gun owner to use guns and keep out of wrong hands.   Polarization does not respect the commonsense of American people.

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    p>Gibson to Obama:  re Wash DC law prohibiting handgun ownership.    Obama states he has not read briefs but 2nd Ammendment does not constrain local ordinances and state regs.       He says that favors common sense restraints — registering guns so that unscrupulous dealers are not flooding streets.    

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    p>George to Clinton:  re DC ban.    Clinton says she supports sensible regulation.   States a total ban is not reasonable but does not rule out local regulation.  What works in NYC may not work in Montana.    

  16. Obama: basic principle — Make sure that equal opportunity.   Race is still a factor and is a factor that public accomodation can take into account.   Using example of his daughters — race is not much of a factor and a simple quota system is unfair.

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    p>Clinton:  Affirmative action generally for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds.  Against No Child Left Behind.    For better college funding.  Good line:  “Let’s affirmatively invest in our young people”

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    p>

  17. What to do about gas prices:

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    p>Clinton:  there is market manipulation.  Stop putting oil in strategic oil reserve.  Against gas tax.   Windfall profits tax as opposed to gas tax.  Long-term energy strategy.  

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    p>gibson to Obama quotes Jimmy carter re ending depend on foreign oil

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    p>Obama:  raise fuel efficiency on cars.   Agrees with Clinton answer.  

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    p>

  18. George W Bush?

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    p>Clinton — former presidents useful.   will take thought re using gwBush

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    p>Obama:  More likely to ask advise of Bush’s father than of Bush.      

    • sportschannel back after two months.    I actually wanted to watch the Celtics since I havent seen them since the beginning of the season.  This is the last debate, so I sucked it up and watched.    

  20. …because the Red Sox – Yankees is a 9 to 11 barnburner in the bottom of the 5th. And there is no George Stephanoooooops.

  21. What do they say to unpledged Superdelegates

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    p>Clinton:  Need fighter back in WH.  Someone to take on special interests.  Tax cuts to middle class who feel invisible.   We will tackle problems which have been waiting.  Look at my track record of fighting for people.   Gen Wes Clark and other military experts believe I am the one who can get us out of Iraq and turn this country around.   I am the one who can.

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    p>Obama:  Simple principles:  We are at war, we have lost confidence in govt.  We are betting that people want better than politics as usual.  Dont take PAC and special interests.     Change will happen from bottom up.  Bet paid off.  If we are going to deliver it is important to form a new politic

  23. Thanks so much cadmium and everyone else. So much better than the MSM. Really not comparable at all. The NYT, for example, is all about optics and momentum. They don’t even discuss substantive policy questions until way down in the article. It’s just pathetic. Why should anyone really lament the passing of newspapers when this is the rubbish they offer (actually, I still like newspapers, but their coverage of the debate is so weak elementary school students probably could do better).

  24. to Gibson and Stephanopoulos for the poorest performance by “moderators” in the 21st century.

    • I was so disappointed. All season I’ve been suffering through Wolf Blitzer and Timmy Russert, wondering when are ABC going to do a debate and have a reasonably fair pundit moderate, as George Stephanopolous usually is. To turn out to be the worst is vastly disappointing.

  25. After over a year of watching these two toss mud … who actualy watched this?
    What was this  … their 30th debate?

  27. Ask a noncommercial, nonpartisan group like the League of Women Voters to run a debate to get some substantive questions about policy. The networks would cover it.

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    p>We know what we get from the networks. Why put them in charge?

    • the logo/hrc debate was one of the most substantive i’ve ever seen even thought co-sponsored by a network.  i suppose part of the reason could have been that the network that co-sponsored it, logo, is dedicated to lgbt programming, the topic of the debate.  and the non-profit hrc moderated the debate.  and the subjects raised were absolutely new to the candidate debate stage.  the most lackluster part of the debate were some of the candidates themselves, but you can’t control that.

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