The Interfaith Alliance, Jews on First!, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, (and probably others) are calling them out on this discriminatory, Christian nationalist vanity project that comes with the Congressionally mandated imprimatur of the people of the United States.
Jay Keller of the Interfaith Alliance wrote in an e-blast:
In 1952 President Truman called for “A National Day of Prayer” to unite Americans of all faiths as a way to achieve a vibrant national community. Today, it appears that religious conservatives lead by Shirley Dobson, wife of Focus on the Family’s founder James Dobson, have misleadingly hijacked the event as their own. Calling themselves the National Day of Prayer Task Force, they are excluding Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists and even mainline Christians from National Prayer Day events scheduled for May 1, 2008, less than a week away.
The National Day of Prayer Task Force requires volunteer coordinators to sign a pledge stating: “I commit that NDP activities I serve with will be conducted solely by Christians while those with differing beliefs are welcome to attend.” The coordinators must also sign a statement of faith that includes the following language: “I believe that the Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of The Living God. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only One by which I can obtain salvation and have an ongoing relationship with God.” This clearly aligns a government-sponsored event with a particular Christian denomination, in violation of the basic provisions of the First Amendment to the Constitution.
Now, we ask you and activists across the country to participate in an Inclusive National Day of Prayer Campaign that exposes the discriminatory practices of this fundamentalist evangelical group. Please contact your governor today and ask them to issue a proclamation for an inclusive observance, and not an exclusivist task force covertly organized by Focus on the Family.
Our friends at Jews on First have set up a website dedicated to promoting inclusion in the National Day of Prayer. It has complete background on the National Day of Prayer and the takeover by the Christian right.
There, you’ll also find links where you can learn if your governor has issued a proclamation, and a draft letter and a telephone script that you can use in contacting your governor. Please contact your governor’s office now, and forward our message to friends.
Americans United stated in a press release:
Intolerant Religious Right groups are dominating observance of the National Day of Prayer and government officials should refuse to lend them support, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
The congressionally mandated National Day of Prayer scheduled for May 1 this year has been largely hijacked by the Religious Right and is being used as an opportunity to promote a far-right religious-political agenda.
“In many cases, this event is more about politics than prayer,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “It’s just another excuse for the Religious Right to attack church-state separation.”Many events around the country this year are being coordinated by the National Day of Prayer Task Force, a Colorado Springs-based Religious Right organization run by Shirley Dobson, wife of Focus on the Family Chairman James C. Dobson.
The NDP Task Force’s Web site claims it is the “National Day of Prayer Official Web Site,” but, in fact, the group has no official status. The Task Force states that its purposes is to “Foster unity within the Christian Church” and “Publicize and preserve America’s Christian heritage.” Non-Christians are usually prohibited from leading or speaking at NDP Task Force events.
The Dobsons require volunteer prayer coordinators to sign a fundamentalist statement of faith that declares that “the Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of The Living God” and that “Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only One by which I can obtain salvation.”
In addition, the NDP Task Force Web site promotes “Drive-Thru History,” a home-school curriculum produced by pseudo-historian David Barton that promotes the idea that America was founded to be a “Christian nation.”
Despite its sectarian character, the NDP Task Force often draws support from elected officials. The Dobsons annually visit the White House for its NDP event, and public officials attend NDP Task Force events held at the U.S. Capitol.
Pastordan adds:
We have got to get serious about this stuff, though. The National Day of Prayer might sound like an irrelevant observance of no importance. But if people like Shirley Dobson have their way, their religion will choke out all others, leaving us with a weakened monoculture. It’s not good for faith, and it’s certainly not good for our politics.
Crossposted from Talk to Action
its just a meaningless proclamation, what’s the big deal?
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p>Well, it is just wrong for the state and our governor to give state sanction to an event that, as Jews on First! points out: “excludes Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, Buddhist and even mainline Christian clergy from participating in the observances it holds.”
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p>We expect and demand better from out elected officials.
The only people who can kvetch are the Bhuddists and Hindus.
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p>All the people of the Book have had a Psalm cited, but there is NO mention of inclusion/exclusion.
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p>How exactly can this sinister group prevent people from praying? Grab your yalmulke and shawl, or your old wooden cross, or your prayer rug, and come on down to the public square – EVERYBODY is welcome, and Fred can’t do a thing about it. In fact, I will pray HARDER on May 1st, just to annoy him.
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p>It makes me think of King Canute forbidding the sea from coming in.
but when we have government employees using the people’s resources to direct the prayers of our children — we run into problems, don’t we?
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p>You can try to parse this down to the exact wording of the language in the tiresome manner of hack pols, PP, but this about more than the wording of the proclamation, as you would know if you read the post.
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p>But to clarify: the Dobson controlled events, often held on state property are exclusive, and it has happened over all over the country on many occasions. It is unfortunate that our governor, the former chief enforcer of the nation’s civil rights laws, has lent his name and the imprimatur of the Commonwealth to this excercise in religious supremacism.
You’re right. This is just another example of a specific religion being given preferential treatment by a government (in this case, our state government). It just boggles the mind that our Governor hasn’t caught on to the scam. Bigotry is bigotry, but when it’s wrapped in religion, we’re supposed to ignore the smell and join in the festivities? I don’t think so.
I greatly prefer George Washington’s letter to Moises Seixas (of the Hebrew Congregation in Newport, Rhode Island) to the pandering pulp of Dobson’s proclamation:
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How come people who want to be on the National Prayer Day staff or regional/local coordinators have to believe that
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As the proclaimation says, President Truman began this tradition in 1952. The Mass. proclaimation says zip about any specific denomination, although it DOES cite a passage from the holy books of Jews, Christians and Muslims – as I said above, only the Hindus are left out, and that seems to be omission, not exclusion.
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p>Dobson and his crew seek to commandeer this? Let them organize their hearts out – truth is, all religions are free to express their devotion on this day.
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p>Succumbing to their goofy conditions is like saying the Christmas tree industry owns Christmas.
Look at the National Day of Prayer’s Official Website. If you want to work on this project, you damn well better love Jesus and reject the legitimacy of all other faiths.
The custom is older than his organization, and has been celebrated annually for decades without his ‘checklist’.
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p>As I said earlier, I will pray myself, and perhaps organize others to celebrate the day – and Fred won’t have an iota of control over it.
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p>Nobody can exploit you without your consent.
Listed on the website as being held in the Gardner auditorium. Many of the other events are in town or city halls. It seems to me that the government is giving preference to a particular religion. If this sort of thing is happening in concordance with a federally created observance, it should be mandatory that an effort is made to include and represent any belief that wants to be included and represented. I have no problem with with the Dobson-led group having access to the State House resources as long the same courtesy is extended to all other groups. I do have a problem with the state being exploited to promote “Jesus Christ [as] the only hope for our country” under the guise of a hijacked national observance created for every American’s spiritual benefit.
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p>…is given extra legitimacy because each year the National Day of Prayer Task force is recognized by President Bush at the White House’s NDP ceremony and Chairperson Dobson gets a seat right next to Bush. How convenient. If not de jure, it certainly seems every effort is being made to make Dobson’s group the de facto overseer of the NDP. Again, this looks like a government endorsement of an exclusive religious group.
From NDP 2006:
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p>So Dobson is called (mistakenly I’m sure) “Chairman of the National Day of Prayer” and was in charge of organizing the White House event for NPD. So federal funds were used to support the agenda of Dobson’s exclusionary conservative Christian agenda and the group is routinely given unparalleled access to the White House. This is a blatant abuse of power shielded by the warm fuzzy illusion of fauxecumenicism – and a blatant fraudulent use of taxpayer resources.
crickets?
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p>Or is that the sound of hair growing?
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p>If the Christian apologists only realized how absurd their arguments are. Let’s substitute another religion for every Christian reference, substitute imams for the Dobson types and see how far that gets us.
to think and believe and worship as you choose in my America. Alas, not in that of the Dobsons and their enablers.
Throughout this thread, I have been referring to Fred Dobson. Dobson’s first name is James, but I often confuse him with Fred Phelps – or as they are grouped in my mind, those guys waaaaaay over there. Still, I may continue to just say ‘Fred Dobson’ to indicate a type of rigid and judgemental religious figure….
umm, Fred Phelps is a blot on all of us who happen to be named Fred. Just as Dobson is an embarrassment to all who happen to be named James. (same deal for his wife Shirley who heads the NDP).
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p>PP. Ya gotta get yourself umm, up to speed on these things so the gist of your argument doesn’t rest on first names;-)
I’m actually a glass-half-full type of person in real life. I only play a bitter curmudgeon on the Internetz.
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p>I do believe wholly in reason and evidence, given my role models in deGrasse Tyson, Dawkins, and Dennett. And I do worry about fundamentalism tricked up as something respectable.
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p>If Fred or James or whoever want to say a few words to de-bitter me, they can feel free. 😉
http://www.ndptf.org/custom/ev…
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p>Why, I visit Internet, Mass. all the time!
Sure I’d be more comfortable if it weren’t so closely associated with James Dobson, but by your logic Thanksgiving and Christmas would lose their federal holiday status. Maybe that’s exactly what you want but I don’t. Obviously there is no coersion involved and anybody can pray (or not) however they would like. This doesn’t have to be (and shouldn’t be) about the specific God of Christians, Jews, and Muslims, but rather the more abstract Nature’s God of the Declaration of Independence, Pledge of Allegiance, and “In God We Trust”. I think it’s fair to say that if even someone like Deval Patrick is going along with it there’s no need to be paranoid about the religious right in this case. If our side starts harping on this we will lose more national elections for sure.
What we have here is not Christmas or Thanksgiving, but allowing the Dobsons to discriminate at state sanctioned events on state property under the official umbrella of proclamations by our governors.
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p>I think we can discuss this matter on its merits without having to debate every other contentious matter involving religion that you can think of.
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p>That governor Patrick issued the proclaimation does not make it harmless. Rather it is a bit of bad judgement, one that he could choose to recognize and transcend.
I absolutely support an INCLUSIVE National Day of Prayer, but could you more specifically quote the offending language and/or give examples of public monies being used for one religious viewpoint? Unfortunately I’m having trouble following the links, especially with regard to opening PDFs. As far as I can tell what you have described is a private organization, Focus on the Family, running a PR campaign, something they are well within their rights to do. I find it difficult to believe that Deval Patrick and others would be deliberatly exclusionary in this regard.
advertising event and highlighting Dobson on front page (i.e., advertising a particular religion with our tax dollars). Only Christians are allowed to coordinate and run event. What isn’t sparklingly clear about those motives and the exclusionary intent? Sheesh.
I looked and looked both in links from this post and separately and I saw no government website promoting this. It is not on our state’s website and when I googled National Day of Prayer no sites ending in .gov came up. I did visit the National Day of Prayer website and while that particular organization is Christian it also clearly invites people of other faiths to organize their own events simultaneously. I still can’t open the proclamation itself so I can see the offending language, but I would suggest that some of you are making this out to be more of a bogeyman than it is.
On the surface the language doesn’t appear that offensive…if you’re not offended by the citation of the Judeo-Christian only citation of Psalm 28:7 which reads: “The Lord is my strength and shield; my heart trusts in Him and I am helped.”
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p>The problem is that Psalm 28:7 is the theme decided on and designated by the exclusionary Christian group, the National Day of Prayer Task Force. This is the group that PP argues above as having no official involvement with the NDP, but they some how have gained legitimacy by having their specific language inserted into the national proclamation and 40+ state proclamations (many of which it seems were issued to Dobson’s group directly), and it seems they get to plan the annual White House ceremony which Chairperson Dobson gets to attend, with a prime seat next to the President himself.
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p>So any state or federal website that hosts these proclamations are endorsing the Dobson-led National Day of Prayer Task Force as the legitimate organizer of the NDP.
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p>I have no problem with Patrick or any governor issuing a NDP proclamation, but it should not include language scripted by an radical and bigoted Christian organization, it should not quote any religious text as it implies favoritism, and it should explicitly state that all faiths or lack thereof are equal in the eyes of the Commonwealth.
The cited Psalm verse is pretty generic. I tend to see all religion as being similar in the important themes anyway. All you would have to do is substitute “The Lord” with Allah, Buddha, etc. and I suspect others could relate to it. Don’t all religions trust their dieties and seek their protections? The President is of course very much a Christian and the preamble to the proclamation reflects that. The operative clause, however, specifically calls upon Americans to give thanks “each according to his or her own faith”. I have no use for Dobson and would even recommend a book I read entitled “James Dobson’s War on America” written by a former member of Focus on the Family’s board of directors. However, I don’t like to base my opinion on what is right on who else favors it. Believe me, I’m the first to cry foul when people try to tell us that the United States was founded as a Christian nation; that’s just bad history. I don’t see the need to pretend the vast majority of us don’t come from such a tradition ourselves. I really do see this as harmless, just like “under God”, “In God We Trust” and “God save the United States and this Honorable Court.”
…as I am that the Dobson group is the one who decided the language on 40+ state proclamations, the national proclamation, and they organize the White House event and it seems a fair number of State events. Perhaps I’d be less offended if they occasionally used a verse from the Quran or the Pali Canon or an ancient Mayan blessing or something.
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p>It also be nice to see someone besides Shirley Dobson next to President Bush, too.
Do you really support:
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p>I’m a devout follower of the Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster. I want to be a coordinator at this event to ensure that there is representation of my religion. I’m also not inclined to sign any statement unless it avows my true adherence to the principles of the divine FSM. I have a constitutional right to participate and volunteer in a national day of worship, especially one that uses state property and is officially sanctioned by my Governor. Who do I contact to make sure my religion in included and represented? I’m not kidding.
I clicked through the website and went to “Apply to be a Coordinator”:
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p>Doesn’t seem very inclusive to me. I’m so happy that federal tax dollars are going to promote Jesus Christ as the only hope for America.
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p>And here is the online application itself:
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p>It goes on to make the applicant agree to other things specific to Christ including:
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p>Clearly, not only is this prayer day for the God of the Christians, but it is specifically for Jesus and a specific type of Christians. What utter bullshit! Anyone who thinks this is some sort of ecumenical melding of amorphous “people of all faiths” is not looking closely enough. This is clearly a conservative Christian-centric event.
I also signed up for the National Prayer Day weekly email prayer – I’ll report back if I receive any Hindu, Muslim, or Native American, etc prayers.
Here is the online application referenced above
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I, too, am an adherent of the Church of the FSM. I demand equal time for his noodly appendage at this prayer gig.
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p>I demand our holy triumvirate, the very noodly Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Dan Dennett, represent us in some fashion.
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p>Oh, and I also want Reverend Neil, aka Neil deGrasse Tyson, to give the benediction. When he gets on a roll, it’s a thing to behold.
You know Dawkins was lied to and tricked into giving an interview for that movie and when he went to see the film with a fellow biologist and who also appeared in “Expelled”, PZ Myers, Myers was asked by the filmakers to leave, right? Myers, as it were, was ‘expelled’ from a screening of a movie in which he appeared. This is the movie the New York Times calls:
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p>It also seems that from reviews I’ve read that Stein goes out of his way to connect Nazism and Stalinism to science and faults Darwin’s ideas for the Holocaust! Boy, that seems like a swell movie. Does it at least make a compelling argument that creationism should be taught in public schools?
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p>I may watch the movie some day, but I won’t spend a dime to see it.
… I’ll have to rely on other’s reviews. But if this Alternet review is to be believed, the filmmakers make some pretty sloppy intellectual errors.
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p>Unfortunately, these are the kind of errors you can get away with when you totally control the context of what you are saying and can frame any challenges in whatever way you seem fit. As such, the film probably doesn’t make a good argument (you need to engage the other side in intellectually honest and thorough debate to make a good argument), but people will probably come away from the movie with a ‘see… he’s ma de a strong case’ attitude.
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p>The one place I know of where these ideas were give a decent hearing and the other side gave a robust rebuttal was the Kitzmiller case. Nova did a good summary of it.
And loved it. In fact, I think we may have even talked about it here before, but I can’t remember.
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p>It’s available to watch online, and I’d recommend this to anyone interested in the debate.
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p>That would better describe ‘Farenheit 9-11, which I also went to see.
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p>The science establishment cannot complain about not being given equal time, or being quoted out of context. There is no cut-away editing, and Stein doesn’t interrupt, but asks questions queitly, and then lets them talk. Both sides of the argument (which seems to be where the problem arises for these fearless academics).
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p>The focus of the film is actually much more about tenure, grant awards, and other issues surrounding intellectual freedom in the university. Stein chose evolution, but there are a variety of such forbidden topics now in academia, and the film is a metaphor for them all.
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p>Really – don’t trash stuff based on movie review. If I can pay to see Michael Moore’s films before expressing an opinion, you can return the courtesy or refrain from argument.
… assertions that Mr. Moor doesn’t do the same thing. Nonetheless, it is no way to stand on intellectually honest ground.
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p>”The science establishment cannot complain about not being given equal time, or being quoted out of context.”
Actually it can and does.
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p>If you want an honest assessment where everyone can put their chosen cards on the table and explain at length, you’ll want to read the Kitzmiller transcript.
“Ben Stein says ‘Nobody is saying Darwin caused the Holocaust, but if you took that out, then people would think that it did'”. Yes, but that IS in there, guys. And the discussion of eugenics is about ten minutes in the film – less screen time than Dawkins gets!
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p>And they don’t get it – they complain that the film doesn’t go into scientific specifics, but the film is about ACADEMIC practice, as I said, not science.
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p>ID isn’t worthy of presentation. No backup needed. Really, the podcast reflects the film. The ‘bamboozled’ lady who was in the film calls it ‘anti-science and pro-intelligent design’, and explains that the marketing of the film by the same company that distributed ‘Passion of the Christ’ PROVES that the film is dishonest. Let’s wear out bias on our sleeve, shall we?
Ben Stein and the cadre of goons who made that ridiculous film the time of day.
I have been touched by his noodly appendage and would like to share His message on this national day of prayer. I think my brother in a law and my neice’s boyfriend might want in, too.
It seems like the FSM is represented in Tennessee, in good company with Jesus and an Iraq war memorial:
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gladly coordinate and organize worshipperss of his divine noodly appendanges. I’m already working on making some lovely pamphlets and signs for the event. Will have to follow up and find some good speakers as well. Of course, one must be inclusive, so I’m thinking we should be contacting representatives of all other religions to be sure they have speakers included and given equal time. It is supposed to be, after all, a National Day of Prayer. Let’s make sure the prayers are representative of all citizens of this state.
one doesn’t have to be religious at all to be thankful for family, friends, food, and football. After all, as the story goes, half of the Thanksgiving participants weren’t even monotheists.
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p>Personally, I’d love to see “In God We Trust” removed from currency (it was added to coins as early as the 1860s IIRC, but not to bills until 1957) and eliminated as our US National Motto (Congress signed this law in 1956). I’m more of an E Pluribus Unum kind of guy myself.
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p>While we’re at it, we can get rid of “Under God” from the Pledge. Totally unnecessary, pushed by the NYC Knights of Columbus in the early 1950s, and seen largely as a big F-U to the Communists. Regardless of the reds, it just doesn’t belong in a nationalist pledge whos very first change to their rules was to emphasize a freedom of religion.
that is the message i receive every time our government sponsors or takes part in religious events.
gosh thanks. but i must say that that invitation to observe the anointed self-affirming themselves is right on par with the quality of 2nd class citizenship homo me is permitted to enjoy.
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p>i will be interested to see which of the presidential candidates, if any, show that they have a conscience and respect for the constitution by not attending.
that it’s OK for religious organizations to openly support and teach homophobia, sexism, bigotry or racism and then get a stamp of approval from our elected politicians and government? I asked Pat Condell to explain:
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Regardless of denomination. Even the Church of the most Left will enjoy the freedom to worship as it so chooses.
Is there anyone out there who doesn’t understand the meaning of “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” in the First Amendment? From the discussion here, one would think that the only objection to the national and Massachusetts Day of Prayer is the blatant Christian bias of this state-sponsored religious event. Why is it that those citizens who have not accepted your belief in god or religion are disrespected by the government that is, by law, not allowed to favor, further or proselytize religion? And that applies to religion in general, not only to a specific religion or sect. By proclaiming and encouraging a National Day of Prayer, our national and state governments have become lawbreakers that bring disrespect to our constitution and a good percentage of our citizens. It may not be in the same category as the lawbreaking of the Bush administration, but it is still a flagrant governmental violation that only serves to encourage more governmental lawbreaking. Justice Louis Brandeis wisely stated “Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher… For good or ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for the law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself.” Amen.
and your signature line is fantastic. Of course this is a violation of the constitution. Our government, including our governor, the former Asst. Civil Rights AG, don’t seem to care to stand up for that legal document. When the subject is religion, it’s politically expedient to use it when it’s helpful and ignore it when it’s harmful. Hmmm.
…but a full-out argument to abolish the day all together is a loser.
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p>I don’t want a National Day of Prayer banned any more than I want a National Day of Evolution, National Day of Physics, National Day of Satan Worship, National Day of Bacchanalian Orgy, National Day of Critical Thinking, Ration, Logic and Reason, or a National Day of Knitting banned. I’m all for public assemblies on the first Thursday every may where citizens get together and pray. I’m all for government officials attending such events as private citizens and praying to whomever is listening. I’m even for presidents and governors sending out proclamations, so long that there is no prejudice in the language of the proclamation and no prejudice in the selection of who gets to have a proclamation for their special day or event.
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p>It’s not suppression I want – that never seems to work. I’m for equality and equal recognition that the speech, ideas and faith of people not like James Dobson are equally valid in the eyes of the law. By trying to squash the whole thing, rightly or wrongly, it will be viewed as an attempt to squash free speech and free assembly – and that’s just as bad as the Bush-supported Dobson group and their efforts to marginalize other faiths out of a national day founded for everyone’s spiritual benefit.
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p>I don’t want to remove all religious ideas from this particular public square. What I do want is this: if this event must happen, then no religion should be given special privileges, privileges like deciding what the theme of the NDP is and no religion should be the sole organizer of the White House event or the Mass. State House event, etc. It should be an open event that Americans (or MA residents) of any faith/lack thereof should be allowed to petition the White House or State House event and have the voice of their group heard. Harvard University has a Secular Humanist Chaplain, Secualr Humanists should be allowed time at the White House prayer event without prejudice. Just like Hindus, Catholics, Pagans, FSM followers, etc. Let all the people speak, pray, mediate, hail the FSM etc in the White House and the State House on NDP is all I’m saying. Let’s not suppress free speech, let’s celebrate, spread and explode it.
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p>It’s the House of the people, not the conservative Christians, and the current resident should act accordingly.
… but I still wish I could get “God” off my money, out of my government’s public ceremonies and official functions, and into the IRS revenue streams. If “God”‘s followers want to play politics, let them pay the entry fee like everyone else.
…Do I want to see megachurches that are run in a for-profit fashion and supporting rich, mansion-living, Benz-driving, Gulf Streem-renting pastors who use their power for the political benefit of certain issues in the IRS stream? Yep. Do I want to see a rental property occupied by US Senators that is magicallyzoned as a “church” entered into the IRS revenue streams? Yep.
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p>Do I want to see the small urban storefront churches populated by low income folks or aging congregations populated mostly by older folks on pension/social security taxed? Do I want to see people who have been paying into the collection plate or paying their tithes for 30-40 years lose their space of worship because all of a sudden the church property their blood, sweat and tears helped build and consecrate becomes to expensive by government decree? Hell no. My fear is a tax on religion will become a tax on the poor.
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p>As of right now, I can’t see a fair and just way to tax the corporate-style churches while still allowing the small, often poor congregations to operate unimpeded by government taxation.
… how you will to generate the fair result you are looking for. I understand the point that taxes spread equally among all situations are regressive in nature, so write the ‘minimum bracket’ wherever you figure it makes sense.
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p>It should be noted, however, that it doesn’t make sense to establish a blanket exemption unless there is a state interest. The exemption churches enjoy is effectively a policy statement that it is in the state’s interest to encourage churches. I find that troublesome in and of itself.
I don’t think so. You don’t seem to have the slightest idea of the meaning of the establishment clause of our constitution, just as you haven’t the slightest insight to what I was trying to communicate. I long ago discovered that fundamentalist Christians, in particular, tend to be so blinded by their faith that they lose all sensitivity toward non-believers. I suppose in your mind there is nothing wrong with a law requiring non-believers to drink out of separate, but equal, water fountains from those who believe.
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p>What does it take for fundamentalist Christians (which I presume you are) to understand the concept of separation of church and state? Maybe there is no way of making you understand. Carl Sagan was probably right when he said, “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep-seated need to believe.” Amen again.
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p>That’s the kicker, Mel – the Establishment Clause is paired with the Free Exercise clause, and BOTH are linked to freedom of speech and assembly. There IS no legal separation of church and state – that phrase is from a private letter of Thos. Jefferson, and is nowhere in the Constitution.
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p>You do a lot of assuming – that a religious person is a fundamentalist (almost always wrong), that religious people ‘don’t understand’ the Cosntitution (when you have demonstrated a shaky understanding yourself), that religious people would want ‘a law requiring non-believers to drink out of separate, but equal, water fountains from those who believe’ (when it seems to be YOU are are so intent on preventing religious people from assembling and exercising their Constitutional right to pray).
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p>Your personal opinion doesn’t trump my constitutional right.
Your mistaken assertions to the contrary, the “free exercise clause” is not applicable to the establishment of a government sponsored Day of Prayer and in our own state house, no less. On the other hand, the free exercise clause would come into play if the government tried to prevent your church or any other religious body from declaring a National Day of Prayer that encouraged as many people as possible to participate on church or private property. Clearly, I never suggested otherwise. Furthermore, I would just as strongly condemn any government action that would interfere with that right.
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p>Also, please note that although the words “separation of church and state” do not appear in the Constitution itself, they do appear in Supreme Court case law interpreting the first amendment.
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p>By your signature line I assume you are a Republican. Now that I object to.
PP says:
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p>Actually Jefferson’s letter was intended as a definitieve interpretation of the meaning of the establishment clause, and was vetted by his Atty General with the understanding that this was one for the ages. The phrase itself is rooted in similar phrasing by John Locke and Roger Williams and others in the previous century or so in England and the colonies.
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p>While it is true that the phrase itself is not in the Constitution — neither, for example, is the right to vote.
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p>The point however, is that the phrase has been used by the Supreme Court as a way of explaining the meaning of the establishment clause of the first amendment since at least the case of Reynolds vs. The United States in 1878 and it has been central to every major religious freedom case since. Justice Sandra Day O’Connor wrote in a Ten Commandments case in 2005:
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p>“Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?”
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p>It is the Religious Right that makes the argument that the phrase separation of church and state is not in the Constitution and therefore we should not worry about it. We have a long and clear history of disestablishment of official churches and disentangling mutually corrupting influences state and church. It was seen by the framers of the Constitution as a necessary prerequisite to religious freedom for all, contemporary efforts to blur that history, not withstanding.
Hear that, Mel? That’s the sound of me laughing in your face at the juvenile presumptions that I’m a fundamentalist Christian and a White Supremacist. I invite you to read all of my comments on this thread. And if that isn’t enough, feel free to browse through my other diaries and comments. Is there anyone else here on BMG that thinks I’m a Fundamentalist Christian White Supremacist, lol?
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p>Even if I was a fundamentalist Christian White Supremacist, that fact would be irrelevent to the ideas I put forth. So thanks for reading closely and engaging the text of my comment and not launching and ad hominem! Oh, wait. That’s exactly what you didn’t do.
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p>Down thread you say: “However, there is no question that government is not allowed to support those citizens who believe in god and religion over those citizens who have not accepted your belief in god and religion”. I may not be the accomplished Constitutional scholar that you claim to be (so sorry), by that’s how I understand the laws, too. So by including every single belief system from Atheism to Zoroastorism in any and all official National Prayer Day events, no government support and no special privileges are given to any one belief system. An atheist or Secular Humanist need not say a per se prayer at NDP, let those who are atheist or secular humanist, etc recite some poetry or read from Origin of Species or Stephen Hawking or whatever.
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p>You also say “why not have a National Day Against Prayer?” below. I’d be for allowing that, too. It wouldn’t be my bag because it sounds like an angry, authoritarian pissing match against free speech, but if you organized it and got a Presidential proclamation for it I’d have no qualms. Perhaps a national free thinkers day would be a better idea, a day in which celebrated great Americans who achieved great heights without using prayer to a personal God.
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p>If everyone is included in a NDP, it has the potential to be two things: 1.) it could be a great open event celebrating free speech and sequestering in one place a multitude of diverse and conflicting ideas of what exactly spirituality means or 2.) it will have way too many participants to the point it will become untenable and have to be cancelled because no one wants to sit through a long ass event where everyone gets to speak. Either way it ends the stranglehold of the bigoted Dobson family on NDP.
I said you have no idea of what the establishment clause means and you don’t. I mischaracterized you as a fundamentalist Christian and I was obviously wrong. Sorry about that. I apologize. Really, I do.
stopping any religious organization from having their own National Day of Prayer and full free speech under the protection of the Constitution. I applaud those who believe in whatever their choice might be and would stand with them in protecting their rights to believe and to speak freely about those beliefs. But, the only purpose of this particular National Day of Prayer is to insert a specific preferred religion into the realm of government. It’s that simple. That is the goal. It is clearly stated if you look closely. Many organizations are becoming political and as such, should not be tax exempt. If the main goal is to create the United Theological States and to insert a particular set of beliefs into the laws, it’s unconstitutional to do so. And, our Governor should not be aiding and abetting those who wish to violate the Constitution.
I think I’ve been pretty consistent in my comments to say much of the same things.
In a previous comment on this thread I pointed out that the idea that we were founded as a Judeo-Christian nation was historical hogwash. However, now I feel compelled to rein in history from the other direction. The founding generation even had plans for a non-sectarian house of worship in the middle of DC for the purpose of public prayer built, I believe, with public money.
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p>Let’s deconstruct the First Amendment. “Congress shall make no law…” This is not happening here. No law has been enacted which requires any enforcement or expenditure of public monies. Which leads us to “…respecting an establishment of religion.” We cannot establish a state religion or tell churches how to run their affairs. I also believe civil laws should not be justified by refering to any sacred text. Finally, “…or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. If anything this seems to be encouraging the free exercise of religion.
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p>You should know that while I am Christian I am the farthest one can get from being a fundamentalist. I just don’t want athiests to dictate the dialogue any more than the Christian Right. Not to mention this is a big loser politically. If you don’t want to participate, don’t participate – next case.
Your so-called deconstruction of the first amendment is so off-base and contrary to Supreme Court decisions that it is not worth commenting on and, so, I won’t.
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p>However, there is no question that government is not allowed to support those citizens who believe in god and religion over those citizens who have not accepted your belief in god and religion. I ask you whether or not you would find it offensive and unconstitutional for the federal and state governments to sponsor a Day Against Prayer and encourage everyone to attend the protests at local state houses across the country?
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p>The fact that my position is a loser politically (and I agree it is) only speaks to the total lack of sensitivity and understanding of some Christians.
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p>Hey! Were you IN the movie ‘Expelled’?
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p>Mr. Lynne – that mental mindset, THAT is what the film is about.
is defined as:
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something i think missing from this conversation is the recognition that people like dobson don’t want government endorsement of their style of christianity for the sake of religiosity, they want it for the power it conveys to them and their institutions. just like the organization called the roman catholic church is about power, not about following jesus, james dobson’s NDP is a turf war, not a genuine effort to bring harmony to the earth. most average everyday people who participate in the day probably will be there in earnest. but no one should be under any illusions as to the organizers. because, if it wasn’t all about power, why rig the thing to be exclusive from the beginning? could it be fear or conceding turf? i think it is. dobson’s framing of NDP is very much like a dog pissing on a tree. it’s not an act of religious unity, it’s a power play. sad how many suckers he’s snookered or co-opted.
So why ALLOW a Dobson to co-opt an older tradition, and then ban it on the grounds it was co-opted? THAT is giving him power!
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p>Far better that it be reclaimed. I read the Mass. proclaimation, and the WORDS THERE, not the alleged motiviation of the words, is fine.
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p>I will pray for you, along with Iris, on Thursday. Hey, what can it hurt? And my random acts of reverence are better calculated to drive Dobson mad than any ban he can point to as a martyr.
you give him power by participating in his event.
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p>the words in the proclamation are part of the problem, because they advocate christianity specifically and religion in general.
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p>i appreciate your kind thoughts if that is what your prayers are. however, if you are praying that i find god, i would consider such prayers an imposition. i leave you to your own conscience to not attempt your own mini power play on my metaphysical disposition. don’t be a james dobson mini-me.
Nowhere in this post is there a suggestion of banning the event. The point is to make it inclusive of all religions or no religion (legal and constitutional) and to get the Governor to change his proclamation. Why should you condescend to pray for Laurel or Iris? What exactly would you be praying for? Their salvation? Isn’t that just another example of bigotry?
Anything else is their own business.
While you’re at it, try praying for the Constitution.
I’d like to call for a ban of the event. I don’t want our government promoting any religion.