Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

Hey Charley, Were You Serious or Not? – With Poll

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Recently I commented that Rep.Carl Scortino is supported by Mass Alliance, an umbrella organization of 22 progressive groups. Mass Alliance actively supports and recruits legislative candidates. Members include some teachers’ unions and the Mass State Socialist Party. I also pointed out that Carl’s record shows he “carries water for the Teachers’ Unions”.

Charley comes right back at me with this:

What precise positions of the “socialists” and the “teachers’ unions” do you object to? Why do you object? Do you know that Carl supports those precise positions?

Feel free to use OpenMass.org to research your answer.

Chaley, Is this a rhetorical question? As in, ‘what political and policy stands taken by the Socialist Party or a teachers’union could there possibly be that any sane person could disagree with?’

or

Is it serious question As in, “Hmmm, I haven’t given this any thought Ernie, perhaps you could be a doll and provide me some further details. By all means use OpenMass to find out. They won’t mind.”

or Charley,

Did you speak out of school? As in, “I’m sorry Bob and David. I didn’t know we weren’t suppose to admit that we are a bunch of socialists. Should I keep quiet about the communist thing too?”

I’m Ready to answer Charley, but I don’t want to play the fool. (OK, wrong choice of words)

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Comments

  1. Frankly, I don’t care if a socialist or communist or Christian or Republican or meat-eater or teenager supports a candidate I like.

    <

    p>None of those “supports” render my candidate, for example, a teenager.  Guilt by association went out with – Oh – the McCarthy era, don’t you think?

    <

    p>And guess what, sometimes [gasp!] a Republican supports a Democrat which does NOT render the Democrat a Republican!

    <

    p>In Arlington, some Democrats even supported a Republican – but guess what!  That Republican did not become contaminated or transformed into a Democrat!

    <

    p>Listen, when did the party of Lincoln and Endicott Peabody – who actually were FOR things and cared about people turn into the party of being only “against” things, and mudslinging?

    <

    p>Cheap, very cheap Ernie.  

    <

    p>What Charlie is asking you is WHAT positions does Carl Scortino, himself, hold with which you as a human being, a person, an individually “personally” disagree?  

    <

    p>That is very different from playing the guilt by association lazy mudslinger.  At least that is what I personally, individually, actually THINK.  

    • Charley asked about soicialist party and teachers’ unions.

      <

      p>The Mass Socialist Party concerns me Amber. The Mass Socialist  Party pays dues to an organization with a political agenda.

      <

      p>I don’t kn ow amber? Do you want a socialistic state? I know I don’t.

      <

      p>Cheap?
      Don’t compare cross voting repubs and dems with friunge third parties like the Massachusetts State Socialist party.

      <

      p>Specious and misdirected argument.

      <

      p>Amber, like you I am an attorney and I have represented many criminal defendants.

      <

      p>Unlike you however, I care “if a socialist or communist” supports my candidate. Especially when my candidate cherishes the suppoort of and works to keep the support of the socialst or communist parfty.

      <

      p>Like Carl does.  

      • First, your claim that the “Mass Socialist Party” belongs to Mass Alliance is wrong. The Socialist Party of Massachusetts, the affiliate of the Socialist Party USA, is not a member of Mass Alliance.

        <

        p>You have confused them with the  Democratic Socialists of America, Boston Chapter (not the “Mass” chapter, for good measure), who is a member of Mass Alliance. DSA is not a political party, but a progressive political organization who members belong to different parties, many of them Democrats. Current Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders is a member of the DSA, but not a member of the Socialist Party, for example. Please correct your error.

        <

        p>I agree with the agenda of the Democratic Socialists of America. Tell us which item on their agenda you disagree with, without resorting to your standard vague generalities, and then we can have a real debate. Until then, your arguments amounts to no more than name calling.

        • This is all they will say about issues on their web site

          <

          p>

          We call ourselves socialists because we oppose exploitation of all kinds, whether based on class, race or gender. We believe cooperation is a more important principle for organizing our communities than competition. We believe in democratic principles in all areas of life: in our government, in our communities, in our jobs. And in our own organization! We welcome lively debate, encourage free thought, and reject dogmatic thinking.

          <

          p>The devil is in the details but they won’t give us any. The code words and phrases however are enough for me.

          <

          p>What are they hiding?

          <

          p>Oh yeah, they’re socialists.

          • They’re not hiding anything. Read the full Where we Stand document explaining their political agenda. There Resources page offers many more documents explaining their political perspective. I don’t know why the onus is on me to compensate for your sloppy research — all it took was a few clicks of the mouse to find these links.

            • Social Redistribution. Social redistribution–the shift of wealth and resources from the rich to the rest of society–will require:
              massive redistribution of income from corporations and the wealthy to wage earners and the poor and the public sector, in order to provide the main source of new funds for social programs,income maintenance and infrastructure rehabilitation, and a massive shift of public resources from the military (the main user of existing discretionary funds) to civilian uses.

              Although such reforms will be very difficult to achieve on a national scale in the short term, their urgency increases as income inequality intensifies. Over time, income redistribution and social programs will be critical not only to the poor but to the great majority of working people. The defense and expansion of government programs that promote social justice, equal education for all children, universal health care, environmental protection and guaranteed minimum income and social well-being is critical for the next Left.

              <

              p>Sounds fringe to me.  “Massive redistribution….”  

              • That’s what I’m talkin’ about.

                <

                p>Isn’t full fledge socialism a bad thing in the United States of America?

                <

                p>Thanks Gary

                • Are we talking about all goods and services provided by the government and essentailly everyone has jobs paid directly or indirectly through government spending?

                • you don’t know what definitions they’re using?  or is it something more substantial?  answering my question with a question is less than substantive.

                • I don’t know.  I am confused. I understand there are degrees of socialism and I would agree that we need aspects of it to keep the US the country we want it to be which inclused a free market capitalist economy with some restrictions, regulations, and socilaist programs which practical realities require. We can disagree as how many and what kind.

                  <

                  p>However, I have always assumed that a person or group identifying themselves as socialists or promoting socialist causes are far from the mainstream including liberal Democrats.

                  <

                  p>If I am wrong fine. (again I’m out of character in non-wise guy mode here Laurel)

                  <

                  p>What degree of socialism are we talking about?

                  <

                  p>thanks

                • You ask what degree of socialism are we talking about.  My honest answer is, I don’t know, because it was you who raised an issue with socialism.  I thought you had some specific misgivings in mind.  I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you’ve been going on nothing more than assumptions.  That being the case, I’d hope you’d tone down your attacks until you know what, exactly, you’re attacking!

                  <

                  p>good talking to you.

                • Socialism is bad word in US because we are capitalist economy.

                  <

                  p>Is that what you want?

                  <

                  p>You want me to expalin why, as a United States citizen,  I preser a caputalist then a socilaist in elective office?

                  <

                  p>That is your question?-still br serious and ernest here.

                  <

                  p>Because, based on my up bringing, education, and experience, I just assume that is considered anti-american but many people including liberals like Barney Frank.

                • was to know the reasoning behind statements like this

                  I care “if a socialist or communist” supports my candidate.

                  what is it about socialism that bothers you to the extent that you would want to know whether a socialist supports a particular candidate?  i’m just wondering what the nuts and bolts of your concern are.

                  <

                  p>i find it interesting that you equate being a usa citizen with backing a certain economic mindset.  i think a lot of people make that same equation, but i’m always baffled by it.  sure, we have a capitalist economy, but to me being american means being able to question without prejudice whether our economic system, our electoral system, our educational system, or any other system we have in place is the best we can do.

                • i alsways believed being a socialist in the US is like being a yankee fan art fenway.

                  <

                  p>Someone help me here.

                  <

                  p>Isn’t socialism, without getting into a deep discussion on the philiosophy and merits of it, was hated by ,ost americans.

                  <

                  p>I will give you all my reasons if you like.

                  <

                  p>But are u a Democrat or a Sociualist Laurel. They are not the same thing and are you trying to bring them together in some lose and unseen fashion?

                • “i alsways believed being a socialist in the US is like being a yankee fan art fenway.”

                  <

                  p>Does that mean its more about tribalism than policy critique for you?

                • Tribalism?

                  <

                  p>yeah us Jews, Italians, Catholics, WASPS, Yankees, Irish, Hispanics, Blacks, and the vast majority of every ethnic group that has come to this country have gotten together and formed one big tribe. It is called a capitalist free market society.

                  <

                  p>Are you guys a bunch of Socialists that hi-jacked my party? Too afraid to say what you really are?

                  <

                  p>Hmm. I thought you were all still free market types only with restrictions, and in-line with good Democratic principals. Now I am seeing you are a bunch of socialists devoted to a cause which is anti- American. I am troubled by this.

                • this coming from someone who can’t come up with a solid reason why he apparently dislikes socialism.  too funny.  i guess you’re back to joking around again, huh ernie.  weak.

                • …

                  <

                  p>People kept asking about ‘what socialist policies’?  You had responded about unamericanism.  I wasn’t criticizing, just assessing that such an underpinning isn’t a policy underpinning, but one more of tribalistic identification.  You seem to identify socialism as something ‘non-american’s’  practice or espouse to .  Many would say that the progressive income tax is socialist, not to mention medicare, medicaid and social security.  There are many socialist policies that Americans have been operating under for multiple decades.  Many would also call those policies progressive.    

                • So if a Yankees fan told you, “Hey, I think that Tim Wakefield’s a pretty good pitcher” would that bias you against Wakefield? Or would you do the objective thing and look at his stats to see whether or not he’s a good pitcher?

                  <

                  p>In short, it shouldn’t matter who likes Wakefield, it matters whether or not he’s actually good.

                  <

                  p>Likewise, it shouldn’t matter who like Sciortino — it matters what Sciortino’s postions actually are. Right?

                • Should Obama be penalized for Rev Wright? I tend to think not. He he has disavowed him and although he has good things to say. His bad things far far far outweigh the good. So the normal American would stay clear.

                  <

                  p>Socialists is that times 100.  

                • what is it about socialism that bothers you to the extent that you would want to know whether a socialist supports a particular candidate?  i’m just wondering what the nuts and bolts of your concern are.

                  <

                  p>I suppose if a majority want Socialism, then go for it, but if a Candidate stands up for “massive redistribution of wealth…”, any candidate, anywhere in the US, for any elected position, he or she will lose 99 times of 100.

                  <

                  p>So if a Socialist organization endorses a candidate, it’s fair to ask where that candidate stands on the platform of that Socialist organization, no? Fair question.

                • The word “socialist” is, at once, so broad as to encompass everything from the New Deal to French economy killing regulation to forced collectivization.

                  <

                  p>It is also almost as negatively loaded a word as there is in mainstream American politics, even if not among the readership of BMG.

                  <

                  p>If a group volunteers to put this loaded word in their name, then they are, in my opinion, guilty until proven innocent by clear and convincing evidence.

                • The use of that phrase seems to lend creedence that the “degree” of this particular group is on the high side.

        • Did the put the word Socilaist to confuse? What meaning in the dictionary are you and they referring to.

          <

          p>The Democratic Communists, the Democratic Nazis, The Democratic Bowling Team.

          <

          p>Greg, are you saying the Democratic Socialists are not socialists.
          Like european socilaists?

          <

          p>You insult my intelligence Greg.

          <

          p>You are saying, “Pay no attention to the man behoind the curtain.”

          <

          p>He is not a socialist trying to get other socialists elected to office.

          <

          p>But you can’t telll me what he is. Just what he isn’t. A socilaist.

          <

          p>Sorry Greg. I ain’y buying it.

          <

          p>Stand Up People. Be Proud!  If you are a Socialist don’t hide it. Stand tall. Tell others why they should be socialists too.

          • I did not deny that Democratic Socialists are socialists. Clearly, that’s the label they choose, and I think it’s accurate.

            <

            p>What is false is that the DSA is equivalent to the Socialist Party USA. The Socialist Party is a tiny third party (some may say “fringe”) with their own agenda and tactics. The Democratic Socialists is a far more mainstream group whose membership includes many prominent members of society, including Bernie Sanders and Cornel West, and it is not a party. The DSA of Boston, through Mass Alliance, has endorsed several incumbent Democratic members of the State Legislature. I doubt any Democrat would be considered “socialist” enough to earn the support of the Socialist Party — that’s precisely why they run their own candidates for office.

            <

            p>What exactly is your obsession with labels? If you have a specific policy beef with Sciortino, then raise it and we’ll debate it. Until then, you’re just blowing hot air.

    • None of those “supports” render my candidate, for example, a teenager.  Guilt by association went out with – Oh – the McCarthy era, don’t you think?

      <

      p>I don’t know, but if I discovered that the KKK supported a particular candidate, or the Commnunist party, or the Socialist party, it’d be worth asking why.  No?

      • Sure, it be worth asking why. It would not be worth automatically throwing the candidate out with the bathwater, as EBIII seems intent on doing.

  2. Just that about everyone else in his social class and lineage was a Republican.  Duh.

    <

    p>But my point remains, Ernie, what are you FOR?

    <

    p>What are Republicans here in Massachusetts FOR?

    <

    p>Being against things and not for anything, tearing down and never building is killing the Republican Party and NOT what the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, and Rockefeller once stood for.

    <

    p>When did Republican become a synonym for “meanness”?

    <

    p>A one party system is not healthy – even I agree as to that.  But my party wants to build, has a proactive vision for making lives better.

    <

    p>Yours no longer offers anything to anyone but the top one percent – and helping those who need nothing just is not an appealing goal to me.  

    <

    p>But then, there must be a reason that Republicanism is an endangered species these days.

    • It’s not about what I am for.

      <

      p>That is like Deval and the Boston Globe’s argument for casino gambling. They didn’t have one so they said, “do you have a better idea?”

        • Greg, why is Mass Socilaist so mum on their agenda. Except universal health care I mean.

          <

          p>BTW GReg, for the average working familay who has health insurance why should they want universal health care?

          <

          p>How does universal health care help the currently insured?

          <

          p>Because I am not sure mandatory universal health care is good.

    • the point is teachers union issues and socialst party issues do not require in depth debate here. We know what they are. Charley’s question just surprised me.

      <

      p>I stand by my post. Charley is it really necessary for me to point out some of the issues in which i disagree with the Massachusetts State Socialist party and the teachers’ unions? (like the benefits capitalism and a free market system, and charter schools)

      • …being endorsed doesn’t make someone a member, nor “tar” them somehow.

        <

        p>And I still, truly have NO idea what it is you are objecting to – an issue?  A position?

        <

        p>I go issue by issue, position by position.

        <

        p>I am NOT going to oppose a candidate or re-election of an official based on who endorses them.  

        <

        p>I think that is silly name calling, I really do.

        <

        p>So, in order for ME to take YOU seriously, you need to go on record as to what it is you object to about one or more of those who endorse Carl Scortino, what positions of his you personally disagree with, etc.  Just going “red smear” does not carry any weight at all at least with me.

        <

        p>Of course, it is totally possible you do not care about my opinion at all.  That is also your right.

        <

        p>But I decided to take you seriously and let you know I found your post to be nothing more than 1950s McCarthy style “red baiting”.

        <

        p>As a result, I found your post to have no heft, and you went down in my opinioni.  Just how it is.

      • that means i hate socialists and communists and I support charter schools.

  3. You still have utterly failed to put forth a single policy resulting from this that you oppose.

  4. I think a little wealth redistribution would be good for the rich, as a character-building exercise, and also to help them get through the proverbial “eye of the needle” into the Promised Land. I mean, really, what’s life without a little adversity and privation?

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