Here’s what the Senator and the media don’t want constituents to know about all of this visa alphabet soup: No citizens or green card holders are welcome to apply. It’s really that simple. The result of this “emergency” order is that another whole batch of US jobs are being advertised as OPT only. The OPT visa program was created to allow foreign students at US Universities to apply for a year of employment following graduation in the interests of “cultural exchange”. It is not a path to citizenship. The 12 month period has been extended by emergency order to 29 months. Here’s an ad on Dice.com for a corporation based in Hyderabad INDIA that’s already begun seeking ONLY OPT, H1B and J-1 visa applicants. No citizens or green card holders need apply (and if they do, it is perfectly legal to ignore them). Please note that your taxpayer dollars are being used by government organizations to legally thwart the hiring of qualified American citizens. There are now reports of US medical student grads losing out on residencies because of preference being given to OPT students. Is it really in the best interests of this country to deny available jobs to citizens and green card holders? When US doctors can’t appy for jobs, will someone begin paying attention to this fiasco?
A number of organizations have banded together and filed a lawsuit requesting a preliminary injunction against Chertoff and The Homeland Insecurity Department. The AFL-CIO has filed an amicus brief in support of the lawsuit. Chertoff will be using the argument that these organizations have no standing. I’m not an attorney, but I would think that every single US citizen who has been refused the right to apply for a job advertised as “ONLY for visa holders” should have standing. If there are any grads out there who’ve been recently sold out, now’s the time to be heard and to join in the effort to stop the insanity (I’d contact the AFL-CIO).
There is a lot of complexity to visa issues. It’s not always easy to discern where to stand on these issues. Witness BMG poster JayBooth who, as a good progressive Dem, wanted to dismiss my last posting about H1B’s as my being anti-immigration. The whole problem with his theory is that none of these visas lead to green cards and immigration. They are simply a method used to drive down the costs of labor and to further outsource jobs to other countries. This is what is happening in DC where common sense is trumped by corporate lobbyists. In this particular instance, there is no right or left. There is only common sense, which our Senators, Congresspersons and Governor don’t seem have much of when listening to folks like Bill Gates.
From Wiki, here’s the justification for the existence of each type of visa:
A J-1 visa is a non-immigrant visa issued by the United States for exchange visitors. The purpose of this visa is to promote cultural exchange. Students must meet certain eligibility criteria and be sponsored by a private sector or government program. Exchange visitors are expected to leave the United States at the completion of their program and return to their home country.
The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the United States under the Immigration & Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H). It allows U.S. employers to employ foreign guest workers skilled in specialty occupations – regardless of whether qualified U.S. citizens or residents are available to fill these jobs.
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The DOL’s Strategic Plan, Fiscal Years 2006-2011 (pg. 35) states: “…H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker.”
An L-1 visa is a visa document used to enter the United States for the purpose of work in L-1 status. It is a non immigrant visa, and is valid for a relatively short amount of time – generally three years. L-1 visas are available to employees of an international company with offices in both a home country and the United States, or which intend to open a new office in the United States while maintaining their home country interests. The visa allows such foreign workers to relocate to the corporation’s US office after having worked abroad for the company for at least one year prior to being granted L-1 status. The US office must be a parent company, child company, or sister company to the foreign company.
Optional Practical Training (OPT) is a period during which undergraduate and graduate students in F-1 status who have completed or have been pursuing their degrees for more than 9 months are permitted by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) to work for at most one year on a student visa without needing to acquire a work H-1B visa towards getting a practical training to complement their field of studies. F-1 students are permitted total of 12 months towards practical training, on being certified by the advisor of the usefulness of the work towards goals of the degree, which can be distributed between Curricular Practical Training (CPT) and OPT. M-1 students are also permitted to engage in post-completion OPT. They are entitled to one month of training for every four months of study, with a maximum length of six months.
The issuance of these visas does not typically result in immigration and the US permanently retaining advanced skills. That is not the stated purpose for the existence of these visas.
Aren’t there any politicians out there who will stand up for Democratic priciples and US citizens’ rights? Do our children have to live through the battles for civil rights and equal opportunity all over again?
Who finished her master’s in May, just got a job, high-end financial stuff, regression analysis, etc.
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p>So she didn’t have a job in time to apply for H1B’s this spring, her OPT runs out next spring, and the next round of H1-Bs aren’t valid until the following fall.
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p>What about her? I tend to think she deserves this extension. Smart, hard worker, got her master’s in the US and is contributing the the economy. We don’t want her?
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p>Certainly any job advertised as “Only for Visa holders” should be against the law, that’s discriminatory. But why attack the entire visa program?
Also states they’re willing to hire US Citizens, I think they were just advertising that they’re willing to sponsor, as many companies are not, they don’t want to go through the paperwork.
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p>Northern Jersey, Indian hiring manager.. yeah sounds like an immigrant shop. Probably a little bit of a sweatshop too compared to most places. I mean, we could stop approving/extending visas, then this job won’t exist. The guy who runs the place is prob on a visa. Don’t see how that’ll improve anything.
before adding more. We’ve been all through this. I’m very sorry your friend is in a bind. The problem is that the system is horribly broken and she would benefit from it being fixed. Body shops have exploited these issues long enough and asking US workers to shoulder the burden of this insanity has got to stop. That body shop is not looking for American workers. If you believe that, then go submit your applications to some of those job openings. I’d be curious to hear about the results. Since you’re such a hot commodity, you should have no problem. Discrimination is rampant!
They’ve probably got a bunch of entry-level copy/pasters doing 80 hour weeks on crap templating work. For low pay. I’ve dealt with Indian and Nepalese H1Bs. NY Market has a lot better than that for any American with the skills listed on that job description.
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p>But seriously, just a “sorry your friend is in a bind”? That’s the American dream we’re talking about, come here, get an education and build a life. She’s making loan payments on her tuition already.
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p>And due to a paperwork shuffle we’ll just kick her out the door at 6 months on the job, right when all the time we’ve invested in her through training is paying dividends. That’s a HORRIBLE idea. I’m all for extending these OPT visas and don’t see why anyone could be against it.
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p>I’m for any kind of reform, but until there is reform, helping those who are stuck between the cracks and deserve a chance to stay here and contribute should be on anyone’s agenda. Kerry’s right.
the American dream, she needs to become an American Citizen. H1b and these other visas aren’t and have never been (as far as I’m aware) a path toward citizenship. She needs to apply for and get a green card, then she can stay.
What’s the waiting list on those green cards these days?
just keep in mind that green cards aren’t open to all foreigners equally. a lot depends on what country they come from. if a H1B person is from a country that makes it highly unlikely she’ll ever get a green card, i’d say jaybooth is onto something by saying we need to keep her here as long as we can to “cash in” on her abilities. the american dream will never be open to all who want it, and it isn’t proportionally allocated to those stupid/lucky enough to have the opportunity of pursuing it.
If the system worked in any way, this person, if qualified with a superb set of skills (and not displacing a similarly qualified US citizen at the prevailing wage) should be on a visa that would give her the ability to apply for permanent status. If you, Laurel, applied for a job and were turned down by a corporation becasue the job was given to a less qualified individual who was willing to accept half the salary you consider reasonable, would you say that’s a fair and equitable system? Does that meet EEOC guidelines? This has never been and will never be an issue about immigration, which needs to be fixed pronto. There are originating countries that are losing some of their best and brightest to the lure of American dollars (which unfortunately have less and less appeal these days). There really is not a lot of harm associated with people having skills that can be brought back to underdeveloped countries. The US cannot and should not try to corner that market.
so please, spare me the lecture!
wasn’t trying to lecture.
I don’t feel I have a clear grasp of the problem as you see it. I will just say that my own educational experience was greatly enriched by my being able to learn from, work with and be friends with people on J-1 and H1B visas. I hope the programs continue, so that we Americans can benefit from the talents of the best and the brightest from other countries. If there are abuses in the system, they of course need to be fixed. But keep the system.
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p>I do recall numerous Cape Cod businesses crying bloody murder after 9/11 when Bushco shut off the J-1 tap. This really hurt those businesses, as they couldn’t get enough local people to take the jobs (something about job duration conflicting with the AMerican school year, I think). So last I heard, the problem was not enough visa slots that the businesses had come to rely on.
I, too, have wonderful friends who have come here on visas. Several have battled through the process and become citizens. Good for them and good for us. They agree with me that the system is broken.
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p>There are people who are talented, gifted and educated who should be allowed to stay in this country. But, right now, the majority of H1B’s are being used by foreign body shops to get people trained and not to keep them here. To make matters worse, the same body shops are now advertising OPT’s and J1’s to abuse those visas in the same manner. Jaybooth’s friend may have displaced a US citizen who is qualified for the same position because preference can be given (legally) to visa holders. That may or may not be the case, but if that’s true, should the laws be such that citizens can be bypassed for foreign students? That is what’s happening. If John Kerry would work on fixing the system first so that it works for all, I would be behind him 100%. I do not advocate abandoning the system.
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p>This measure by John Kerry to subvert the legislative process and get an “emergency” order passed is a violation of the rights of citizens to speak openly and contribute input on the issue. It’s one more example of the executive branch ignoring the Constitution. It’s much more than about Jaybooth’s friend being able to stay here (which she hopefully will be able to do). She’s caught in the middle of the insanity as much as citizens.
have all done studies that come to the same conclusions:
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p>There is no shortage of American workers for jobs being filled by non-immigrant visa holders. There is no deficiency of skills coming out of US Universities. Studies are bogus. Don’t believe me, listen to those who did the studies:
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Jaybooth, the issue is not that your friend isn’t a great person. The issue is that an American law governing the H-1b visa-hiring program allows employers to never seek local talent for job openings in our country.
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p>This is a tragic situation. But we’ve been here before – before the passage of the Equal Employment Opportunity Act. This act required employers to consider all Americans for job openings in this country.
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p>I am old enough to remember when employers said they couldn’t find qualified Black men to drive buses. But what they meant was that they wouldn’t seek qualified Black men for their bus driver job openings. Once EEO was passed – voila! They sought – and they found – qualified Black men.
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p>Then I remember when employers said they couldn’t find qualified women to drive buses. But what they meant…well, you know the drill.
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p>Sadly, employers who never consider local talent via the H-1b and other guest worker programs are “good corporate citizens”, just following the law. That’s why we in Bright Future Jobs are determined to change this.
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p>Luckily, we have Sen. Durbin on our side. He has introduced a reform package that will require employers to seek local talent for top dollar, white collar jobs before recruiting abroad. And he will outlaw the hated Want Ads that we can’t apply for.
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p>I invite everyone on this blog to encourage Senators Kerry and Kennedy to sponsor this legislation.
Who tend to specialize in sponsoring and training immigrants, we’re gonna slam the door shut on all immigrants.
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p>I stand by my American dream sentiment.
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p>Here’s the thing with top dollar, white collar jobs. You know the internet? You can do them from anywhere. We can bring people here or compete with them abroad.
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p>And the other thing with top dollar, white collar jobs, the vast majority of H1B people are not in contention for them. Maybe entry-level white collar jobs, and we should keep a quota to make sure we don’t exclude the newest generation of college kids in a given year.
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p>But right now? Those H1Bs are being exhausted in a single day, each year. Clearly the quota should be raised.
the hyperbole doesn’t work very well. The numbers are exhausted because of abuse. This is not about permanent immigration. I just provided an entire post devoted to explaining that these are non-immigrant visas! These visas do not lead to people and talent staying in this country. Without legislation to stop the abuses, the numbers could be increased ten fold and we’d be in the same situation. If the numbers are tripled, and your friend still can’t get an H1B through the lottery, would you then think the problems should be fixed? Would you then demand more or would you look at the underlying problems? Isn’t it usually best to create good legislation that addresses the problems rather than reactionary emergency orders that just prolong the inevitable need to fix what’s broken? Both your friend and US citizens should have access to the American Dream (if that even exists any longer).
We should certianly make these visas into a track towards citizenship. The people who qualify for these are the ones we should be trying to keep in the country.
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p>And I agree that legislation should fix the problem, including the donut hole in between people’s OPT running out before they could get H1B coverage, what are these people gonna do in the gap, go home and lose their jobs, as well as their chance at H1B sponsorship?
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p>In the meantime, an emergency measure helps people who are caught there now. I’m with you in wanting more reform although we prob disagree on what kinds. I’d like to see H1B dovetail right into green card, and I’d like to see the cap raised because it gets exhausted way too fast every year. I’d be willing to close all loopholes that get around the prevailing wage clause and index that wage to inflation so it doesn’t get too low in real dollars. Where do you stand?
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p>Did you not read anything that I’ve posted on this subject — the top university studies, anything? The people who get these visas are randomly selected by a lottery. Fasion models are recipients (for which a NY legislator has proposed a separate new visa type so that the fashion industry is not left out to dry with just US models). The system is so broken that a fraction of those here on H1B’s even come close to matching the educational standards of US citizens. Go listen to Professor Wadwa from Duke University (Chapter three in post above) on the subject of the bogus assumptions about comparing US degrees to those issued from China and India. Many current visa holders are simply cheap, imported, indentured servants who are being exploited by corporations both here and in other countries. The people who should be allowed in because of their skills are losing out because of the abuse. Stop the abuse first!!! Give US citizens equal employment opportunities, prevent more civil rights abuses of said indentured servants, implement tough oversight on prevailing wage laws and there will be no need for increasing visa numbers. Then, your friend will stand a chance of actually achieving her goals. Until then, she is as screwed by the system as US workers who can’t even have an expectation of being interviewed for a job that is already designated for a visa holder only.
You’re against extending the OPT window THIS YEAR. So you’re for sending my friend back to Honduras even though she has a great job in a high-end field THIS YEAR.
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p>I’d suggest that unless we think the House/Senate will actually fix this mess this year, the least they can offer to hardworking individuals who almost uniformly want to become Americans is the ability to continue to work here.
you, a progressive democrat, are advocating for the use of unconstitutional executive powers to respond to this? You want the Department of Homeland Insecurity to set yet another precendent by subverting the Constitution? Is that really OK with you? It isn’t just FISA that we should be concerned about. It’s unchecked power and corruption. Do you really, really believe it’s OK for our government to issue executive orders and bypass the legislative process? Duh.
We’re talking about Kerry’s position on this. Congress would have to approve the extension.
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p>For the record, no, on principle, even legislative things I agree with shouldn’t be done by fiat by the executive branch.
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p>God, anything to avoid talking about the actual consequences of the policy you advocate.
Or pay attention to links? Or even bother to try to comphrehend research that is presented to you? Congress has been bypassed on this with Kerry’s blessings. An executive order was issued. See posting. Read posting. Understand posting before responding. It’s not hard.
Process aside though, our disagreement is on policy.
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p>The point is they’re not. If you think you should, by all means post diaries toward that goal and lobby your legislative leaders for it. However, don’t write your posts pretending that h1-b visas are a road to citizenship, angry that you’re friend can’t stay in the country using them anymore. If she wants to stay, she needs to do so by going through the citizenship process – which the h1-b visas aren’t a part of.
Before there’s any chance of her getting a green card.
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p>So kick this productive citizen out of the country and tell her to wait a few years for a green card is what you’re saying. Why?
First, green cards are a different question. In terms of actual, permanent immigration – of which these visas are not – I’m personally opposed to this ‘shut down the border’ mentality of many in this country right now. It’s an insult to our forefathers. I wish your friend could do what she still should do – even if it’ll take her a bit longer – and become a US Citizen, where she’ll be able to be here fairly and indefinitely. I’m an open-border kind of guy… but I don’t think those policies should be abused so as to artificially reduce wages in sectors that where there are already enough qualified Americans available for the job.
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p>So, it’s a complete fallacy to suggest that I’d want to kick your friend out – or any hard working, productive person. If it were up to me, she’d probably already be a citizen. However, we simply can’t turn H1Bs and other similar programs into de facto citizenship, because a) there aren’t enough of them to go around, b) industries that really need these visas are losing out and c) industries who don’t need these visas are using them to unfairly depreciate salaries, which both hurts Americans and is an insult to those getting the visas.
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p>Furthermore, in the last diary about this topic, I already advocated policy changes that should fix the problem – which would make it easier for your friend to get an H1B. Quite simply, if businesses are using H1Bs as a means to reduce wages, why not end that loophole and either demand that qualified Americans get first dibs at the jobs or that any international employees are paid on par with their American counterparts.
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p>Believe me when I say this, I truly know how your friend feels. We’ve all drawn the short end of the stick at some point – myself included (and fairly severely as of late, but that’s a long and private tirade story).
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p>Finally, since it seems like your friend is on her way out, why not advocate for real changes? We could double or triple the amount of H1B visas available, but that’s not going to fix the problem – it wouldn’t even guarantee your friend’s place. However, if it’s true that many sectors are abusing the system, if we can fix that abuse, who knows – maybe there really would be enough visas? If not, at least we’d be able to know what exactly would be enough. Most important of all, it seems like your friend does want to become a permanent resident – so why not focus all your time and energy in trying to fix the real immigration mess, not wasting your time debating visas when that’s not the real problem.
Because you’re advocating doing so. Kerry is talking about extending the OPT window so people who just graduated with a masters, in the US, but didn’t get a job in time to get an H1B can get an H1B next year.
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p>And you’re against that. So every person who got a masters in the US this year and is gonna get kicked out on Jan 1st, you’re advocating, no, don’t extend the window and give them a chance to get an H1B while they work on their green cards (which take years to process). Kick them out. Back of the line, kids.
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p>I mean, am I misunderstanding your position here? I know you don’t like the consequences characterized like that, but that’s what they are. You’re against extending the OPT window and against allowing more people to qualify for H1B’s while they’re waiting on green cards, correct? Because some other people are abusing the system? The abuse seems pretty minor league to me, high-end employees are people you are paying for their competence, you get what you pay for and many employers understand this.
you seem to be misunderstanding every word I post. Purposely or for lack of willingness or ability to read and comphrehend, I don’t know. Ryan gets it. Others get it. You seem to be wrapped in some ideoligical cocoon of denial.
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p>David Sirota has written a new book, The Uprising: An Unauthorized Tour of the Populist Revolt Scaring Wall Street and Washington. Maybe you would benefit from reading a few chapters (especially the one about WashTech and Dilberts of the World Unite). I’m thinking you got that Marlboro Man thing going on.
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p>Here’s the link to purchase and here’s the synopsis:
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You said right in your post that you’re specifically against extending the OPT window this year. If I got the wrong idea, you could say actually, we owe these people who got their masters here and are employed, it would be stupid to kick them out because we don’t have our act together regarding a couple loopholes in the prevailing wage clause. Nevermind, let’s extend the OPT window.
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p>But instead you’ll just point me to Sirota talking about outsourcing, which has nothing to do with visas. In fact, since this work can be done from India, by discouraging visas, you’re encouraging outsourcing.
did I say:
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p>Because, to refresh your memory, this is my first paragraph. To give you a little hint on my emphasis, I’m bolding the key points. Does that help?
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I’m not sure whether this falls under the lege or the exec, but I’d certainly like to see it approved by the lege.
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p>So you’re for extending the OPT window, process aside?
I’m for fixing the problems so that this miserable excuse of an executive order to illegally bypass Congress and add to the H1B boondoggle (which is essentially political pandering to corporations that are abusing US citizens and visa holders) is called out for what it is. Unconstitutional. Big picture! Facts. Supporting evidence and documentation. Studies done by Harvard, Duke, Rand Institute, Urban Institute, Center for Immigration Studies, etc. Do these mean nothing to you? Do you really not see the picture? Do you live in a vaccuum or a bubble? Our entire way of life in this country is threatened by this. EEO laws are being tossed out the window. The work of generations of people to enact civil rights and employment protections is going down the drain. A new class of indentured slaves is being created who have none of the civil rights that are supposed to be the foundation of this country. Our Senator just requested an executive “emergency” order to bypass the legislative process that is the backbone of our Constitution.
I’m in one of the occupations that H1B’s go to. We’re judged on efficacy. I’m not threatened by H1B’s. I will believe you that there are corporations who make a business out of circumventing the laws on this through loopholes in the prevailing wage clause, and that should be cracked down on. But in my opinion, that’s an edge case, and it’s less important than the concept of America being the place where smart people from other countries should go.
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p>OPT applies specifically to people who got a master’s in america (maybe undergrad too). So you’re for kicking these people out because some other people are abusing the prevailing wage clause? In my book, anyone who went into debt to get a degree here, we should keep. Almost by definition, they have good english and good skills. You want to reform the system, so do I, we probably agree on lots of the points of reform. But it’s not gonna happen by next spring, so we need to do right by these people.
do you read anything? Don’t take my word for anything. You shouldn’t. That’s why I’ve gone to extreme lengths to collect data so that you wouldn’t have to take my word for anything. It’s called research and documentation. You are not disagreeing with me but with every piece of research I’ve offered about what’s happening — performed by Phd’s at Harvard and Duke to name just a few.
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p>You can and probably will be unless you support legislation to address the issues. I know you’d like to believe you are special. You are not. It’s just a matter of time before you will be replaced by someone who will accept half your salary. You will then have no legal recourse and will probably be forced to train that person in your job if you want to receive a severance package for being a good doobie. This is a problem with techies and their outlook as described in the excellent chapter on WashTech by David Sirota. It’s what hampered the response to the egregious abuses within the industry. Techies who think they are special and it’s not going to happen to them. Good luck with that.
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p>Since you don’t pay attention to facts, I don’t know how else to explain this to you again. Let’s hope others pay attention to statistics and understand the numbers a little better (hopefully that would include our elected rerpesentatives, but I’m rather doubtful at this point).
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p>I can only reiterate the problems with your proposal from the perspective of the AFL-CIO:
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Taking people who went to school here, speak good english and have good skills, and kicking them out of the country. That’s what this comes right back to, regardless of the legalisms about the intent of OPT. Unless you think we can have the green card system reformed by tomorrow, we must either extend these people’s visas, or kick them out of the country. I’m for the first, you’re for the second.
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p>And yeah, I’ve interviewed a half-dozen H1B people for jobs. I’m not worried. Call me arrogant or whatever you want but the fact of the matter is, in high-end jobs like H1B is supposed to apply to, it’s just plain hard to find people right now. There’s a global talent crunch. You can read about it if you want.
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p>Like I said downthread, a good software developer is worth 10 mediocre ones, that’s the conventional wisdom in the industry. Some companies want to gut their talent and replace it with people willing to work for half the pay? Fine by me, they can go right ahead, and that talent will find employment elsewhere.
I’m in favor of our Constitutional rights (if there are any left after this). If US med school graduates can be bypassed for residencies by lower paid foreign students, then it’s time to leave the country because it’s gone already. And, since I know you don’t read and are incapable of putting pieces of data together, here’s the situation on green cards and highly qualified foreign students from the study done by Dr. Matlof at UC-Davis (bolding added to assist you):
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p>Jay, you really should start reading because the MSM and politicians aren’t telling you the truth. You can get upset with me and pretend that I’m out to get your friend, but I’m posting because the only way to get this information out there is to blog about it. The careers of many are about to be or have been destroyed. That is what you should care about, both for yourself and for your friends. As I’ve said before, don’t just believe me. Start asking questions and you might find some answers. Closing your eyes and ears to facts is not going to help you in the long run.
So you’re saying, kick them out, knock them out of their current jobs, and tell them to wait 2-3 years in their home countries.
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p>In case you haven’t noticed, I’ve been consistent the whole time here. And I don’t need the MSM and politicians, I have real life experience with hiring and working. I don’t want to kick people out of the country who have a master’s, speak english, and want to continue to work here. You do, out of a fallacious economic reasoning that it will improve things for Americans.
every single fact I’ve presented and make this an emotional issue about your friend or you can look at the big picture and realize that I’ve documented my position thoroughly. If you want to continue arguing, it’s usually best to have a basis for your argument. When foreign students have the ability to replace citizens and green card holders in the name of coprorate profits, we’re in a race to the bottom. If that is what you advocate, then you will be getting what you ask for. We are talking about a massive imbalance and influx of foreign workers who are being given preference over US citizens. The practice is expanding. The few statistics that you have cited are blatantly false. There is no $50K floor on visa salaries. The unemployment statistics you cite in one article are false and misleading and I’ve explained why. If you have so much experience, then you should know better. If you are so sure of your reasoning, then I would suggest countering what I’ve presented with something more than repetitive comments that in no way represent my position.
You’re just plain wrong economically speaking. If your train of thought had held sway throughout American history, we’d be a backwater now.
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p>There is a 50k floor on H1B salaries and there are exceptions/loopholes in it, as you informed me. I wasn’t aware of that, they should be closed and the floor should be indexed to inflation. But America is the place where smart people from the rest of the world go. If you wanna put up a wall, I’m just gonna have to disagree with you.
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p>And you are advocating specifically that we should throw tens of thousands of english speakers with masters degrees and skills out of the country, out of some bad economic reasoning that it will improve things for Americans.
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p>There is not nor has there ever been a $50K floor nor a loophole or exception. I provided you with a link to a database showing the salaries for H1B visa holders, many or most being below that level. Not only did I provide a link for you to explore on your own (which you are not inquisitive or curious enough to do), I then provided you with a blockquoted list showing your assertion to be untrue.
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p>Again, despite every shred of data I’ve offered, you insist on interpreting this as my being against immigration. Even when my post, videos and links show that these are NON_IMMIGRANT visas and are not used primarily for immigration!!
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p>One more time. I am advocating that visa numbers NOT BE INCREASED. As for bad economic reasoning, I guess you didn’t waste your time on listening to the economists who think this is an example of the free market gone mad. Why waste your effort on actually listening to something other than what’s already in your own head?
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p>Seriously Jay, do you ever read or listen? Or do you just feel that you know it all and don’t have to waste your time?
They’re not immigrants, at least in the long term sense. I don’t understand why you’re still confusing this with the “American Dream.” The American dream includes becoming a US Citizen, something these Visas have nothing to do with.
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p>And we’ve already been through the “they’re being exhausted in one day” argument: they’re being exhausted because many companies abuse the system, which prevents other companies from having the workers they need. If certain companies couldn’t abuse the process, maybe those visas wouldn’t be exhausted in one day. I’d like to see that happen before any quota levels are changed, higher or lower.
Out of 120,000 someodd applicants in 2007. I don’t have the stats for 2008 handy.
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p>How many of those applicants you think were garbage? 1% 2%? Gonna punish the rest for that?
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p>I’m all for reform but let’s not punish hard working, educated individuals who just want to work in America. If a Green Card were easy, they’d prob do that. Most H1B holders tend to be pursuing a green card, I mean why have to renew the visa every year and worry about sponsorship if you could get a green card more easily?
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p>The fact of the matter is that this objection to H1B’s is simple protectionism, under the flawed theory that there are only X jobs available for Y people so let’s reserve them for Americans. That’s what economists call incorrect.
I’m having a very hard time not giving you some three’s because you insist on quoting the same stuff without links or documentation. I’ve presented documentation in the form of a database that details every single h1b visa given out for the year 2005 — what corporations, positions, dollar amounts, etc. The vast majority of corporate recipients are not US corporations in dire need of skills. These are the positions that US citizens cannot apply for and are advertised at dollar amounts lower than what even an entry level grad would accept. Here’s a link to an economist site that calls the equation what is really is corporate citizen oxymoron about corporations and the free market run amok.
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p>Here’s another really good synopsis of the problem from an economist, Dr. Ron Hira, on Outsourcing America with an extremely valuable video interview. Don’t believe me that there’s a problem. Listen to what Dr. Hira says in a BUSINESS WEEK interview!
Not that I care in the slightest, just saying.
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p>You gave me a talk about outsourcing.. haven’t listened to it yet, don’t have multimedia on the workstation at the office and just got home, I will listen..
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p>But here’s the thing. If we don’t allow more H1B’s, couldn’t you consider that encouraging outsourcing? If a poorly skilled indian is what the company wants, they’ll find a way to get it. Pay them even less in India.. the internet works there too.
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p>As far as cites, I did cite the 2% unemployment in the IT field at one point and I stand by it.
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p>What else did I cite? I didn’t claim any data points in this thread besides that, I mean, my friend I was talking about does in fact exist. And your favored policy is to kick her out of the country — you wanna talk reform, I’m game. But we should take care of the people who are here for the right reasons and doing things the right way under the current system, she deserves an OPT extension until she can apply for an H1B next year, then she can extend that a few times while working on her green card.
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p>And no, I don’t have a cite for the 2007 H1B figures although I could scare one up easily enough, it’s what our lawyer told us when we were looking into sponsoring someone before we discovered he was totally incompetent. Anyways, 65,000 grnated every year, in 2007 according to that lawyer there were ~~120,000 applications and we all know that they ran out on the first day in the years 2006, 07, and 08. You disagreeing with any of those?
I’m basically disagreeing with all of the above. I think I’ve found the reason for where you are, so I’ll be providing some links about that as well. If you have visa figures that you can link to for anything beyond 2005, I can’t wait. I look forward to your research.
The H-1b visa-hiring program is a simple law. It allows employers to bypass qualified citizens and green card holders for white collar jobs in the US.
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p>This law is only applicable to employers. It governs their recruitment and hiring practices – their behavior. That’s why most employers have an interest in this law. It impacts the US workforce and citizens from abroad, but it does not regulate our behavior. This is an important distinction.
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p>Its analogous to chemical dumping. These regulations define corporate behavior, but they impact residents nonetheless.
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p>In a letter dated April 1, 2008 Senators Durbin and Grassley, who had introduced bipartisan legislation last year to prevent H-1B and L-1 Visa abuses, wrote to the top 25 recipients of H-1B visas in 2007, “Most companies can explicitly discriminate against American workers by recruiting and hiring only H-1B visa holders. As the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has said: “H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of a foreign worker.”
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p>Jay, are you serious when you support employer behavior that bypasses citizens and green card holders? I think not. But you seem to be willing to bypass experienced Americans, but force employers to adhere to equal employment opportunities for entry-level jobs.
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p>This is the slippery slope that we are on: chipping away EEO. Thanks to American laws, designed by American lobbyists, for American tech firms.
A good software developer is worth 10 mediocre ones, anyone in the industry will tell you this. Nobody’s gonna can an American in favor of an H1B person for like 20k less in salary, and if they are then they’re not gonna be in business long.
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p>Sometimes, you know, we can trust people to hire the best candidate. There’s as many jobs out there as there are good ideas and good developers to implement them. 2% unemployment in the IT field these days.
I’m extremely skeptical about a wild statement like this, with no facts.
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p>The fact is no American is worth 10x any foreigner who can do the job. Businesses are about profits. Even Non Profits are about sparing as much of their limited funds as possible, because grant money can dry up fast. Whoever can do the job, cheapest, is the one that’s going to be hired more often than not.
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p>Links upon links, with experts upon experts, and statistics upon statistics have been used on this site to rebut your line
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p>I don’t know why you keep repeating things like it, because we have infinite news reports and studies that have shown the contrary. It’s only true if you consider the fact that the “best candidate” is the cheapest applicant who can reasonably get the job done…. and even that may be stretching it.
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p>I wish!
And you’ll discover that a good one is indeed worth 10 mediocre ones, because they can see problems at design time and avoid them instead of requiring 10x the effort to fix them later, usually after things break and the company loses money over it.
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p>Just because you’ve painted every hiring manager with the same anti-corporate brush, they work for a corporation and hence must not only be evil, but stupid, well, I can’t fix that for you. I’d just say try working in the industry. Maybe you’ll learn something. Like the fact that smart people tend to be appreciated.
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p>I’m not advocating against the prevailing wage clause, I’m just saying give these people a chance to learn and earn and eventually become citizens. These are the people we want in this country. The sense of entitlement here is astounding, I’m American, therefore I want to make competition with me illegal. Gimme a break.
Good software developers will put out more than twice as much work as lousy ones, and it’ll be higher quality and require much less maintenance after. Maintenance is the killer in the software industry.
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p>You want a cite for all that stuff? Brooks, ‘The Mythical Man Month’. Was written in the 1970s about project management and is still required reading today, that’s how good it is. Those are all subjective points of course but they’re also conventional wisdom.
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p>That’s not what h1b visas will ever do, as currently constituted. You’re arguing against me, because you want your friend to become a citizen, by arguing in favor of a form of visa that doesn’t allow users to become citizens. Isn’t that at least a little absurd?
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p>I’m all with you on bringing in more American citizens to this country, loosening up restrictions to getting in, doing a whole host of things. I love the concept of the EU, especially in terms of personal freedom to move around, and would be ecstatic to try something like that with Canada and even Mexico. I also think anyone who works in this country for x amount of years (3? 4?), should be granted citizenship. But all of these questions are unfortunately outside the purview of h1b and other visas; thus, you’re not making efficient use of your time arguing for the right of your friend.
Let’s at least try to screw fewer people, eh? What’s your reasoning AGAINST extending these visas? They won’t fix everything overnight so don’t do it, ship those poor suckers home?
Which way is screwing more people?
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p>Lolorb has plenty of evidence to suggest that by not fixing the system, we’re screwing over far more people.
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p>You’ve pointed out your friend and how she’s screwed, but without the same kind of diligence to back up the fact that by creating more of these visas (or whatever you’re arguing for) would “screw fewer people.”
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p>One of the problems with your argument, actually, is the fact that it’s just not really coherent. Your friend is getting screwed. Apparently, 1 American developer = 15 from other countries, so there’s really nothing to worry about, but we need some serious changes! Well, what changes? And, how do we know those changes will lead to ‘fewer people being screwed?’
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p>I know your heart is in the right place, but there’s more than 300 million people living on this chunk of rock we call the continental US. People are bound to get screwed. I don’t like it, obviously you don’t either, but it’s going to happen. If we want it to happen as infrequently as possible, we need to have a clear and honest understanding of what’s going on and how to best fix it, thinking of all the angles and problems associated with it.
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p>Personally, it seems like the best way to “fix” the system – from lolorb and your perspective – is to make sure these companies who are abusing the system stop. If they did, we could then determine if there are enough visas already, if we need more, or if we even needed to place a limit on them at all. But you have to fix the system first.
Jay, again I will repeat: employers are good corporate citizens when they bypass local talent and recruit abroad for top dollar, white collar job openings in this country.
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p>I trust that employers are using this law as it is written. That’s why we, and Senator Durbin, are determined to re-write the law to require employers to seek local talent.
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p>But, Jay, you haven’t answered my question. Are you willing to have a law on the books that bypasses you? I assume you are under 50. And this law is impacting you and your generation. Much more than me.
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p>We Baby Boomers may be the only American generation that had the legal right to be considered for job openings in our own country. It was a cool ride; knowing that employers had to consider us – women, blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians.
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p>I want that ride for you.
And it’s lead to a conversation that is all over the place. You tackle much too much with this post. The immigration system is broken, period.
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p>And it’s partly broken because of all these half-assed measures that people like Sen. Kerry try to get approved to support their local constitutients, resulting in the “alphabet-soup” of visas which you described.
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p>To start using part of that broken immigration system to start arguing, essentially, that migrants take U.S. citizen jobs, does pander to anti-migrant side. That argument is a very difficult one to make and the research on it is all over the place. You see, while an H1-B visa holder might theoretically “take” a job from a U.S. citizen, it says nothing about what they contribute to the U.S. economy in the form of their own consumption, the own taxes they pay, and so much else.
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p>I think you’re heart is in the right place. Giving migrants a path to citizenship and hopefully the same basic rights afforded to U.S. citizens would do so much for working people in the U.S. But don’t pick out H1-B’s and start making the argument that migrants are taking U.S. citizen jobs.
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p>I’ll leave you with this article about Jamaican H1-B visa holders in Cape Cod. Who would fill these seasonal jobs if it weren’t for the H1-B visa holders? There’s only so many kids willing to spend a summer bumming around and making money in Cape Cod.
for your feedback. You are right, this is a complex issue about a broken system that gets ignored because people falsely think that anyone who speaks up is anti-immigrant. That is just simply not true and it’s what lobbyists and the MSM have spent years working on to lull the public and our representatives into thinking. One can only hope that our elected officials will begin to see the entire picture, which is what I’ve been trying to give you.
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p>Precisely what is happening. The facts are clearly spelled out on this issue by none other than the Department of Labor (as I posted):
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p>and by Senators Grassley and Durbin in their bipartisan legislative proposal to fix the loopholes that allow corporations to BYPASS US workers and to ignore prevailing wages:
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p>”Of greatest concern is that the limited number of visas are being used to outsource American jobs, instead of bringing in educated and skilled professionals to work for U.S. businesses.”
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p>This is exactly what has been happening for years since the inception of the H1B program, with the precise and stated purpose of lowering US wages. The vast majority of people on visas do not stay in this country. Almost half the visas ever issued were given to non-US based corporations. The top five recipients of H1B visas are Indian body shops. Of the 119,000 visa requests from bodyshop Wipro in one year, only 69 green card applications were received. These are non-immigrant visas being used to supplant US citizens in jobs in their own country.
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p>The issues at stake here for citizens, green card holders and H1B’s:
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p>As I’ve posted numerous times, don’t just believe me. Listen to the video links I’ve presented from PhD’s at Harvard and Duke, read the study by Dr. Matlof at UC-Davis, go to anyone of the sites I’ve linked to. I’m not anti-immigrant. I’m for civil rights and equal opporutunity for all. Which is where our Senators, Representatives and Governor should be as well. The US is being sold to the lowest corporate bidder with a healthy assist by those who we elected. It’s a fact.
workers fall under an entirely different category of visas, not to be confused in any way with H1B’s, J1’s, OPT or L1’s. I am in no way addressing issues relating to seasonal workers.
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p>I spent a lot of time learning from a wonderful woman named Barb, who passed away this year. She was an incredibly bright and curious woman who instilled in me one lifelong goal: An Informed Public. Bless her soul.
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p>In many instances, visa holders are exempted from paying US taxes and paying into medicare or social security.
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p>L1 visa holders are essentially employees of non-US corporations and are paid wages based on their resident country currencies and employment standards and are forced to participate in the US economy by having to pay US prices for food, housing and transportation without the benefit of earning US prevailing wages. These visa holders are probably the biggest losers of all because in many instances, they get paid a fraction of US wages, have little hope for staying in this country as immigrants and have none of the protections that they should be entitled to for working in this country. That is just not right.
I am finished with Sir John.
During the 2004 campaign he pounded home the theme that we should not be furnishing tax breaks to corporations in return for them offshoring jobs.
Great theme.
Problem is 4 years later and he has not done one frigging thing to close that loophole.
When you try asking him why he hasnt so much as hinted at introducing any such legislation you get shunted to the side.
No problem in not answering the questions that dont get asked, huh John?
Now this travesty.
Thanks Lolorb, for remembering the h1b battle. Sometimes it can feel like an awfully lonely place, but we do have friends.
In the senate they are Durbin (D) and Grassley (R).
Bipartison and not elitist driven.
Kerry can burn in flames IMO
No, I haven’t forgotten. I did have to spend months doing research to get the whole picture. The good news is that study after study is now coming out to back up the arguments against the insanity: Sloan, Urban Institute, Professor Wadwha, Professor Hira, Dr. Matlof, etc. There is finally sufficient evidence to prove the facts that most people know to be true from working in these corporations. It’s all finally coming together with websites and organizations getting the truth out. David Sirota’s new book is on the way to the best seller list. Unfortunately, the MSM has been so successful in spreading bogus data that even people here are reluctant to accept the facts. The only thing we can do is keep pointing to the studies and hope that people begin to pay attention. It takes a lot of effort and time. This is certainly not a partisan issue. It’s all about corporations controlling our government and politicians allowing them to do so. Thank Grassley and Durbin for being there for citizens!
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p>Since I paid scant attention to Kerry’s presidential bid, I didn’t realize that he had expounded on the evils of furnishing tax breaks to corporations in return for them offshoring jobs. Seems he’s changed his mind on that as well. Maybe Senator Kennedy and Deval will start reading the studies and stand up for their constituents and the visa holders who are being used and abused.
article that pretty much sums up why H1B’s are bad for everyone. If you don’t read anything else, this article on “The Other Cost of Outsourcing H1B Visa Holders: Beneficiaries or Victims?” from the WashTech website illustrates how bad things are for visa holders as well. My plea to you is to view this issue as one about civil rights for all.
Employers give or award jobs – no one can “take” a job, period. If this were true, every American and every foreigner would go out and take a job!
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p>Now let’s get real. Employers have every legal right to never consider local talent for their local, ie, US job openings via all white collar guest worker programs.
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p>FYI, Indians do have the constitutional right to “take” a job. Both boys and girls have the right to take their father’s job when the father dies. This is a tremendous right that Indians are justly proud of.
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p>So as soon as you talk about foreigners “taking” jobs, you must mean India.
are so important, aren’t they? I understand what you are saying: This is not an issue about the workers at all, they can’t “take” a job. It’s about the employers and their rights under the current assinine laws to do whatever they want. No prevailing wage checks, no civil rights for indentured servants, no possibility of the desired green card. It’s all up to them, and there are no checks and balances or any incentive to do what’s right for the workers. I didn’t realize that India’s constitution allowed children to “take” a parent’s job. Wow. Even their culture is one that wouldn’t allow the abuses occurring in the US.
Maybe I live in some small isolated bubble but to me, what you just said IS the problem … that employers have every LEGAL right to never CONSIDER local talent.
Thats where I start to steam … how can that concept be the norm in a society where legislators were put into their positions of power supposedly to represent the interests of the American people.
Maybe I am wrong, but IMO all societies have some aspect of protectionism. Here we seem to have the opposite.
Isnt anarchy preferable to a system where annointed powers give away all opportunity to competing nations who, unlike us, are acting in the competative interest of their citizens.