I can’t support the Senator without some indication that he is willing to change his position. As a MA delegate, I’m thinking about just staying home. I used to think Senator Kerry was the lesser of two evils. I’m not so sure any longer.
Below is a sampling of sites that document the misperceptions on H1B’s and detail the reality. I don’t understand how the Senator could not be aware of the systematic destruction of jobs and the lives of those in the tech and science fields. How can a Democrat not get it? I would really appreciate an answer.
Deval, Barack, Edwards and Clinton are on the same page. Deval joined eleven other governors in requesting further abuses and hardships for his constituents. The lobbyists have done their jobs well. The meme (as perpetuated by Bill Gates and Larry Ellison of Oracle in Congressional testimony) is that there is a crisis in finding sufficient technical skills in this country. The sky is falling and their respective corporations have to pay too much to US workers! My suggestion to Bill and Larry is to hire these two US citizens as they seem to know quite a bit about technology.
The dot com bubble burst and left a staggering number of H1B visa holders in this country competing with US employees for vanishing jobs. But, the H1B visa holders are cheaper. So, the end result is this from a former research chemist:
So much has been said of the computer specialists, but scant attention is being paid to the pharmaceutical, biotech and chemical industries. My career as a research chemist has been totally destroyed because of both the H1-B program and job outsourcing to China and India. I know, I have always been the one to train these ‘highly qualified’ chemists. It’s not just the low salary and benefits (not even a 401K!) that is the reason these people are hired, but also because they will NOT speak up in their defense. By extension, these circumstances will apply to any American citizen that works in the lab. I have had several people, even in HR at large pharmaceutical companies tell me that science careers are “immigrant jobs”. After years of complaining and protesting against these circumstances (and making myself a target as a result), and then having the full impact of knowing that I was actually making LESS than a high school teacher after nearly 15 years of experience (with a Masters in both organic chemistry and and MBA), I have decided to simply give up and do the most sane thing I can. I am becoming a high school chemistry teacher. The salary is almost the same, the working conditions are better, and at the end of the day, I can feel reassured that I did not work my ass off just to make some conceited prick in top management more wealthly than he needs to be. And, to top it off, one has to be an AMERICAN CITIZEN to be a public school teacher! From what I hear the dean’s of various teaching programs around NY and NJ, their is a flood of American scientists going into education. It’s such a shame, because how on earth are we going to get kids interested in math and science when the end result is that they won’t have a job if they pursue such a career in the first place. This is first and foremost a national security issue. It must be addressed because science is the future.
Similar harm statements are being ignored. Don’t think your field is safe. It’s just a matter of time before you too will be competing for jobs that pay a fraction of what you are making, and don’t expect your elected officials to care.
If you are curious as to which corporations are getting visas, salary erosion and what careers are being wiped out, check out 2005 recipients in MA.
Dr. Norman Matloff of UC Davis has documented the problems and solutions for Fixing our Badly Broken H-1B Visa and Employer-Sponsored Green Card Programs.
Senators Grassley and Durbin findings on H1B fraud and abuse. BTW, Senator Kerry wasn’t even familiar with this legislation when questioned.
The Programmers Guild also provides extensive documentation.
The Center for Immigration Studies
describes The Bottom of the Pay Scale.
One of my friends suggested that H1B sounds like a deadly virus. I agree. Are we being distracted by primaries and elections while corporate lobbyists are winning the battle? Are there any civil rights protections in place for those who are being brought into this country in indentured servitude? Why should I vote for a Democrat or Republican who has sold out this country? This inquiring mind would like to know.
I’m applying to jobs in NYC right now, in the space of 2 weeks I’ve got about 7 interested companies so far.
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p>There’s not shortage of tech jobs for qualified people in this country, however there is a shortage of qualified people to do the work. We can bring people into the country, have them work like every other honest American, contribute to the dazzling productivity gains we’ve seen and raise their kids here… or we can let them do all that in their home country while we don’t get to have anything to do with it.
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p>Plenty of jobs available for tech people who don’t suck.. and the H1-B’s run out on the day they’re allocated every single year. This is America, for crying out loud, we’re supposed to be the place where all the smart people go. Now we’re putting up a wall, “Nope, we don’t want any more smart people this year, maybe next year if you do well in the lottery”. Is that a joke?
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p>Also, H1B has an income floor of 50k plus it costs another 5k or so to file, ok I get that that’s cheaper than lots of Americans in high tech jobs work for however it’s not like they’re bussing in Mexican cabbage pickers to take your job for pennies. You can be twice-10x as good as the average H1B, just do a good job and don’t expect artificially constrained labor supply to stop you. It’s not like it’s much different with them in India or whatever with the internet.
for providing some indication as to what the erroneous beliefs might be behind this insanity. All of the links I provided dispute what you say. Did you bother to read them? Those people posting harm statements have experienced job loss (I’ve seen it many times), and people are leaving or not choosing the technical professions because of a rapid decline in wages and job availability. So glad to know you’re so talented and that others should just suffer in silence.
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p>Your statements are incorrect and unsubstantiated. Links please.
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p>There is no H1B income “floor”. If you go to the this link containing approved applications for 2005 in MA, you can see that some wages are far below that amount. Some examples from InfoSys (one of the most egregious abusers of the system and not even a MA corporation):
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p>It does cost employers 5k or so to apply, but it can cost the visa applicants far more than that to even get an opportunity to apply. There’s an entire new industry (desi consultants) devoted to charging visa applicants exhorbitant sums to polish (ahem) resumes and get them opportunities that are otherwise not available in their home countries. Think of Mexicans paying any amount to die in trucks crossing the border. The H1B visa industry is only slightly less corrupt and harmful to the holders. Here’s a link to one visa applicant’s take on the situation.
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p>Here’s another link on the desi consultant concept and what it means to those who seek to be in this country. I’m neither anti immigration nor anti H1B visa holder (which seems to be the Republican meme). I think immigrants should have opportunities and civil rights that are consistent with US standards. That is not currently the case.
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p>The H1B visa is supposed to provide skills unavailabe in this country. Ha! If you look at the salaries above, they are less than entry level wages (a majority of what is being applied for). How many Cambridge based IT professionals do you know other than visa holders who would think the above salaries are livable, working wages? A vast majority of approved H1B’s are for entry levels. This means that US grads are in competition with a couple hundred thousand entry level H1B visa holders who are willing to accept less and not complain to be trained for the very same things US grads are already qualified to do.
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p>So, you are denigrating those people who have lost their jobs to visa holders who work for half the amount? They must really suck. The reason the H1B’s run out on the day they’re allocated is because of the fraud, abuse and complete lack of oversight. There are no controls or regulations.
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p>I would suggest reading a little more on the issue before making the same types of baseless statements that are coming from heavily lobbied politicians.
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If people are hiring people on H1B’s and paying less than that, then they’re breaking the law as far as I know.. at least what I was told when we were looking into sponsoring someone for H1B.
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p>And yes, there is a shortage of talented and skilled programmers right now. Kids straight out of a decent college with a CS degree command 60k at Boston firms and have their pick of offers, aside from the depths of the bust in 02-03 that’s been the case for quite some time.
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p>Basically, the situation is that we’re the USA and we have > 100,000 highly educated foreigners banging on our doors to work here every year. You’d rather tell them “No just stay in your home country and work there, don’t contribute to our industry” and I’d rather say “Hell yeah, we are the US freakin A, if you come in with an advanced degree in a technical field you are good by us”.
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p>I mean, seriously, we have enough demand that they’re running out the day they’re allocated, if you wanna call fraud then ok, let’s clean up any fraud we can. Let’s clean up the indentured servitude indian shops that sponsor H1B’s and run the kids like slaves while we’re at it. But as a matter of principle, the US is not the country that says “We won’t import skilled foreigners because our domestic workforce fears competition” — we’re the country that says “Come on in and build something”
If you are going to argue that there is a shortage or that there are regulations, please give me some evidence. I’ve already provided detailed evidence to the contrary. Your say so isn’t sufficient. Did you bother reading Dr. Matloff’s study? Do you even understand the constructs of the H1B program? Since you obviously don’t want to bother reading, here are Matloff’s bullet points:
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1) As far as a labor shortage, it’s clearly true, American kids don’t major in Math or Science in very large numbers and these industries are seeing double digit growth. Most tech companies continually keep job postings open because when they run into someone who’s a good fit for their company, they automatically hire them under the Bill Belichik “draft for quality, not for need” theory. I’m too lazy to get you a link right now but just look at the list of job openings for IT people on any job board out there, there is no shortage of open jobs. I dunno if shortage is the correct word to apply, when the problem is excessive growth of demand for programmers rather than a sudden restriction in supply but still, we gotta feed that demand or our tech sector will not be performing to the degree it should be.
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p>2) As far as H1B’s being the best and brightest.. most aren’t near as good as American programmers but they’re among the best and brightest from their countries, just not from a culture of excellent programmers who invented this stuff — I’d say the lobbyists were fudging a little there but it’s beside the point, there’s enough tech companies hiring that many will take a subpar candidate assuming they can learn. It takes sponsorship to apply, after all.
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p>3) Importation of cheap(er) labor? Sure. It’s a growth industry and needs more labor, the idea of restricting the labor supply and giving me an ever-increasing salary simply because nobody else is in the field isn’t sound economics
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p>4, 5, 6) I’m fine with eliminating any and all loopholes in the prevailing wage requirement, as I said before I didn’t even know there were any
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p>7) H1B != green card, it simply allows you to work while you’re applying for a green card and waiting for a bunch of years. Moreover, it makes you the bitch of the company you’re working for as they can send you home at any time, you can’t apply for a better job, etc until you have your GC.
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p>8) I’m for giving any program an overhaul at any time, and the H1B is clearly in need of one — let’s cut a deal, fix the loopholes in the prevailing wage requirement and double the amount we can bring in a year? The jobs are here, for sure.
that you are so invested in responding. Unfortunately, you haven’t done your homework.
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p>I will gladly refute most of your assumptions with facts. Unfortunately, I have a client who needs some help at the moment, and work comes first. I’ll get back to you.
That the market for technology jobs is stagnant or contracting in relation to the number of qualified (important word) Americans.
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p>Impossible to prove one way or the other, of course, however I’m just plain adamantly against putting up barriers to immigration in order to protect jobs. Limits for an orderly influx? Sure. But not a limit that gets filled in a single day, that’s too low, and as I’ve said, Americans who are willing to work hard and keep current don’t have trouble finding jobs. I’m in the thick of it right now.
Duke University study. GAO. DOL. The facts don’t support the argument.
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you’ve been making link-free, citation-free statements here… and you look forward to lolorb’s evidence???
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p>huh.
Are that there are a ton of technology job openings right now, the sector is growing at a rapid pace and that the H1B visa yearly allotment has been exhausted in a single day in the past 3 years.
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p>I’ve also stated that there aren’t a fixed number of technology jobs to divide between X people, but that it’s a growth market that expands the more smart people you put into it. That’s a commonly accepted opinion, dunno if I’d call it a fact.
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p>Besides that it’s all opinion — My understanding is that lolorb wants to restrict the number of people coming into the country (and throw some out who are already here on other visas and need H1B to stay) to drive up wages for those who are already here, and I disagree.
you claim to have a valid perspective without being able to refute my research. You have misrepresented my points and taken much out of context. Are you by any chance affiliated with the media?
I’m a black helicopter pilot 😉 Come on lolorb, I met you at Lynne’s party.
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p>Your point seems to be that you want to restrict the # of H1B visas or at least keep them flat, what am I misrepresenting there?
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p>I haven’t seen any ‘research’ that I consider germane to the point, I laid out the 2 facts that I consider relevant in the previous post.
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p>Like I said, I’m fine with closing loopholes in the prevailing wage clause, that’s good policy. I think that it’s an important aspect of H1B to prevent senior foreigners from locking out entry level Americans, that’s short term gain for long term pain.
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p>Aside from that, the America I know doesn’t say “Nope, you can’t stay” to people who already have a job and an employer willing to plunk down 5k to the govt and counsel to keep them here while paying them at least 50k in salary.
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p>She’s saying there’s a problem that needs to be addressed. She’s saying that in some of these affected fields, it’s making citizens either lose jobs or be forced to take wages that aren’t worthy of the position and hard work going into it. That’s very different from depressing the number of visas going out.
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p>Personally, I think the clear solution is to tie wages earned by people who get H1B visas to the wages their American counterparts are earning, thus ensuring that the H1B visas are going out based aren’t a means to the cheapest available labor for the position. It would also address the problem of companies taking on people who aren’t as skilled, which effects consumers, because suddenly companies would be driven by meritocracy, not cheap labor. Furthermore, it would insure that the visas are going to the fields who are in most need of high skilled workers – because I’m sure there are some fields that there truly aren’t enough workers in the US, while in others there are too many.
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p>Jay, you have to make sure to address the point of H1B visas. It’s not to increase immigration, but to make sure there’s enough skilled workers in the US. If there are too many skilled workers, then H1B visas are no longer relevant. I doubt that would be the case, but that doesn’t mean the system needs to be reformed. Reforming it by placing immigrants on the same pay scale – and footing – as citizens makes a lot of sense, both for Americans and for immigrants (who ought to be earning the same salary). In fact, Lolorb could very well turn this into civil rights diary.
Tying them to their counterparts is good but tricky in practice, ideally someone could brainstorm something that achieved that while being a simpler system than a bunch of ridiculous designations for every technical specialty in a book, then companies will just designate everybody a ‘lowest paid programmer I’ and avoid it.
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p>And regarding this: H1B visas. It’s not to increase immigration, but to make sure there’s enough skilled workers in the US. If there are too many skilled workers, then H1B visas are no longer relevant.
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p>The fundamental point I’m trying to hammer home here is that in the present economy as well as most economies, you can’t possibly have too many skilled workers. There’s enough roles for them as there are decent ideas to work on, as long as enough ideas work out to be a net gain, which they do. So part of the reason I got perhaps a little too annoyed was my firm belief that you fundamentally can’t have enough skilled workers, the only thing you need to watch is displacing your recent graduates and not developing them, which isn’t happening as far as I can see. I’m certainly for closing loopholes and even raising that prevailing wage clause in the present, probably indexing it to inflation would be the most foolproof system going forward. I just don’t like any whiffs I get of protectionism for the highest paid sectors while doing it.. America’s always been the recipient of brain drain, we should stay that way.
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p>Of course you can. I remember taking a seminar on immigration a few years ago. One of our guest speakers came in to talk about how our immigration policies are effecting other countries. In many cases, because we and other westernized democracies want so many of these high skilled workers, we’re robbing their own countries of people they desperately need. Case in point: nurses. That’s just one instance where we can bring in “too many.”
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p>Another case is when the supply is greater than the demand. I’m sorry, but Lolorb has brought up study after study, link after link, showing that in many cases there are already too many high skilled people for the jobs that are available. I doubt this is in every single field, but certainly many. The purpose of H1B is not to fill jobs that would otherwise be unfilled, or filled by people who are not qualified to hold the position. If there’s more than enough qualified people to go around, then obviously there’s a problem.
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p>As you brought up, we run out of visas to give out every year. What does that mean? Many sectors of this economy who really could use the extra foreign labor probably can’t get it, because a some companies have worked the system to get cheaper workers. The byproduct of that is not only are citizens unemployed, underemployed or not earning what they should, but often the people who have visas aren’t even as qualified as the people we have here – which has direct consequences for consumers across this country.
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p>Obviously, there’s a better way. It took me all of about 2 minutes to come up with the idea of “hey, let’s tie visa salaries to their American counterparts.” Fortunately, it’s not my job to come up with the specifics of a solution, but if I could think up something that, in principal, could fix it, then I’m sure we can expect our paid professionals in DC who we elect every 2 and 6 years to come up with something. It’s their job. That’s why we put them there in the first place. John Kerry ought to listen to Lolorb and realize there’s a problem, then do something about it.
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p>I meant to say the purpose of H1B is not to increase immigration (they’re temporary visas, after all), but to fill jobs that would otherwise be unfilled.
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p>If people want to become permanent US citizens and are highly trained, more power to them, but that’s a different process than gaining an H1B visa. I’m the type of person who prefers open borders and bringing in as many people as possible, but we have to make sure that it isn’t just a way to deflate wages for companies in America. That’s bad for Americans and, as I’ve said, that’s bad for the people who want visas: they shouldn’t be held hostage just for the offer of coming to this country for a few years; when they’re here, they deserve the same pay as American citizens are getting too. Thus, if we let it, the problem can fix itself. But that takes a little political courage.
Once someone’s got residency here and a steady job they’re probably gonna look into staying here. But I agree that their core purpose isn’t to increase immigration, however I think it should be when it comes to skilled workers 🙂 Us taking smart people from the rest of the world means our economy will continue to outperform other countries in technology. And considering that the visas are all gone in the first day every year, the cap could prob use lifting.
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p>But all that aside — WOW how about the speeches from Obama and McCain tonight.. McCain’s literally blew me away with how bad it was, “A Leader We Can Believe In?” Are you kidding me? What kind of leader rips of 4 of the 6 words in his slogan from his 30year junior rival.
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p>Companies go with the easiest, cheapest solution. That does not mean this is best for our country. If companies need highly skilled workers, then there are two approaches:
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p>1) Train our citizens.
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p>2) Hire from other countries that have already trained their citizens.
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p>Companies here are trying for the best of both worlds. They want to cut taxes that support education. They also don’t want to invest in training on their own. They don’t want to take the risk of hiring someone who is simply smart, who could possibly do the job, and then let them grow into a position.
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p>Instead, they want to hire someone from another country, someone who is very responsive because they are on a short leash — if you lose your H1-B visa job, you go back to your original country. That is an effective “punishment” for most people here on such a visa.
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p>I would rather see these “best and brightest” given citizenship than to have them on H1-B visas, because once they are citizens, they have the same rights as US-born workers. They don’t have to worry about losing their job and being sent back home. They have the ability to look for a better job if they don’t like the pay or conditions of their current job. And they will invest themselves in this country, they will have some kids who will eventually live the American dream.
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p>This “guest worker” program only serves businesses, not our country, its citizens, or the majority of its economy. It is just another step on the race-to-the-bottom pursuit of “cheap labor”.
is if we’re making it so easy for people to get visas and come here, thereby making it harder for educated Americans to get jobs, where else are we supposed to earn a decent living? My friend’s looking at switching from being a bio-chemist to becoming a science teacher herself, because the pay just isn’t that great. There are people with PhDs in her building, with years of experience, earning less than teachers, which is nothing to brag about… thus why so many make that transition.
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p>We’re losing industrial and service-sector jobs to foreign countries every day, by the thousands. People have kept saying that American’s economy is going to be powered by information, but if we can’t provide qualified people with those jobs, obviously we need to go back to the drawing board.
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p>Actually, that’s a common theme for America: the need to go back to the drawing board. I’m in general agreement with you – there are people who want to come to this country and should be able to. I’m also against trying to deport long-term American residents from this country. But I have to think we can have an immigration policy that allows us to have our cake and eat it too. It may mean challenging the big corporations, creating policies that encourage job growth. It may mean difficult decisions. But clearly, at the base, we need to try something new.
The sense of entitlement. “Hey I had a job doing technology at one point, therefore I am entitled to a high salary forever with zero obligation on me to keep my skills current or be valuable to my employer”
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p>Like, what? Personal tech story, I absolutely BOMBED the first two interviews I had when I started searching for a job a few weeks ago, I went through a little mini-cycle of blaming the “stupid, irrelevant questions” to realizing that I’d actually slipped a little over the last couple years (lots of routine work), to buying a couple books and plowing through them in consecutive weekends. Now I’m acing every interview.. it’s really that easy, anybody with a CS degree and a grounding in fundamentals can catch up to the latest technology and blow the rote learning H1B people out of the water, we are not oppressed here.
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p>On a Macro level, technology is what makes America the leader of the global economy. Every other country’s economy is seeing growth from technology that we lead in. Given that we have all these people wanting to come here and contribute, are we really going to tell them “Nah, we’d rather protect the weakest members of our workforce, go build a competing technology center in your home country”? We should continue to lead in technology and constantly bringing in fresh people is the way to do it.
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p>It’s a fallacy to think that there’s only X jobs available to be divided by Y people — it’s a growth industry, there are as many jobs as there are good ideas.
Did you really link to a couple high-school dropout script kiddies as an attempted sob story?
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p>I mean, I’m glad they hax0red Comcast as they would describe it, it’s fairly funny although prob not worth the consequences for them. But it’s A) not indicative of any development skill whatsoever and B) What, these guys are your sob story? 18yo criminal high school dropout doesn’t have a 6-figure development job, we need to stop immigration?
Two kids took over Comcast, and they even called Comcast first! If excellence is the goal, I think Comcast has a lot of explaining to do. I said nothing about stopping immigration, and you seem to want to twist my stance to one that is anti-immigration. That is in all probability exactly what the lobbyists are using on Dems. It is a strawman. Please stop.
But your stance is quite precisely anti-immigration — if you’re against raising the cap when it is being exhausted on 1/365 days every year, how else could you characterize it?
Great post, lolorb.
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p>In my one experience working alongside H-1B holders, they were hired, not because the company couldn’t find qualified American workers, but because the company wanted cheaper labor. They could hire multiple H-1B holders for the price of one American worker.
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p>I also believe the use of H-1Bs leads to poorer, less reliable software. The H-1B programmers I interacted with had very shallow technical knowledge, the result of an education founded on rote memorization (like MCAS). They technically knew how to program but lacked any kind of deeper understanding of what makes for quality software design. With an increasing portion of our daily lives dependent on software systems, degrading the quality of software makes me nervous.
This is an issue that is invisible to many because the media doesn’t cover it, and the people who suffer the most are not in a position to publicize the abuses (either H1B holders or those who are replaced). If you’re going to have fear and be nervous, at least make sure you know that there’s a good reason to be. This would be a good reason. I must reiterate that this should not be an issue just about immigrants. It’s about our government being corrupted by corporate interests willing to push the limits of regulation. Since there are no regulations, it’s an open invitation for abuse. I will only vote for Democrats who have a clue on this one.
And would note that anybody who can’t compete with these H1B’s and be worth at least 2 of them to their employer, well, they need to either brush up on their skills or find a smarter employer who understands the value of good developers.
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p>In the meantime, the ones who come over with lousy development skills will find work, usually people who hold their nose and hire them because they can’t find anyone with better skills, and they’ll learn, improve, become better developers and that’s one more solid American developer in the system. Raising their kids here, teaching the values of hard work, etc. Long-term, it’s a win. Short-term, you only lose if you’ve been sitting in a cube not doing much of anything for the last 5 years and your skills have atrophied.
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p>I mean, we’re talking 65,000 H1Bs alloted each year period, and they all get taken up on the first day. Clearly the economy can handle more of them — I’m fine with some limit each year just to keep the influx reasonable but we should not be telling people who want to work in technical fields “go away, compete with us from india” — we should be saying “join the party”
because the goal is not to find American workers. The goals were clearly stated here by Senator Grassley in 2007, who sponsored legislation with Senator Durbin to stop the abuses:
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p>The numbers you are using are incorrect. There is far more complexity to this story, and the 65,000 number is inaccurate (without even getting into the topic of L-1’s and J-1’s). I can’t help but feel that you are quoting the MSM rather than doing your own research. I’m not a fan of Lou Dobb’s immigration stance, but his facts are correct:
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of the way the system is being abused. This is actually a taped instructional session on how to not hire qualified American workers. It can’t get much clearer.
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If the prevailing wage is cleaned up, close loopholes and index it to inflation then I don’t see an issue here, smart companies will go with the better worker rather than minimal salary savings.
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p>And if you’re not the better worker? Well, this is capitalism after all.. companies who are penny-wise and pound-foolish will wind up with shoddy software that costs a fortune to maintain, and workers with good skills will find employment. Workers with lousy skills can either improve themselves to industry standards or find a new industry, I don’t see why the weakest workers should be protected by constraining supply.
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p>Like I said, go search for developer positions on any job board, there are plenty of jobs to go around.
what about the jobs on the job boards that are not for real as shown in the above video? The loopholes need to be fixed. There needs to be oversight, and there are already sufficient numbers of visas granted to take care of any and all perceived shortages. That means that being reactive to corporate demands and increasing the numbers is ridiculous without addressing the underlying problems.
there are already sufficient numbers of visas granted to take care of any and all perceived shortages
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p>The Visas are exhausted in ONE DAY the last few years running. That means every single one of those people already had a job, had sponsorship, and still had to enter a lottery for permission to stay here.
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p>I mean, by any measure, there are not sufficient visas, people are having to leave their jobs and go back to their home country because they didn’t win in the lottery visa. You want to talk reforms, I’m game, but you want to talk not letting good people into the country, I’m against that.
If you deduct the number of applications for corporations not even based in this country and the filers who do not meet the supposed “highly skilled” criteria and actually require the salary amounts to be equivalent to prevailing wage, there would be absolutely no need to increase the numbers because corporations would not be applying for visas in anywhere near the same numbers. It’s very simple. Stop the abuse and watch the filings disappear. The free for all of the lottery is antithetical to the original stated purpose of H1B’s. I am extremely sympathetic to the workers who really should be receiving visas and who do want to stay in this country. The problem is that the insanity of the current system is actually a deterrent to the stated objectives. I have some very good friends who came here on visas. They don’t disagree me. The system is broken and fraught with problems for all concerned.
teh evil corporationz or hard working immigrants via sob stories about those who can’t compete with a third world education, let’s get to solutions.
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p>your proposals:
A) Companies not based in the US? What’s that matter? The job’s in the US, if AIRBUS wants to employ engineers here then good for them and us
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p>B) “Highly skilled” criteria, sure we can change the definition of this if you want but my general principle is if someone has employment in the US and the employer wants to sponsor them, they should be able to stay, period.
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p>C) I actually agree with you regarding the prevailing wage, loopholes should be closed and it should be indexed to inflation so it doesn’t become pointless in a few years. The prevailing wage requirement prevents companies from hiring senior foreigners at the expense of entry-level Americans, which makes sense in the micro/short-term but kills us in the macro/long-term.
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p>Agreed? 🙂
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p>Lastly, I really doubt that fixing the prevailing wage by itself would eliminate our problems with the cap — more than twice the cap applied last year, there’s no way half of those people are employed under the prevailing wage via loophole. It’s possible, of course, but I really doubt it.
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p>RE: a system to give those who are more highly skilled higher priority, I’m all for it but don’t really see how it could be implemented in a way that wasn’t very quickly anachronistic, burdensome and quite possibly a barrier to actually getting the more highly skilled priority vs those who meet a silly out-of-date checklist
corporations. I’m bashing our elected Democrats for falling prey to lobbyists with agendas that are harmful to H1B visas holders and their US constituents all at the same time.
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p>(A) The main beneficiaries of H1B visa largesse are outsourcing firms InfoSys, Wipro, Congnizant, TaTa, Patni, etc. Their objectives are not in line with the rationale for creating the H1B visa program in the first place. They want their people to gain knowledge and advance outsourcing practices. Not what visas are supposed to be for according to even your perspective and certainly not conduscive to the goals of making this country more technologically advanced. In fact, I’ve presented documentation that abuses have the exact opposite effect.
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p>(B) Highly skilled, under any defition, probably does not include the modeling profession (for which H1B visas have been granted). No offense to the modeling industry.
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p>(C) Legislation has already been drafted by Senators Grassley and Durbin that addresses loopholes. I support it. Senator Kerry’s office knows about it but that hasn’t changed the Senator’s mind about increasing the problems before enacting legislation to stop the abuse.
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p>I suggest you go back and listen to some of the videos I’ve posted. All of your concerns have been addressed with facts and proposed solutions. And, the 65,000 number is bogus. There are enough exceptions and loopholes that the number is double or triple already. An increase might be enough to be fatal to the advancement of the technology industry in this country.
As far as what should be done (although I don’t care if it’s done before, after or concurrently with raising the cap and def think the cap needs raising)
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p>A) The job’s still in the US. Are you gonna suggest legislating it so “no companies with a base of operations in india can sponsor H1B’s”? Or “no companies with jobs whose description I don’t like can sponsor H1B’s”? It’s a global economy now. I can’t watch youtube at work (although I’m clearly slacking, hey, I’m on the way out the door), but I’ll watch those later.
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p>But like “they want their people to gain knowledge and increase outsourcing practices”? So? “Gain knowledge”? These companies want to have people in the US to better coordinate their operations overseas with US business, it’s a legitimate job. If you have a problem with outsourcing, attack outsourcing, not the people who the company is employing in the US. And blasting 99% of companies who’s business isn’t primarily outsourcing while aiming for them.
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p>B) Assuming the prevailing wage is cleaned up WRT loopholes, I’d say anyone getting paid 50k + inflation is by definition “skilled”, otherwise why not replace them with an American for minimum wage? I mean as far as modeling goes maybe you have to have a liberal definition of skilled but it’s still a job with a small subset of people capable of doing it, same as skilled as far as economics go.
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p>Lastly, fatal to the technology industry in this country? Keeping it flat is constraining for the technology industry, but not nearly fatal.. Increasing it would IMO be a minor plus to the tech industry. The core of the tech industry is way bigger than this program, a nuclear bomb wouldn’t be fatal to the tech industry at this point, we are the tech center of the world. I say, keep bringing people in, training them in modern development and expanding the base of developers. There is no shortage of good ideas that need work or VC money to go around, companies are getting money thrown at them as soon as they show small profit and a hint of scalability, I mean, do you even work in tech? No offense intended, but that is the least accurate thing I’ve heard recently.
and you have yet to provide anything substantial to back up your arguments, much to my amazement. Try going back and reading the comments on the Programmers Guild site or the harm statements and tell me again the basis for your disagreement. I’ve spent my life working in the tech business. I have had friends and coworkers throw their hands up in disgust and leave the industry. One highly skilled tech specialist is running a chain of Subways. One opened a small business because he couldn’t find a job as a research chemist. One of the most brilliant financial services technical managers I’ve ever met just lost his home to foreclosure. He looked for a job for over four years. Talk about waste of talent. Don’t tell me that these people suck. That is flatly false and horribly incensitive to their plight. I’ve watched employees sign agreements to train H1B workers with little or no comprehension or skills required to do the job just to get their severence benefits. The stories abound. I was at one point replaced by three people (one an H1B and two in India). I’ve seen the resumes. I’ve seen the skill sets. I’ve had to train people. Professionals with stellar resumes are being replaced by those without sufficient skill sets to do the job all in the name of corporate profits. It’s happening everywhere. Don’t believe me. Go read for yourself. I’m not making shit up. I can’t help but think that when this does bite you, your perspective may be quite different. Almost can’t wait for that day, but then again, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
Sob stories aside.. the ease with which I’m finding interested companies does in fact make me think your friends who are incapable of finding work had skills that were out of date yet expected to be paid for 20 years of irrelevant experience.
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p>So here’s some data, it bears out my experience in 3 weeks of searching for a new job so far:
http://www.aeanet.org/PressRoo…
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U.S. High-Tech Industry Adds Jobs for Third Year in a Row, AeA Report Says
91,400 Jobs Added in 2007, Slower Growth Than in 2006
Unemployment Rates Below 2% Across Many Tech Occupations
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p> “While we are certainly pleased to report that the technology industry added jobs nationally and across nearly every state, national tech growth slowed in 2007, making the story good but not great,” said Christopher Hansen, President and CEO of AeA. “Tech jobs make critical contributions to the U.S. economy in terms of innovation, and pay extremely well – the average tech industry wage is 87 percent higher than the average private sector wage. In 47 cyberstates the average high-tech wage is at least 50 percent higher than the average private sector wage, and in four cyberstates this differential is over 100 percent. While these are the types of jobs every state wants to attract, the labor market remains tight, with unemployment rates below two percent across many tech occupations.”
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p>An examination of the sectors reveals that software services added 82,600 jobs in 2007, up for the fourth year in a row. Engineering and tech services added 45,800 jobs in 2007, also up for the fourth year in a row, putting it at an all time high. On the downside, high-tech manufacturing lost 29,800 net jobs in 2007. Seven of the nine tech manufacturing sectors lost jobs in 2007. Only the defense electronics and electromedical equipment sectors added jobs. The communications services sector continued to shed jobs in 2007, albeit at a slower pace, losing 7,200 compared to a loss of 16,900 in 2006.
the spin on this is that jobs are being added for the third year in a row. However, certain sectors continue to shed jobs. Now, take the total number of jobs and compare to the total number of graduates in those fields. There is an overwhelming disparity between the number of jobs created vs. the number of grads to fill those jobs (grads far outnumbering positions). I submit that the unemployment statistics are invalid due to the fact that large numbers of people no longer show up as unemployed techies nor do graduates who can’t find jobs in their fields (and will never show up in the unemployment figures as technies). Now add to this the number of H1B numbers requested, and you will get a staggering imbalance where an increase in allotments will effectively wipe out opportunities for a large segment of the technical industry. Your assumptions about the skills of people who left the industry are without merit.
TWO PERCENT UNEMPLOYMENT
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p>Economists call 5% to be ‘full employment’
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p>I don’t have data on graduates but we’ve tried to hire them at my work and they went other places for more money. So anecdotally, seems like they’re doing ok on average. As a matter of fact, if the prevailing wage is fully enforced and loopholes closed, then they don’t really face competition from H1B holders, or at least don’t face being undercut. Tech companies who know what they’re doing will always value bringing on kids with good fundamentals out of school.
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p>And, hey, plenty of people may have had great skills and left the industry because they got into painting or something, good for them. But with 2% unemployment in the industry, I doubt too many people with good skills are leaving because they can’t find any job. Maybe they’re expecting 100k for a 10-year-old skillset because they’ve been sitting on their duff at Comcast or Raytheon, hiding in a cube until they got laid off. I’d rather have a kid straight out of college than that guy myself, and that’s at the entry level skillset. Durn kids.
The “programmers guild” are a bunch of tools, the only thing they do is oppose H1B because they are a bunch of out-of-date geezers who’s strongest language is probably perl and who refuse to face up to the fact that their skillsets, not immigration, are the real problem here.
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p>I mean, look at that website. Great programmers. Heh.
just clued me in. Ageism. Nice form of bigotry. That’s what we’re dealing with here. Your smug attitude will get you far.
I’ve met plenty of people older than me who were sharper as far as cutting edge AND had decades of experience with systems, seeing what worked and didn’t, etc.
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p>Those people are great. However, it’s impossible for a 23 year old to be 10 years out of date, so you can call ageism if you want, it’s more just only respecting people with legitimate skills, whether we’re talking about a 23yo who slept through class or a 45 yo who slept through the last 5 years of work.
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p>And hating anyone who likes perl.
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p>I mean, you did look at the website, right?
who have left the business by choice were totally up to date and were reading the writing on the wall. My friend who lost his house was a Wall Street professional with advanced tech degrees and an MBA. Stirling record and not that old or antiquated (actually far more conversant than I am in many areas). I’ve never worked with perl, so have no opinion.
every Wall St company I’ve talked to has immediately wanted to bring me in for an interview, a couple have offers on the table already, I’m certainly perplexed. Doesn’t seem like there’s a shortage of jobs on Wall St in particular, lots of companies there who are hiring as fast as they can find people who meet their standards (which doesn’t include the vast majority of H1Bs)
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p>And as far as the writing on the wall, while googling for tech employment statistics I found a bunch of recommendations from Goldman Sachs, etc that it’s the best place to invest in 2008. Maybe things were different back in 1844 when your geezer friends were leaving 😉 (kidding, kidding)
I see the economic boom coming too, just like Bush and McCain promise. And, people who have years of experience should be retired because you know so much more than they do. Sheesh.
of high tech. But there has in fact been a global nonamerican economic boom for the last 5 years at least, only slightly dented this year by the american downturn. Tech serves the whole world, everyone trades on wall st, everyone uses the internet, etc. And the best programmers are in America and Europe.
This isn’t an immigration issue, it’s an issue about finding workers needed for high skilled jobs that aren’t available in America. We have an entirely different process for becoming citizens of the United States. The fact that all these visas are being dried up in one day just goes to show how many businesses are abusing them.
I think it bears repeating:
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p>This isn’t about capitalism. This is about basic fairness. We shouldn’t applaud companies for working the system to deflate wages. It’s bad for Americans – and it’s bad for immigrants, quite frankly, who are taking depressed wages just for the ‘right’ to work here.
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p>That’s not quite true in reality. If everyone was competing equally, this would be fine, but the advantage that H1B visa holders have is that they are willing to accept a lower level of pay and a lower standard of living because it is better than what they currently have in their own country.
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p>Would you take a job that paid you twice your current salary, allowed you to live like a prince, allowed you to live in a 20 room house with 5 servants, and required a 30 hour work week? Sure you would! Would it bother you that the native workers in your new country were making 4 times your current salary, lived in a 30 room house, had 10 servants, and worked just 20 hours? I doubt it would.
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p>We are making a conscious effort to expose certain groups of workers to global competition, even though our citizens are not as free to do this across the Globe. Try applying for a job in Canada, or Europe, and see what happens.
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p>Choosing a H1-B worker over an existing worker is like burnind down your house because it needs a paint job. The more workers we “throw away”, the worse off our economy becomes. Why not put more emphasis on recycling workers, training people in new technology instead of selecting a ready-made worker from another country?
People should also be taking the initiative to train themselves. Like I said ad nauseum in this thread, the average kid straight out of college with a relevant degree is at least twice as good a hire as the average H1B applicant, good conceptual understanding vs rote learning, culture barrier, etc.
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p>Kids out of college aren’t having trouble and professionals who’ve been in industry and have the years on their resume aren’t having trouble unless they very severely fall off a cliff with their skills. And the H1B allotment is still exhausted on the first day they can be applied for every year. There’s certainly a balance to be struck here, I agree with you on that much, I just think we’re on the wrong side of it and need to increase the cap. And I’m someone who’s competing with these people for jobs, I’m arguing against my own interests in favor of what I think is better for the economy.
the myths without any links or data to back you up (except your personal experience in job searching). I’ve provided evidence of false job postings being placed all over the country for the express purpose of skewing the perceptions! These are jobs for visa holders only, and it’s currently perfectly legal for businesses to play the game and post jobs then ignore any qualified US applicants. For crying out loud, I presented you with visual evidence of an immigration law firm training employers to do exactly that!!! What don’t you get here? I will be posting again on this issue because there are some interesting developments. Med students who are outraged over preferential treatment on internships being given to visa holders over US citizens. A lawsuit being filed against Chertoff and Lieberman over an emergency order to extend retention periods of another type of visa, all based on the same misperceptions. Do you not get that this is an EEO issue of gigantic proportions?
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p>This is blatantly false statement based upon the evidence I’ve provided. Why are you so sure about this and where the hell is your proof? Except for a bigoted and, in your our words elitist, viewpoint, I don’t see facts. I spent $10k last year on my skills. The way things are going, that’s a lost investment because my income is ever decreasing as the competition increases. Do you really think blaming the people who are targeted by this problem is the way to resolve it?
employer. Why? Cause we can’t find anyone. And when we’re not hiring? We leave them up, just in case someone good applies in which case we hire them regardless of need, because it’s that hard to find good people. I sent you links and data, there’s 2% unemployment in the tech field right now.
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p>Out of curiosity, what do you work with?
What’d you spend 10k on that you don’t think helped you? If you’re a programmer, just spend a bunch of time learning the java web stack or the .net stack up and down, write hello world stuff using common APIs for MVC, ORM, read ‘effective java’ by josh bloch or get the MS .net certifications, and you’ll be in ludicrously good shape I bet.
just because your particular skill might be in short supply does not negate the overwhelming evidence to the contrary that many highly skilled workers are being forced out of the biotech, chemistry, engineering and other technical industries. Your field may very well be suffering from a shortage as a result of this issue. Your specialty is a small microcosm in the big picture. And, no, I’m not interested in MS .net certification thank you.
I knew something was amiss. Thanks for the excellent tutorial.
Lament the poor immigrants, forced to work in “indentured servitude” at a pitance of $15+ per hour (the least compensation from the employment list you provided), an amount far in excess of what they could earn at home, and an amount they AGREE to as adequate compensation. There is you know, no law restricting them from leaving the country.
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p>And our poor employees can’t compete?!
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p>So, what’s your proposal: limit the H1Bs; ship those deadbeats off to whereever they came from; build a wall and beef up homeland security so no more immigrants can enter.
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p>Or alternatively, pass the Minimum Wage Act of 2008 where an employer must pay a living wage of $50K per year.
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p>Either way, you’re proposing a closed door policy on immigration or else, you’re proposing wage controls. Neither is good policy, and, although it happens infrequently, John Kerry is actually on the right side of a policy argument.
advocating any such thing. What I am advocating for is common sense regulation to prevent fraud and abuse. Since when is that a closed door policy? I do appreciate the input though, because it gives fairly clear indication as to how this debate is beging framed (inaccurately) and why it’s considered a political landmine that is being swept under the table of Congressional oversight. I don’t know how many ways there are to say this. I am for immigration civil rights, prevailing wages and enforcement of laws to benefit US and H1B workers. Those should be the goals, and John Kerry is not supporting those goals.
limiting the number of H1B visas granted, because the employment of immigrants depresses the wages/salaries in the tech sector.
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p>This is precisely what happens to unskilled workers as a result of the employment of what AmberPaw calls “undocumented migrants” : the presence of immigrants tends to depress prevailing wages in the market.
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p>Yet, liberal Democrats oppose attempts to reduce the latter type of immigration as inhumane.
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p>I’m trying to see some meaningful distinction between illegal immigration (supported on “human rights” grounds) and legal immigration under the H1B program (opposed on “it’s being used to screw American workers” grounds).
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p>Sure seems to me that abuses of the H1B program and illegal immigration screw American workers in precisely the same way.
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Blue collar workers have to deal with the immigration on top of automation and outsourcing — we’re producing more manufactured goods every year with fewer (or maybe fewer compared to pop growth) workers. That’s actually a real problem that I don’t have a solution to, I don’t think stopping immigration is gonna fix it, those immigrants can just build whatever it is in their home country and ship it here and we should always use the most efficient way to build something, the question is finding industries for those whose jobs are obsolete.
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p>Technology jobs you can’t automate until we come up with AI as smart as a human and there’s a massive growth industry in providing the automation that is making blue-collar workers obsolete. So we have demand for skilled technology workers in excess of our current supply, as evidenced by that visa cap being reached in a single day the last few years. To apply for those visas you already need to be employed, losing in the lottery means you quit your job and go home. I personally think that’s ridiculous.
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p>As far as the larger problem of the lower-skilled being made obsolete by automation and globalization, it is a problem and I think lolorb and I are ultimately concerned about the same thing. Personally, rather than switch the system back to the 1970s I prefer a New New Deal, tax those who are making windfalls to employ those who are out of a job building sorely needed public infrastructure that the private sector’s incapable of producing due to the free rider problem. Which the owners of capital can then proceed to make even more money off of, it works for everyone.
for corporations to abuse the system are removed, there would be no reason to be have this discussion. A comprehensive policy that addresses the H1B issue is not too much to ask for. If we accept the status quo, then we are disregarding all the things that I hope the Democratic party stands for: civil rights, justice, and equal opportunity.
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p>I have not spent as much time researching illegal immigration issues. From my not well informed standpoint, I think that there are very distinct differences. The H1B visa program was adopted to address a very specific need in this country (which it no longer does), and we should be advocating for fixes. Illegal immigration is a much broader issue which may or may not have similar components. I hope some subject experts can answer your question better.
I appreciate your reply.
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p>I happen to think that the priciples you cite apply in both areas, and I’m therefore sensitive to what I perceive to be a double standard.
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p>Though, obviously, your proposal is not the position of elected officials.
tying h1b pay to the same pay that Americans are getting for comparable work? Then, at least, it would be a meritocracy… or even tilted toward non-visas, since visas cost money for the companies hiring.
this is why blogs are great. I knew that many high skilled workers weren’t getting fair wages, and I knew that there were lots of h1b visas being given… but I never really tied the two together. Thanks Lolorb.
and I appreciate you picking up on the civil rights aspects, as those are critically important to H1B visa holders. If you didn’t click on the link in my post on desi consultants, that is where you can read the true impact the fraud and abuse has on those with genuine advanced skills hoping for H1B’s. It’s a system gone crazy with greed and disrespect. Here are a few comments from there:
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