Blue Mass Group

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Nancy Pelosi and Sanity or the lack thereof

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How long do we have to endure the House Speakers assertions that everyone is reponsible, everyone is to blame—-but her. Between the milisecond blinking of the eyes and her bizarre utterances, the house doctor should be close by with the thorazine, haldol, cogentin and ativan and the proverbial NET. This woman is on the verge of a meltdown.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s (Calif.) assertion at a press conference this morning that the Bush administration and the Central Intelligence Agency misled her and the Congress regarding the treatment of suspected terrorists adds further fuel to the fire on an issue that has been on a low boil for weeks.

Asked whether she was accusing the CIA of lying to her during a 2002 briefing on the use of so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques,” Pelosi said: “Yes, misleading the Congress of the United States, misleading the Congress of the United States. I am.”

She went on to call on the CIA to release the details of briefings they provided to Congress and for the creation of a truth commission to “determine how intelligence was misused and how controversial and possibly illegal activities like torture were authorized within the executive branch.”

http://voices.washingtonpost.c…

Many of her fellow Democrats are appearing very uncomfortable being in close proximity to her or are refraining to be photographed with her. It would seem that Ms. Pelosi may be exiting stage left.

Most, if not all, in Washington know that crossing the CIA has grave political consequences.

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  1. …or when she knew it.  Torture is illegal, and when the Bush administration authorized the torture program, they broke the law and they should now face the consequences.  If Pelosi is impolicated in it, she should face the same consequences.

    <

    p>Cheney’s assertion that torture saved lives is immaterial – the ends do not justify the means, and the means were against the law.  If I rob a bank and use the proceeds to pay my bills, will the judge let me go because I did good things with my ill-gotten gains?  

      • since treaties that the US signs have the force of law. But beyond the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention Against Torture, both of which the US is signatory to, there’s the War Crimes Act.

        <

        p>Please note the language of the UN convention:

        Article 2

           1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.

           2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

           3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

        • I was away from my computer, but that’s exactly how I would have answered.

  2. John Boehner.

    <

    p>In the Northeast, Pelosi continues to have net positive approval: 50% – 35% whereas Boehner’s strongest region is the South where his approval is still negative at 26% – 44%.

    <

    p>In fact, Pelosi’s approval rate equals Boehner’s plus McConnell’s. So it is purely fantasy to imagine that people don’t want to be seen with her, or that she’s some kind of pariah.

    <

    p>Maybe if the world were wingnuts.

    <

    p>It isn’t.

    • Let’s see how the public reacts to her latest waffling. (Boehner and McConnell are certainly pathetic spokesmen for the republican party.)

      • I expect her approval to slip further since the Republicans in the Senate (aided to a degree by a small number of Democrats) will make it difficult to accomplish anything.  The Republicans have the advantage of enormous internal unity.

    • Rep. Boehner: Now and Then

      Today, May 14, 2009, Rep. John Boehner criticized Speaker Pelosi’s press conference by saying, “it’s hard for me to imagine that our intelligence area would ever mislead a member of Congress.” Yet in 2007, Rep. Boehner criticized our nation’s intelligence community by saying, “either I don’t have confidence in what they told me several months ago or I don’t have confidence in what they’re telling me today.” Once again, rather than finding the truth, Rep. Boehner is playing politics.

  3. out of seeing what I call the “Ya My feet stink but your’s stink worse argument”
    Seriously, here’s the bottom line… Pelosi is a L-I-A-R…can you say liar?  That FACT has absolutely NOTHING to do with Boehner’s approval ratings or if torture .illegal or legal….totally irrelevant. she’s a friggin LIAR …say again.. a LIAR  .She has buried herself in a web of lies and there is no partisan BS excuses to mask the reality that she is a LIAR…..end of story

    • You’re saying the story that Pelosi is a “liar” is THE story? That the Vice President of the US ordering torture is not a story that’s at least as important as her supposed lying?  

      • Your “story” of a VP ordering torture is an old accusation that has NEVER been substantiated with FACT nor have any formal charges been brought forth to that effect. Hence a “non story”
        The more Pelosi now  contradicts herself and changes her story, the bigger the story becomes. Don’t know about you but I don’t want a LIAR as Speaker of the House.A vast majority of Americans agree , no doubt.

        <

        p>In any case , the story of her now calling the CIA liers in an attempt to Cover her political ass is going to bury her. There are too many first hand eyewitnesses available to testify otherwise and to testify as to what what she is ..a liar  

        • froth at the mouth, screaming LIAR! when it comes to Nancy Pelosi, but when the entire Bush Administration covered up, lied, and denied the torture everyone knew was occurring, Republicans were silent.

          <

          p>This has more to do with Nancy Pelosi than anything to do with the truth.  She draws out the right-wing wackos like no one since Hillary Clinton.

          • “right wing whackos” ? There goes your credibility down the toilet. Can you throw in a few “nazis” name calls just to remove any doubt that you’ve just lost any points in any kind of an adult discussion?
            Can’t waste any more time with you. Do your worst…I couldn’t care less

          • Both are women who are pro-choice and progressive on many issues.  Must really irk the right-wing to see these ‘uppity women folk in leadership positions.

          •  I watched your vid link and heard Cheney flat out say he authorized the interrogation of that poor victimized Shiek Mohammed…. I saw no “cover up” or “lies” about anything. What “cover up” and “lies” are you talking about? maybe if you actually watch it yourself you can help me see where the “cover up and lies” actually occur?

            • You claimed there was no substantiation that Cheney ordered torture. I gave it to you. All those words you’re putting in quotes are someone else’s; I didn’t write them.

              • He didn’t order anything..he “approved” along with Pelosi, Reid, Harraman,  Tennet and anyone else that had knowledge of this interrogation method

                • That’s an action that he cannot approve – no one in the USA is above the law, or able to “approve” breaking it.  If Pelosi and Harman were also in on it, they should also go to jail – let’s have an investigation and let the chips fall where they may.

                  <

                  p>And for the record, getting good results from torture doesn’t excuse the law breaking – if I rob a bank and donate the money to charity, the judge will send me to jail just as surely if I’d used that money for a couple of weeks of hookers and booze…

                • Has now been crossed. This is why the Republican Party is collapsing in upon itself until all that remains is the “Teabagging” base.

          • You will find that presenting evidence to Jack12 is a waste of time. He’s an expert at Calvinball: any evidence that disagrees with him is ipso facto wrong.

            <

            p>You will also find that any criticism of Jack12, no matter how merited, will be met with howls about “ad hominem” attacks.

            <

            p>This guy left in a huff on October 12. He really is not worth arguing with. And as everything he writes is in the Secret Wingnut Language where Nancy Pelosi is some kind of Whore of Babylon, there’s no need to worry.

            <

            p>No one really understands the secret Wingnut language beyond its tiny sect.

  4. If I thought electrocuting a terrorists testicles would save even ONE American life, I could only say three things:

    <

    p>Red =positive
    Black = negative
    Make sure his testicles are wet

    <

    p>I also believe that if the Dems want to persue this partisan witch hunt ( which I suspect Obama NEVER wanted to happen) that we shall find out that a whole lot of Dems actually would agree with me. This is a no win for partisan democrats

    <

    p>I think you all would be amazed at how many of your  fellow Americans would totally agree.

    • torture is going to save anyone’s life, you’re watching too much TV.

      <

      p>Here’s why waterboarding KSM 84 times didn’t save any lives.

      • of the interrogations and specifically what information was obtained to prevent a terrorist attack on LA, we’ll know.
        Until then , it’s immpossible to say…. your “here’s why” link points to some “salon” page ( whatever the hell that is?)

        • It’s actually pretty easy to point out the timeline – the alleged plot to take down the Library Tower was allegedly foiled in 2002, and KSM was captured in 2003.  Unless Cheney has a secret time-travel device in that man-sized safe in his office, the waterboarding of KSM had nothing to do with foiling that attack.

          <

          p>And again, I’ll point out that good results from criminal activity do not justify criminal activity.  If you don’t believe me, go rob a bank and donate the proceeds to charity – you’ll go to jail just as surely as every other bank robber…

  5. Legal consequences should only go to members of the executive branch who committed sins of commission by ordering action contrary to our law and treaties.  The legislative leaders only committed sins of omission where consequences may be political if their respective constituents deem it appropriate.  To prosecute for not holding hearings, not speaking out, or for any votes is a violation of their constiutional protections against “being questioned in any other place”.  For the record CSPAN is reporting that Pelosi claims she was misled on these matters.

    • with lawyers FDR had before he ordered the execution of seven German spies captured on Long island without uniforms a mere 21 days after their capture? Hmmmm?
      Wonder what FDR or Truman would have done with than nice Shiek who planned and executed the destruction of the WTC and the murder of 3,000 innocent Americans? Hey you “lawyers” out there… he’s got “rights” doesn’t he?
      Seriously, it’s come to this? What the hell is wrong with you people?

      • …but yes, the aforementioned do have rights.  There should always be an opportunity to challenge a detention, and certainly dot every i and cross every t before you carry out the irreversible sentence of execution.

  6. That all three branches of our government would authorize: by any means necessary, to obtain any and all information to preclude a terrorist group detonating a nuclear bomb in Washington DC.

    <

    p>So all this hand wringing and whining about waterboarding is much ado about nothing. When the chips are down, it is the moral, ethical and legal responsibility of those “in power” to use any means necessary to protect and defend the United States of America and its citizens. Niceties, legal nonsense, and any other arguement become null and void.

    <

    p>Nancy Pelosi today wrote her own political obituary. She is all done. The cloak and dagger crowd have her as enemy #1. Her self inflicted mortal wound was something the Republicans could never do. The irony is immeasurably pleasant. No doubt there will be several to follow.

    • The LAST possible people I would want pissed off at me would be the CIA…..ah, maybe the KGB might be worse?

      <

      p>Anyway Pelosi is toast. She called the wrong people liars.
      I always thought she was an airhead but this removed any doubt.

      • is a “right handed talker” although she can talk with both hands easily….watching her flair her arms and hands in an uncontrollable spew of psychobabble was really funny. With each new lie her arms flail more violently, her nose grows and I’m LMAO !  Total panic….It’s like watching a man with a paper ass in a forest fire …..great comedy! looking forward to more of this..it’s hilarious!

    • If it comes to that then maybe our capital city, the republic it governs, and everything it stands for isn’t worth defending anyway.

  7. One of the latest talking points is that “nobody should raise taxes that they won’t be paying.”  In that spirit, I offer than nobody should support torture such as waterboarding unless they’ve been tortured.

    • of the people saying “It’s not torture” have undergone waterboarding themselves. None. OTOH, look at who says it is torture, who have not coincidentally experienced it: John McCain, Christopher Hitchens, Jesse Ventura, etc. etc.

      <

      p>Can anyone find one person who’s been waterboarded who says it’s not torture? Anyone?

  8. Having been there—when someone is coming after you–to take everything you have or will ever have–your life—you will do everything in your power to avoid that–even killing your adversary. So what you essentially abhor yourself you would readily perpetrate upon another (I say you as extension to most of mankind)When the bad guys come to kill you, your family, your children, your neighbor, you community and your nation—all bets are off. Anyone that has not been in close combat has no idea what I am talking about—but those that have—know precisely what the experience is. Once you have been there—the experience never leaves you–no matter what you do–it is very close by. It’s as if it sits on your shoulder and reminds you unrelentingly that there is always someone or something about to snatch your life away—ruin your day, week, month, year, for all of eternity. It’s a basic fear, that you can never trust anyone—because in reality you can’t. Those that do are dead—they are no longer. So if you think everyone can kiss, give hugs and live happily ever after—-you are mistaken. There will be eternally be a dagger at the heart of the weak.

    <

    p>So—–if you wish to abolish and repudiate interrogations that will save yout life and that of your family—then please feel free, but leave me out of this equation. I want to live freely and to prosper and give something to my grandchildren in order that they may enjoy life no matter how much time is given to them. I don’t want their lives extinguished because someone wants to prove a point that we are better than our enemies (as their bodies assume room temperature) I want my enemies so fearfull of me that they would never raise a hand against me for fear of consequence or I want my enemies dead. Don’t think me so naive that I see the guy across the ocean as my enemy. My enemies dwell within my own country as well. What causes people to mind their own business is often fear of consequence rather than anything benign.

    • were the last words of Christ…. for which I’ll be ridiculed on this atheist electronic thread, no doubt.  MCRD your post is right on.

      <

      p>I don’t think that the young people now are bad people . I think they just don’t know. They have never known anything about what you’ve talked about…no idea…they have never wanted for anything… never known being “poor” ….never been in a trench in Korea or Viet Nam moments away from death….they never had  to…. They have never had to defend their personal freedoms…ever….never had to stand up for what America is all about ……they just “take”.

      <

      p>They want to award the freedoms and rights that so many American heroes  died for to the lowest terrorist life forms because their “professors” told them to do so…..makes me sick

      <

      p>Your post is one of the best I’ve ever read…thank you

      • I just think it’s an absolutely awful quote in this context.  Yes, the people who ordered it knew exactly what they were doing.  MCRD’s excuse for the worst human behavior is only valid in direct self-defense.  Even then you shouldn’t enjoy it.  The two of you seem to be people I would rather not know personally.  Your sadism knows no bounds.  Of course, I’m starting to question whether you even are two people.  You back each other up so much you sound like the same person.

          • I can’t play video on my connection, but I assume you refer to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  There’s no doubt that civilians are going to get in the way of war, but we rightly use such mass bombing as a last resort.  What I object to is the deliberate use of torture on a particular individual, which often seems to more satisfy a desire for base vengeance than anything else.  I also object for the detaining of people indefinitely without trial, more akin to our Japanese detention camps and just as unconstitutional.  I know Truman agonized over the decision (not convinced I can say the same about the recent administration) but otherwise I’m a bit reluctant to second-guess a 60-year-old decision.

            1. The U.S. conduct of the war in Asia is open to some questions about the morality of its conduct. Lots has been written about it, but I don’t pretend to know the facts well enough to address it intelligently. Neither the fire bombing of Tokyo nor the destruction of Dresden sit comfortably with me either.
            2. In general, I’d agree with you about civility. Jack12 has a long history here and on Red Mass Group. His account has been closed here twice and there once or twice. The mixture of an an insulting and abrasive style with an out-of-hand dismissal of any non-conservative source of truth makes for discussions richer in vituperation than enlightenment. I think this is problematic because it makes the liberal side of the BMD community too intolerant of conservatives that genuinely wish to participate in the discussion.
            3. One style of minority commenting I’ve described as moral witnessing. It’s a style that’s not conducive to civil discussion.

            • I agree with everything that you stated.  But I do think that both sides often get on their “high horses” which in and of itself antagonizes the other person. By the way, I am now reading “Truman” by David McCullough and the decision to use the bomb was not taken lightly (pp. 444-464) and the arguments against its use were the same that one hears today. I believe that Jon Stewart later apologized for his remarks about Truman.

              • Off topic, but I’m reading Wilentz, The Rise of American Democracy: From Jefferson to Lincoln. The differences between Andrew Jackson on one side and John Quincy Adams and Henry Clay on the other regarding the role of the federal government have a familiar echo.

                • A Russian film festival in Mumbai.

                  <

                  p>For such a large industry, India’s cinema commands a surprisingly tiny slice of U.S. viewers. Why is that?

                • Ironically I had to call the Citicards tech site yesterday as I was having trouble logging on, and the call center was in Mumbai.  The gentleman and I talked for about 10 minutes re the Indian Idol show. He was so pleased that I had seen some of the shows–I know this sounds corny, but there just isn’t time in our short lives to know all of the interesting people/languages on the planet.

              • … the arguments as similar.  The projected casualties for an invasion were of a scale that’d be difficult to fathom in modern times… on an order of magnitude with what we expected to get out of anyone we tortured.

    • are not convincing. Torture is not designed to save lives, and it does not do so. It’s very good at persuading helpless people to say what they think the torturer wants to hear. That appears to be the use it was put to by the Bush administration. They wanted to hear that Saddam and Al-Queda were allied. The torture forced someone to say that, and the Bushmen then used the statement to support their lust to invade a country that was no threat to us. It wasn’t true, but Cheney & Co. didn’t need for it to be true, they just needed someone to say it.

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