Now my first thought, having been to Wisconsin and witnessing first hand the generous and polite character of that area of the country, was to wonder if these teapartyers are simply more polite than others and that this left an opening to steer toward a conversation rather than a grandstanding opportunity for a ‘shout down’ protest. But then I read other accounts of the Fair. So it might be as much about Al’s handling as much as the nature of upper-midwesterners in general
On the other hand, maybe this is happening all over the country too, just not being reported.
Ezra points out:
But the scariest comment came from Rep. David Price of North Carolina, who chatted with a stringer for one of the television networks at a town hall he held in Durham.
The stringer said he was one of 10 people around the country assigned to watch such encounters. Price said he was told flatly: “Your meeting doesn’t get covered unless it blows up.” As it happens, the Durham audience was broadly sympathetic to reform efforts. No “news” there.
So what to make of it then? I’ve seen elsewhere that people like what’s in the bill when it’s explained to them. If the tactic is to incite fear about reform (a la early 90’s) then directing people to shout down any opportunities for explanations to come out will serve that end since is much easier to be scared of that which we don’t understand.
I remember hearing that Fox News (which I know we love to bash, but in this case I think it’s a media symptom not limited to Fox) covered the first few minutes of Obama’s town hall in Portsmouth, then cut away with the anchor saying something to the effect of if the President gets booed or shouted at we will bring it to you. So in other words, screaming at POTUS is news; engaging a discussion about a public policy with the potential to affect millions of Americans, not so much:(
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p>If Al Franken has a talent for getting people off the ledge, he should pay this person a visit!
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p>For some reason, I find Al Franken to be a far better communicator that the Prez. He doesn’t seem fake.
Appalling. Looks like this dude almost had a coronary because someone had a different opinion from him.
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p>Switch to decaf, my man … and work on the old Minnesota Nice.
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p>And for the record, I don’t approve of biting off fingers, either.
How is BMG so reasonable in comparison to this blog? The comments are pretty embarassing
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p>Granted, we have some pretty crude people (I occasionally fit that bill too) but it seems to be a pretty agreed upon fact that the woman is stupid because of her opposition. I don’t read any liberal blogs outside this one. Is BMG the rule or the exception where one can find mostly civil discourse from topics ranging from Catholic doctrine to beer to the details regarding psychiatric care and economic policy?
b/c I don’t hang out at Kos much,for example … I think for that precise reason. If it’s any consolation (it shouldn’t be), the Kossacks also know how to eat their own.
I think he got off track with his later reference of the Mayo clinic to explain to the older gentlemen how reducing costs would allow us to ensure everyone had preventative care. Franken missed the bridge in his in depth explanation — that by reducing the number of unnecessary tests, procedures and visits, which the Mayo clinic does, doctors would have more time to see more patients. Thus, suddenly there would be plenty of doctors to give preventative care for everyone in America — and that care would be better than the overuse of unnecessary medical procedures.
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p>An example of where less treatment can be better, from the big mayo article Franken was referencing:
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p>That’s quite the rationalization. Given the fact that surgeries of course have consequences, they should generally be a last-resort measure. If diet and exercise can suffice, many patients will follow through, especially if the alternative is either more pain or surgery.
if people were so willing to do diet and excerisize in order to benefit their health, we wouldn’t have such an obesity problem.
a lot of people would, people who don’t need surgery and/or drugs. Can you get everyone? Of course not. If you get a sizable percentage, though, not only will they avoid often painful and/or dangerous side effects and complications… but they’ll also save the system huge sums of money. That’s the brilliance of Mayo: it saves money and delivers better care. Real conservatives should be eating this stuff up… unfortunately, the reality is that national republicans are in the pockets of the big HMOs. They don’t actually care about gaining quality through efficiency, they care about ensuring HMOs are reformed as little as possible, facing as little competition as possible. Unfortunately, all too many democrats are in those pockets, too.
of right-wing, blaming-the-victim thought. We supposedly have an obesity problem not because processed-food manufacturers make their products taste good by piling huge amounts of various high-calorie substances into them, but because the people who become obese are lazy and otherwise morally deficient. Not because they don’t have primary care physicians advising them on how to be fit, but because they’re unwilling to do the things necessary do be fit.
of left-wing, not taking responsibility for your actions thought. We don’t supposedly have an obesity problem: it’s a fact. Primary care physicians aren’t a panacea for the ills of the populace. Someone who weighs 5’5” and weighs 300 pounds isn’t going to hear from a doctor that they need to shape up and suddenly have an epiphany. In an age where some people consider internet access a fundamental right, nobody has an excuse to be aware of the fact that 4,000 calories a day is ‘not sustainable’ and that ::gasp:: you should change that diet and work out if you are obese.
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p>Or perhaps you’d be interested to see how those health care utopia across the pond are faring since we love talking about how awesome their health care is.
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p>Get real, kirth. They can manufacture a trillion danishes but nobody forces in your mouth and then chews and swallows it for you.
in my comment applied to your reason for obesity, not to the existence of it. This is an example of your inability to comprehend views you don’t agree with. Or maybe it’s a deliberate straw man.
But there are so many pervasive and pernicious counter-views that certain foods “isn’t really that bad for you” or it’s just stupid hippies “over-reacting – my grandfather eat steak and smoked cigars every day and he lived to be 90!”(hey, remember the whole school lunch fluff-gate?) This is to say nothing of the billions of advertising dollars spent to convince everyday Americans that healthy people can eat a Franknsteinburger and fries for lunch everyday and still look attractive and fit. So yes, the information is there for people to absorb in order to live a healthy lifestyle, but this information competes with a boat-load of other information saying that what diet science says is BS and need not be heeded. Add this to the fact the people want to believe what they want.
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p>Two examples from my mother about disregarding scientifically-backed information.
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p>1.) My mom still thinks that it has yet to be “proven” that second-hand smoke is harmful.
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p>2.) A conversation between me and my mom:
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p>Also, bear in mind that my mom is the person that was chiefly responsible for educating me on all matters nutrition and developing my eating habits, habits that I took into adulthood. It took me many years to see the light and fall off my donkey and realize what proper nutrition actually looks like and choose healthy eating habits. And I was never obese. I was the same weight then, in my pizza 3-times-a-week/eat-burgers-like-candy sedentary years, as was the day I finished my first half-marathon. Because I have never had weight issues, I could have continued to live with my head in the sand until my first heart attack or such.
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p>Looking back, I was taught horrendous eating habits and trained to be closed-minded about the positive and ill effects of food – habits and views that my mom, brother, and sister still unfortunately have. I seriously had to de-program myself in order to get myself to eat the way a human being should be eating. And I still grapple with nutritional issues because I don’t think I will ever silence that part of me that used to allow me to eat what I wanted when I wanted rather than making a concerted effort to nourish my body.
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p>Yes, ultimately people are responsible for their own nutrition habits – I’m a liberal and I take personal responsibility for my own health. And yes, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make her drink, as my mother proves. Yet the truly good information is drowned out by the truly bad information. We see/hear McDonald’s ads 4,6,10 times a day, but who here can name one website that you would trust for legitimate information on nutrition and how to properly nourish your body?
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p>Joe, we agree on many points of this issue, but I can’t subscribe to the idea that it is as simple as you make it sound. I mean, you’re right, a physician telling a patient that he needs to eat better and be more active isn’t going to magically make everyone healthier (my friend’s doctor has given up on the diet and exercise recomendation because my friend just wants Crestor for his cholesterol. He’s been on Crestor since the age of 27). But ignoring the factors of why people get into this head-in-the-sand mode about nutrition, ignoring the fact that many people have just never had access to proper education about nutrition, and ignoring the roadblocks that impede people from obtaining proper nutrition, is not helpful.
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p>I’m not claiming to have an answer right now, I’m just saying we need to recognize that people are not literate about nutrition and society could be doing a much better job of educating each other on how to take care of your body through nutrition.
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Note to anyone, FWIW: Much of what I learned about nutrition, I first encountered at Harvard School of Public Health’s The Nutrition Source. I emphatically recommend it.
**I’d also not that this argument says nothing of the tons of fad diets, celebrity “cleanses”, new age methods, and just all around stupid pop culture BS that masquerades as legit nutrition information, information that also competes with medically and scientifically solid information about nutrition.
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p>Agai, yes there we can find good stuff on the internet and in books on how to eat properly, but we will also find much BS. Whom does one trust? This question is difficult for a lot of folks.
I saw my doctor. He told me my weight was normal, which today makes me abnormal. Verbatim.
… rebuttal of ‘left wing, not talking responsibility’. is misplaced. She pointed out the culpability of the food supply in the problem of obesity, and you successfully refuted the role of primary care physicians.
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p>The distortion on the price of corn has made us a nation that consumes a diet to match, with all the health consequences that entails.
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p>The point is that policy actually matters and chalking everything up to ‘personal responsibility’ is a problem because it conveniently ignores all the ways we can influence results through policy.
Okay, I’m exaggerating, but read this article.
It’s one thing to just be out of shape and not feel motivation to eat better, but gallstone pain, I think, is a very immediate motivator.
of progressive managed care for easily 20 years. That is what Franken is referring to. In my previous clinical life, we tried multiple methods of managing health care dollars in an effort to maximize access and care and minimize cost. Mayo lead the way. For example, there was a method known as capitation, a system no longer in practice, whereby a provider was alloted x amount of dollars to manage all the patients on that panel on a per capita basis. The pot of dollars was determined by the age of the enrollment. It was an interesting model, and Mayo made it work for a while, but ultimately the inherent flaws became apparent, and the capitation system was abandoned. Massachusetts abandoned it and so did Kaiser in California. Mayo is true north for anybody in the clinical professions. They do everything better, including providing quality care at a lower cost. Franken’s insistence on using Mayo to illustrate his point is correct no only because of Mayo’s reputation, but remember that the people he is talking to know Mayo intimately and understand the larger metaphor. This is Minnesota, after all.
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p>Franken is intuitively right to hold up Mayo as the compass for these people; it has rarely–if ever–been off the mark in the past and is unlikely to be off the mark in the future.
that Mayo makes extensive use of physician extenders. That is some of what Franken rather inartfully was trying to get at in response to the guy’s question on limited providers, but Franken got a little off track.
Where did I not say it was a model? Of course it’s a model. My point was that I don’t think Franken explained it well with that one question. Overall, Franken’s discussion was brilliant… hence my “one” critique. Sheesh.
came across as hypercritical. I didn’t mean to. I read your note and it seemed to suggest a narrower focus than you meant. You may well be aware that Mayo is Mecca but I had no way of knowing that based on what you wrote.
expressed myself, too. I was trying to cast it in a positive light, because it is something that should be replicated throughout the country.
In 2003, I saw a physician for gallstones and was referred to a surgeon who recommended gallbladder surgery. I knew someone who had just had the surgery, though, and had had life threatening complications, so I did not want to have surgery unless absolutely necessary. When I made clear that avoiding surgery was my preference, I received dietary recommendations. I have been fine since. How many people have medical procedures that carry real risks when they may not need to, because doctors do not always make clear to patients that there are more conservative (but less profitable to the physician) options? I bet half the people on this blog have some comparable story.
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p>The clip with Franken is great. What a shame the media is so addicted to broadcasting soundbites and controversy. Our system requires a level of citizen engagement and education to function well. There are so many issues worthy of real discussion that are part of healthcare reform. We should be hearing about them on the news. Instead, we get clips of mostly uninformed but highly anxious opponents and reporting of polling on Obama’s latest approval rating. It’s nuts.
My dream would be for the government to make broadcast tv news a public good again. It should be a privilege to use our airwaves and we shouldn’t have news dictated on what sells to the least common denominator anymore. I was watching some clips of old broadcast tv coverage of health care during the whole Nixon/Kennedy debates… and the difference between now and then is night and day. If we had that kind of coverage today, far more people would know what the heck was going on… and we’d probably have the public option by now.
Maybe he succeeds because he had a real job dealing with the public, rather than just talking down from Mt Olympus like the rest of these hacks.
Is Mt Olympus still hiring? What sorts of openings?
to be limitless openings for ‘hacks,’ and the qualifications are not too onerous – basically anyone who is more progressive than Silent Cal.
… right there with the questioners. Much less ‘talking down from Mt Olympus’ than almost anyone I’ve seen on this recess.