Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

Is Obama lying?

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I think he is, at least on allowing illegal immigrants to participate in the public option.

I have the text of HR 3200 before me and in pdf format.

I cannot find in it any specific wording prohibiting illegal immigrants from participating in the public option, or any mention of immigration status as a condition of eligibility.  If HR 3200 does not AFFIRMATIVELY make legal immigration status a requirement, then by default it allows illegal immigrants to participate.

The bill does not need to say that illegal immigrants are permitted for illegal immigrants to enroll into the public option.  It only needs to remain silent on their prohibition.

Functionally, it’s the same thing.

Nor is there any requirement to verify the immigration status of plan participants.

The only mention in HR 3200 specifically denying illegal immigrants anything is Section 242 which defines “Affordable Credit Eligible Individual”, page 132, line 19, and again in Section 246, page 143, line 7.  But if disclosure of immigration status is not required for eligibility determination, then these sections are functionally inoperative.

Maybe I’ve missed a section somewhere, but I’ve looked carefully.  Can anyone find anything that can prove me wrong?

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  1. Rep Joe Wilson is just another ill-behaved, indecorous and ignorant of the house rules, Republican punk.  You can give money to his Democratic challenger Rob Miller here.

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    p>Section 242 says that health service organizations will not  receive reimbursement for health services delivered to illegal immigrants.  

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    p>Illegal immigrants can get care but they have to pay for it.

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    p>Critics have suggested that becuase there is no requirement for health care service organizations to check citizenship, the bill allows illegal immigrants to get government subsidized health care. Not true, it is illegal.  

    • Quote: “There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.”

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      p>This is a categorically false statement.  Illegal immigrants are not ineligible to be insured under the plan.  They are ineligible to receive Affordable Credit.  But they are welcome into the plan.  I’m insured under the plan, that doesn’t mean it’s free for me.  Same with illegal immigrants.

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      p>No pre-existing conditions … so sick Mexicans come to the US illegally, get a bogus Social Security Number, work for a couple of months, get into the plan, have their treatment, then leave.  This creates a HUGE free-rider problem that will cost BILLIONS.

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      p>To me, Obama is simply LYING about this.

      • What’s wrong with “them” – or whomever else you hate so much – PAYING for health insurance, same as the rest of us? They can do that now! “They” get nothing in this bill they don’t already have. Except more of your hate.

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        p>Politifacts proved you and Preston Brooks aka Joe Wilson wrong. Even FAIR, the anti-immigration group, concedes this.

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        p>The public option isn’t free, just run by the government. And “they” cannot, as you repeatedly acknowledge, qualify for the federal credits to help pay for the health insurance. So, they gotta pay full freight. And that’s wrong? Paying full price same as the rest of us is wrong?

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        p>They’ll probably pay less than your hero the screaming lunatic WIlson pays for his insurance.

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        p>Just what planet are you from? The liars in this debate are you Republicans. Stop spanking and start thinking.

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        p>

        • Obama said illegal immigrants will not be eligible for coverage under the “reform.”

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          p>You just said they would be (I agree with you) but that’s NOT WHAT OBAMA SAID.

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          p>Forget Wilson.  Forget who pays or doesn’t pay.

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          p>The president said illegal immigrants will not be eligible to participate in the plan, when in fact you ADMIT to as much.  Thank you.

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          p>Obama = LIAR.

          • One of the purposes of the speech was for him to present his own plan, different from the ones in Congress, which he did.  

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            p>Oh snap.  You’re Gotcha moment, “the President lied” just vanished like a fart in the wind.

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            p>That said.  I appreciate the way you argue your points on a factual basis unlike JohnD who is still working on having a clear line of reasoning  … about anything.

        • I hate that many people are here illegally.  I hate illegal immigration.  Illegal immigration creates a serious free-rider problem, as I show by example in my post.  Did you even read it?  If so, you didn’t understand it.  Maybe I should have used “Scandinavian” instead of “Mexican.”

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          p>I come from immigrant stock.  I work with legal immigrants of all stripes, creeds, and colors.  The more the merrier because most immigrants come here to work, as did my grandparents, and so I welcome them, as were my grandparents.

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          p>What is it with progressives?  You immediately claim I hate “them or “whoever” without comprehending what I think is clear writing.  You’re the one that needs hate-management-training, not me.

          • If you would be happy to have them come here legally the way immigrants did in the past, fight to change the laws which makes their entry into the country illegal.

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            p>After all, your family as mine likely was allowed to purchase a ticket, show up on the shore and announce, “I’m Home.”

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            p>The efforts to limit immigration began with the Chinese and Irish Catholics and have always been racist. Your first Republican President, Abraham Lincoln wrote:

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            p>

            August 24, 1855: Letter to Joshua F. Speed

            The American or “Know Nothing Party” was an anti-immigrant political party of the 1850’s.

            I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we begin by declaring that “all men are created equal.” We now practically read it “all men are created equal, except negroes.” When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read “all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics.” When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty-to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy.

            • However, my grandparents strove to learn English, assimilate, and become citizens.  That was their goal.  It’s different today.

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              p>Nonetheless, my immigration stance is best described as “big fence, big gate.”  Anyone who wishes to come here to work temporarily is welcome.  Stop by an ICE facility at the boarder, get a biometrically  bulletproof ID card, get a non-SSN tax ID number, and pass a medical check-up (as did my grandparents.)

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              p>This permit would be good for a certain period of time.  Then it expires, and the person would need to return home but is permitted to re-enter after a set period of time.

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              p>This was actually the way it was in the 1960’s with the Bracero migrant worker program.

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              p>If this were done, we could have an honest debate whether to allow guest workers public benefits, how much they pay, etc.

      • Mexico’s life expectancy, infant mortality and maternal mortality are improving at a faster rate than the US. This probably explains why more American travel abroad for health care than Mexicans.

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        p>We must either fix our health care delivery system or hope we will not receive the same treatment we have bestowed on foreigners.

        • Even if true, you think Mexicans are less able, due to the huge income disparity, to travel for medical service?  

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          p>Do Americans travel abroad for health care?  Do you have any citations?  I’m seriously interested in learning more.  I’ve seen some stories about folks traveling to India surgery but don’t knwo the full story.

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          p>On the other hand, I think many more people travel to the US for care.  Ever been to Mayo Clinic?  I have.  Many times.  It looks like the UN.  People from around the world go there.  Mass General, too.  Add Mt. Sinai, Cleveland Clinic, Anderson, Mary Hitchcock, etc. etc., and you have the sense that we have world-class care.  Other nations do not.

    • I didn’t mention him.  I was just trying to illustrate, but referring to the exact language of HR 3200, that illegal immigrants are not excluded.

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      p>I never defended Joe Wilson.

      • if not to defend Joe Wilson?

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        p>The fact is that, as long as they are here, we are going to be paying for illegal immigrants one way or another under anybody’s health plan. Here’s an idea. Why don’t we give healthcare to illegal immigrants but charge their country of origin for the cost. Of course, in return they will charge us for any healthcare Americans receive in their country, but that is only fair. (I am mostly kidding)

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        p>BTW, while I though the speech was great, I am skeptical about many aspects of the plan and look forward to hearing more details.

        • About Mexico cheerfully remitting a check.

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          p>I’ve taken the time to read the whole damn 1,018 pages.  When the president gets up there and says illegal immigrants are NOT going to be covered, and I’ve read all the relevant sections which are completely silent on eligibility for illegals, I’m furious.  The president has looked me in the eye and he’s lied to me.

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          p>I’ve run 1,200 person health plans, multiple employer welfare groups to be exact, so I know my way around health care language.  HR 3200 does not prohibit illegal immigrants from plan eligibility.

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          p>I’m not defending Joe Wilson.  I’m accusing President Obama of lying to you, to me, and to the entire American public.

          • First, his plan is not strictly that bill. Second, he made it clear that he is quite willing to compromise on many issues with the Republicans. If the Republicans were truly interested in working with the President — and clearly they are not — they would say “great, we are glad you agree we should not cover illegal immigrants, let’s just make sure that the bill says that…”. Instead, they just cry “liar”. That is a cynical ploy, pure and simple.

            • Obama demanded — demanded! — that HR 3200 be passed before the summer recess, so HR 3200 is legislation he would have signed “as is.”  He said as much.  HR 3200 does not prohibit illegals.

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              p>Additionally, I believe various Republican amendments in the House specifically denying non-legal-status individuals from coverage were defeated.

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              p>If Obama was OK with HR 3200, it means to me his words are totally disingenuous.  Let’s see if he “demands” specific language.

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              p>BTW, no Republican has been allowed into any drafting session since April.  It’s the Dems who are excluding Republicans, not Republicans turning their backs on the process.

    • If they crawled though a sewer pipe under the border or crossed the border squeezed into a truck with 50 other people… to get here “illegally”, do you really think they would not apply for care because it would be “illegal? Do you want to buy a bridge?

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      p>

      Critics have suggested that becuase there is no requirement for health care service organizations to check citizenship, the bill allows illegal immigrants to get government subsidized health care. Not true, it is illegal.    

      • I’m rhetorically cornered! Where do I go from here?

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        p>Thinking … thinking …

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        p>EUREKA!!!!!

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        p>No.

        • can you back up your “no”?  Please point to the appropriate section in HR 3200 that prohibits coverage for illegals.

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          p>Jim?  JimC?  Anybody?

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          p>Ya got nothing.

          • The president’s exact words, courtesy of The New York Times:

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            p>

            There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

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            p>Here’s what I don’t have: Any time to engage you in your dishonest, trollish, childish game.

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            p>By the way, I believe the troll rating you gave me above constitutes ratings abuse.

            • Jim, lay off the Obama Kool Aide.  Just because Obama says “no illegals,” nothing else matters?

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              p>It’s you who’s dishonest.  Or blind.  Or a poor reader of English.

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              p>Obama speaks these words but the text of HR 3200 reads the exact opposite.  Therefore, OBAMA IS LYING.

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              p>Please find and cite where it says in HR 3200 where illegal immigrants are ineligible for participation in the plan.

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              p>You can’t.  Because it does not exist.

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              p>By the way, your comments are less than worthless, in my opinion.  How is that trolling?  Under what conditions may I rate someone a “zero”?

              • in the left column:

                Insults, personal  attacks, rudeness, and blanket unsupported statements reduce the level of discourse, interfere with our basic objective, and are not permitted.

                None of those describe JimC’s comment.

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                p>As to your repeated claims that Obama lied, you quoted this:

                …the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

                They won’t. Illegal aliens will not have more ability to purchase insurance than they do now, as a result of the reforms. They would likewise not be subsidized or otherwise provided with federal money for health care because of the reforms.

          • SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

            Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

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            p>You can see the bill here, courtesy of the government printing office:

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            p>http://frwebgate.access.gpo.go…

          • Obama: There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

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            p>The way I read this, Obama is proposing reforms separate from house bill HR 3200 (and the four other bills including the Baucus bill written by WellPoint) which prohibit illegal immigrants from being insured as part of this legislation.

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            p>In all the shouting, it was hard to listen Wednesday.  Seems like so many Republicans were tweeting, scowling, pissing, moaning and shouting ‘you’re a liar’ that they didn’t understand Obama was making a new proposal, one he thought was a basis for moving forward.

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            p>Yet,Republicans continue to yell in outrage about aspects of the five bills in Congress.

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            p>It remains to be seen if angry mob Republicans, and I’m talking about Congressmen and Senators, who have a record of just saying no in national debates on legislation since Obama’s inaugural, will engage in the health care reform debate in a constructive manner, and try to influence it positively, or just try to blow it up.  

    • You do realize that 0’s are for comments that truly should be deleted – e.g. commercial spam, obscenity, etc.?

  3. go hang out in Mitt Romney’s yard.
    This is absurd.  You must want every law to require nurses and doctors say, in their best German accent, “Papers please!”

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    p>There is a law against migrating to America without the right documents.  It is an immigration law.  We don’t need to put this in every other law the Congress passes.

    • It’s illegal?  Who knew?  None of it is enforced, so yes, we need to see papers, please, if you want to get into our soon to be nationalized health system.

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      p>Why worry?  Because the financial burden from illegal immigration on towns, states, and the whole country is a vast problem, perhaps not too visible in MA but try CA or any other southwestern state where the majority of illegal Latin American immigrants reside.  It’s croaking those states — schools, hospitals, our legal system, uninsured drivers, etc., etc., — all overflowing and out of money.

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      p>Why else did Obama reduce his “uninsured” number from 47 million to 40 million on Wednesday?

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      p>

  4. Boston.com ran an anonymous “fact checking” piece this morning that seemed to suggest that some of Obama’s assertions may have been slightly dubious.
    Of course, this idea of dutiful journalists “fact-checking” a presidential address has been implemented approximately 7 years too late, IMO.
    Did anyone else see the Globe piece?  

    • I thought it was a good start but more retrospect is needed on the rest of the speech. I wanted some factchecks on more of this but noting yet.

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      p>One of the annoying quotes…

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      p>

      Everyone in this room knows what will happen if we do nothing. Our deficit will grow. More families will go bankrupt. More businesses will close. More Americans will lose their coverage when they are sick and need it the most. And more will die as a result.

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      p>I keep hearing about the “fear mongering” regarding Republicans. Maybe it is just the way things are that when Republicans “scare” people they “fear monger” but Democrats have been hanging the sword of Demicles over our heads concerning bailouts, stimulus bills, more bailouts… and now healthcare reform. Doesn’t “anyone” see Obama’s “Americans will die” if we don’t do something as “fear mongering”?

  6. Why shouldn’t it be?  Sure illegals may not be excluded from purchasing, but so what.  I manage a small store and I don’t ask my customers to verify their legal status.  As long as they have the means to purchase what I sell that’s all that matters.  As for enforcement, does that have to be explicit?  If the law says they shall not receive benefits and a bureaucrat lets them anyway then I imagine there would be the same penalty as in any other instance when the bureaucrat doesn’t adhere to the law.  The other question I have is why does this bother people so much?  There are 12 million undocumented here and as far as I can tell their presensce isn’t hurting me.

    • It does not account for the financial burden caused by plan participants jumping in and out quickly.  This incurs costs, but no revenues.

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      p>Example: a young couple with no health care decide to have a family so they purchase family coverage and then the wife gets pregnant.  She uses up $15,000 worth of pre-natal care, then $25,000 of hospital services for the delivery.  And this is if everything goes ok.  Then they can leave the plan, or reduce coverage, or change plans.  This leaves the plan with a huge LOSS.  

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      p>You think I’m just making this up, but I used to run multiple employer health plans, and this happens ALL THE TIME.  This is the reason why there’s “pre-existing conditions exclusions.”  

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      p>You don’t think this would happen with illegal immigrants?  Come here, get on the plan, get treated, take off?

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      p>Of the 12 million illegals here, you think you’re not subsidizing their health care, school desk, food stamps, etc?  Because you are.  And they are not fully paying into the system to reimburse their cost burden.

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      p>Your small store analogy is no analogy at all.  It would be if illegals came in anytime and were able to purchase everything at 70% off.  Is that fair?

      • Like a whole host of other businesses, insurance providers exist to provide a customer service.  I would say that couple you describe above has every right to shop around and if after a while they find a better service jump ship.  I suppose one way to alleviate some loss would be to require a commitment like phone/TV/internet services do of say a year (although I’m honestly not a huge fan of this practice either).  If I’m in the habit of shopping at one grocery store, but then discover the one down the street has a better selection and/or better prices, I’ll switch in heartbeat with no handwrining about the loss of my business the first store is taking.  I don’t know where your 70% off idea is coming from.  Of course I don’t give illegal immigrants a special deal.  They pay the same as anyone else which is as it should be.  If they are applying for government assistance their legal status is relevant, but if they’re just shopping around in the private market who cares?  They will benefit from the increased competition in the market with lower prices, but no more than anyone else.

    • if he’s being hurt by illegals being here. Go ask the politicians in CA how much medical costs are being incurred from illegals. Some people get hurt directly (jobs) while other people get hurt indirectly (taxes).

      • My idea all along has been to reform the LEGAL immigration process so there’s basically no incentive to come here illegally.  The vast majority who come here just want a better life and are not criminals or otherwise bad people.  It seems in this day and age we should have the means to do background checks quickly and thoroughly do determine any risks to public health or safety.  After that as far as I’m concerned we should throw the “Golden Door” as wide open as possible.  I’m confident we have plenty of room and resources, especially if they work and contribute.  Meanwhile we should strongly enforce and possibly strengthen labor laws to make sure that both the tradesmen you cite and the immigrants get a fair shake.

        • This country is “starving” for any jobs. The people building homes and renovating homes are starving both because of the economy AND the plentiful amount of low income workers. Legalizing these illegals would permanently put millions of blue collar workers out of work. Even with labor laws you cannot have millions of legal immigrants working for minimum wage competing with $20-40/hour carpenters and plumbers.

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          p>We don’t have an endless supply of work for the world to come in here and do for us.

          • We could have strong prevailing wage laws and union protections to keep the playing field level, but I thought people of your pursuasion liked the idea of keeping wages low and just let the market do what it will.  That being said I also feel that your concerns are exactly why it is iin our interests to encourage political liberty and economic opportunity everywhere so they won’t flood our market.  To me the fundamental basis for the American experiment is that anyone can come try to make a better life.  We may need to limit overall annual immigration capacity, but if we don’t do everything possible to welcome and include as many people as possible, then this country is no longer living up to its founding principles and has lost its place in the world and very reason for existing.

  7. Although I don’t see what’s under discussion is much better that allowing them to do anything they want.

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    p>I can’t make sense out of this except it’ll be riddled with loopholes.

  8. I know what this is about:

    A sanctuary city is a term given to a city in the United States that follows certain practices that protect illegal immigrants. These practices can be by law (de jure) or they can be by habit (de facto). The term generally applies to cities that do not allow municipal funds or resources to be used to enforce federal immigration laws, usually by not allowing police or municipal employees to inquire about one’s immigration status.

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    p>So here we have our good shepherd, huffing and puffing about a lying President. (WMDs?) But I digress.

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    p>How Obama helps illegals? Let us count the ways….
    Obama paves highways for illegals to use. All those shovel ready projects are for the betterment of America’s illegals.

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    p>NASA puts satellites into space, so illegals can use GPS and cell phones.

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    p>The FDA protects migrant illegals from touching produce with nasty chemicals.

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    p>Illegals don’t drive clunkers anymore.  

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    p>POTUS-
    There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.
    AUDIENCE MEMBER: You lie! (Boos.)

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    p>OK. So Obama is NOT saying illegals won’t benefit by health care reform. He IS saying that his plan would NOT insure them.

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    p>Let me dice this another way. Do you gripe about Obama’s use of federal Highway funds to pave the way for illegals crossing the border? NO! Because the roads are there for ALL OF US and it just so happens we have no way of stopping illegals from using them.

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    p>Are you in favor of setting up roadblocks to ferret out illegals using our highways?

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    p>Obama didn’t lie. The conservative meme is that ACORN is stacking the census with illegals to skew the results, so that Dems can gerrymander themselves into permanent power. GOPers talk as if illegals are a constituency of the Democratic Party. This is politics of hate and most Americans are tired of it. (Except for Palin fans)

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    p>Illegals will have access to hospitals because they are human beings. It has been that way for a long time.

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    p>Futhermore-
    Illegals? This is a border control issue. When that strawman is put up to distract from the issue at hand, I brush it aside. And it has been pointed out, this cost is already built into the current regime.

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    p>At some point we should discuss all “under the table” business practices. The Chamber of Commerce, law abiding citizens that they are, can’t wait to disinfect that festering sore.

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    p>

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