Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

Comments

  1. …for parents to kick out their minor children.  School guidance offices should be a point of contact for resources regarding alternatives in extenuating circumstances.

    • …and it is illegal not to support a 17 year old – but who does the 17 year old tell?  And how does that 17 year old go back to where they are not wanted, or are beaten, or there is no food anyway?

      • As for the 17-year-old, that’s why I suggested the schools.  I wouldn’t expect the schools to provide the services, but they should be able to refer the child to DSS or something.  Even if the kid has dropped out of school s/he should be able to go back and try to get help.

  2. period unless they commit a crime.  Free or reduced lunch, that’s about it.  

    <

    p>I teach in a town that has trailer parks galore as well as a transient motel community due to the major crossroads of several major highways.  The only reason DFS in a home these days is because there are small children, younger than 15 in the home.  Otherwise, forget it.  

    <

    p>High school has become a the educational equivalent of limbo.  Not yet adults and no longer children, these kids, 14 through 17, fail to register on anyone’s radar unless they commit a crime.  They can be living in a refrigerator box for all anyone cares.  Dysfunctional parents routinely throw their teenagers out of the house with nowhere to go.  Sometimes they have friends to take them in, but sometimes they don’t.  Tough shit.

    <

    p>When I taught middle school, it was easy to get the state involved.  CHINS and 51As, no problem. Our dean of students spent more time in court than she did in the building.   But high school?  Forget it.  Those kids are on their own.  

    • Students are only required to attend school until their 16th birthday.  Those who sign out at that age will spend their 16th and 17th years away from the major government-child contact point in our society.

      <

      p>Deval has mused raising this age to 18, but I’ve never seen any proposals on how to deal with and prepare for the extensive negative consquences such a change would have.

      • There’s almost no excuse for not completing high school, IMO.  Severe medical issue is the only justification I can think of at the moment.

        • Let’s see what this looks like.

          <

          p>Sally is late for school 3 days out of 5 because she is dependent on her boyfriend to give her a ride.  Sometimes he gets up and sometimes he doesn’t.  Mom is sleeping cozily with her latest BFF.  That means Sally misses at least one class in a rotating schedule on a regular basis.  At the end of the quarter, Sally has missed too many classes to receive credit for the course.  Sally, you see, is screwed.   Therefore, Sally either gives up and drops out because there is no way for her to make up the credits.  After all, there are only so many periods in a day and there are so many credits she needs to graduate.   Night school is her only option but she doesn’t have the money to pay for the courses she needs at a community college.  Sally, you see, is screwed.   Sally, btw, lives with a variety of people, sometimes her boyfriend, but rarely her neurotic alcoholic parent, who has a new boyfriend every week.

          <

          p>Are you for real?  

          <

          p>I’m sorry.  You know NOTHING about the lives of high schoolers and shouldn’t be asserting “there’s almost no excuse for not completing high school.”  Holy shit.  Get a clue.  There are so many variations on this theme that I could fill an entire diary with nothing but scenarios.  

          <

          p>There are a lot of reasons why some kids cannot finish high school, and many of them have little to do with a student’s ability or motivation and everything to do with the circumstances of their daily lives.  

          • Next time we see each other, remind me to tell you the story of a young woman I know in Florida.  She is 20 and now has legal custody of her 10 year old and 11 year old younger half brother and half sister.  It was that her foster care for them.  She got through high school by living with her boy friend for her junior and senior year.  She an her boyfriend are really making a home for these young people.  

          • AmberPaw had a much better response below.  My idea is require to stay until 18th birthday, require to leave by 21st birthday.  Obviously that means servicing the kids; I’m in no way suggesting that we just say, “OK folks, sink or swim.”, but some of the responsibility does lie with them.  If getting to school is the biggest issue then that’s what the school bus is for and districts do need to provide that service all the way through high school.  I was also careful above to use the word “completing” rather than “graduating” as getting to 18 would constitute “completing” for the purposes of this discussion even if someone does not graduate.

            • but your ignorance on these issues doesn’t help.

              <

              p>First, your bus suggestion won’t work.  Do you know how much it costs for one bus?  Try $40K in my district.  Now, are you going to drive a bus around to all the boyfriends’ and girlfriends’ houses to pick up kids?  Where, exactly, are these kids going to get the bus?  And who is going to get them up for the bus?  Teenagers struggle with early mornings, some more than others.  No motivation to get up means you miss your bus. And what if a kid lives within the minimum distance?  BTW, districts only need to provide a bus for kids who live beyond the minimum distance from the school, and that varies between municipal and regional districts.

              <

              p>The bus is the least of these kids’ problems.  

              <

              p>Second, “completing” doesn’t mean anything.  What does their “completion” mean?  Did they or did they not fulfill the requirements of graduating from high school?  If they did, give them a diploma.  If they didn’t, then what?  An MCAS-failure style “certificate of completion”?  What do you do with this category on a transcript?  What does “completion” mean to an employer?  It means they didn’t graduate.   Now what?  

              <

              p>  

              • One way or the other (and I’m receptive to any proposals for a solution) we need to get to the “Yes We Can” point on this continuum.  A blog is hardly the place to flush out all the nuances and scenerios that would need to be considered in crafting real legislation.  I want kids to stay in school until they are 18, and do what it takes from a policy and funding standpoint to get them there.  Graduation is a different discussion, though certainly both valid and related.  For the purposes of this and another current thread about raising the dropout rate, raising the age of mandatory attendance is my focus.  Parents are responsible for raising their kids and they need to answer to the justice system if necessary.  Courts and DSS must have the latitude to decide each case within the policy and legal frameworks set up.

                • Being a crappy parent is not against the law.  And taking children out of dysfunctional homes often causes more problems than it solves–AmberPaw can tell you all about that.  Certainly that approach is terrible with teenagers.

                  <

                  p>There is a movement among progressive high schools to develop programs that actually get kids out of the building, not into it.  We’re moving down that road in my school.  Some kids, especially the school-to-career kids, do better outside the classroom.  The plan is to expand that model for a wider group of students.  Seniors don’t need to be in the building, and sometimes getting them OUT of the building is exactly with they and the school needs.  Work experience, internships, co-ops are all ways to broaden the classroom experience in meaningful ways.  Capturing some of these at-risk kids by tailoring an individualized instructional program would be orders of magnitude more effective than an arbitrary law that raises the age from 16 to 18.  A new law is not going to meet the needs of a single kid.  

                • …technical high schools.  We have those and that’s fine.  If being a bad parent isn’t against the law then maybe it ought to be.  I’ve heard more stories than I care in the teachers lounges where I have substitute taught about kids with parents who have no business being parents and it shows.  The teachers swing back and forth between wanting to knock some sense into the kids to feeling terrible that a kid is in a situation beyond their control, depending on what side of the bed the teacher woke up on that morning.  I’m wondering if our value systems are diverging too much to go further.  I think what you describe above may have some merit, but I will come right out and say in my ideal world every able-bodied and able-minded 18-year-old graduates from high school and is prepared for college.

                • These would be integrated programs in an academic high school, often placing a student in a location that offers experience in the student’s planned major in college.  These sorts of programs also help students decide whether or not the area of study they plan on is a good fit.  Over 40% of kids who enroll in college do not finish within five years, and that number is greater for males than for females.  

                  <

                  p>Preparing kids for college is a laudable goal; however, not all kids are ready at 18 to go to college and some are much better suited to post-graduate technical educational programs.  Helping students figure out what they are going to do when they graduate is integral in keeping them engaged in what they need to be doing while they’re in high school.  That’s why out-of-building programs are an increasingly essential component of the contemporary high school.  

                • In fact I think a lot of students from across the spectra of ability and interests could benefit from what you describe.  Just a couple of notes.  I want kids to be prepared for college so that no option is closed to them even if that’s not ultimately what they choose.  Also “post-graduate technical educational programs” in my mind falls into the category of “college” for the purpose of these comments.

    • …is exactly what I am advocating.  Why shouldn’t the state get involved as necessary at the high school level as it does at middle school?

      • While you say there is “no excuse” for not finishing high school, it is almost impossible for a homeless kid to finish – and NO there are no such dormitories and almost NOT shelter beds or services for these kids.  AND not all kids are ready to graduate at 18 either!  My own son, despite being very bright, did not graduate high school until age 20 – he was brutally bullied in our public middle school, so much so that he required hospitalization and was diagnosed with PTSD [and he at least believed his life was at risk there].

        <

        p>Tales of the city, my friend.  

        <

        p>Did you follow the link and read the article from the Lowell Sun?  I can tell you the situation is the same in Lawrence, in Lynn, in Holyoke – not just Lowell or Boston.

        <

        p>And you also assume that all of these kids have “families” – some were taken from their families by the state, parental rights terminated, and MADE into legal orphans.

        <

        p>Some have incarcerated parents, never knew their fathers [IF their mothers even knew who the biological father WAS in the first place – THAT is not always known] or sadly – both parents are incarcerated, or one is, and the other dead of HIV or an over dose.

        <

        p>There is not housing at job centers of through high schools for homeless kids – and my understanding is of those who WERE in foster care, at most 10% sign back in for extra time in the tender care of the Department of Children and Families.  There is NOT funding to house all of the kids who turn 18 in foster care.

        <

        p>Now you tell me – what is more important – the future of these thrown away kids, or corporate welfare?  

        • I assume we are in agreement on what the priorities should be.  I didn’t at all assume the kids have families, which is why I’m saying the schools need to be a point of contact.  We need to get to the point where kids know that regardless of family situation (or lack thereof) they can walk into the local public school and get help.

  3. When I was a kid—a lot of young men and women went into the service at age 17. I’m tired of the hand wringing of people looking for a handout rather than earning their way though life. I have no idea what you folks think the service is like. The USAF and USCG are simply civilian occupations where you wear a uniform—you have a better chance of being run over by a fork lift or drowning or even food poisonning than being shot or blown up. The US Army and the USMC are a different ball game, but keep in mind that 60% of any service are support troops. The worst thing you are liable to have inflicted on you is a paper cut.

    <

    p>The service will give you three hots and a cot and an education—or more if you want to work hard.

    • WHERE have you been, anyway?  Sure that is an option, and when a kid “can” do that, great.  If you have asthma, learning disabilities, can’t read, your eyesight is too bad, you have a mental health diagnosis {etc.} – hint – the army, navy, etc. won’t take you either.

      <

      p>One young man I knew, desperate to better himself, enlisted though they should not have let him do so – he got a hernia, needed survery three times per the service but tried to keep on going…and had a breakdown both mentally and physically and went straight from Fort Drum to a lock ward.  Today he is receiving total disability from the army.  Great result, right?  One size fits all indeed.

      <

      p>Gotta say, MCRD, between your “one size fits all” view of humanity, and a total lack of empathy or understanding of the fact that human beings come in different models, you are not someone I have any desire to meet.

      <

      p>I gather if you view someone to be sub-standard, let ’em starve.  Let them lie down next to the road and just fade away – don’t help the sick.  Don’t feed the hungry.  Nope.  Let ’em drop dead and improve the human race.  If THAT wasn’t what you were trying to day, well, try again.

      <

      p>THAT is what you said.

      <

      p>I understand you can afford to go spend $12,000 at your whim in New Hampshire to save $600 [from an earlier post of yours] – must be nice to have the fat government pension you have and be able to afford retirement.

      <

      p>Try the dreaded private sector, do.  And maybe you would gain some understanding of just how hard these legal orphans have it – and how few can make it in the armed service without serious repair work first…if at all.

      • One young man I knew, desperate to better himself, enlisted though they should not have let him do so – he got a hernia, needed survery three times per the service but tried to keep on going…and had a breakdown both mentally and physically and went straight from Fort Drum to a lock ward.  Today he is receiving total disability from the army.  Great result, right?  One size fits all indeed.

        <

        p>If anyine had a hernia—they would be dropped and discharged for reasons of physical unsuitability. Aforementioned went to a lovked ward?  If that is the case, aforementioned had problems long before he/she entered military service—like that nut that raped and murdered that Iraqi family.

        <

        p>

        must be nice to have the fat government pension you have and be able to afford retirement

        <

        p>I worked 25 years at one and 28 years at the other and two wars—. Pray tell—-should I have become a double amputee to salve your distaste for someone who actually “earns” a pension and can walk and talk after thirty years?

        <

        p>

        Try the dreaded private sector

        Amber—are you slipping your gears? I have a combined total of over twenty years working in the DPS. I was an RN for fifteen years and was employed in mutiple civilian occupations as well over the course of my lifetime—and I now “volunteer”—for gratis—like driving cancer victims to Dana Farber.

        <

        p>These young adults and adults that you anguish about are likely the end result of human beings who should never have been allowed to have children as the result of their own shortcomings. Dysfunctional people have dysfunctional children. I am of the opinion that society should do the utmost to assist these children in every manner possible up to age eighteen—after that—you are on your own except in the event of physical limitations (actual ones)
        or IQ’s which would legally meet the standards of being unable to function independently in society. Because an adult has “issues” that is no excuse. We have motels in Massachusetts which are full of single women with multiple children who have “issues.”  

    • Just asking.  Before driving that fork lift, or being a support troop don’t you have to pass basic in any branch of the service?

      <

      p>Also, did you forget Halliburton [et.al] and how much of the 60% that just does support is now outsourced….

      • Clinton took an axe to DoD in 1992—that’s how he balanced the budget. A little know fact: in 1993, if we had gone to war we would have been screwed. We had zero $$$$ for fuel and ammunition. We were out of arty rounds, small arms ammo and zero fuel for training pilots, and ships stopped going to sea.

        <

        p>The consequence? DoD said OK—-we’ll begin to shed jobs like cooks, supply, construction, engineers, higher levels of repair etc and we’ll contract it out on an as needed basis. ERGO you have companies that sprung up like Halliburton and Black Water because the morons in congress can’t see beyond the ends of their own noses and listen to other dumb asses and then cozy up to lobbyists employed by ancillary defense support companies who charge and DEMAND exhorbitant compensation. Gee congress—nice work you A-Holes!  Meanwhile back at the ranch—we have a military ground force that would now cease to be able to operate if companies like Blackwater and Halliburton ( staffed 90% by military retirees and former military members) took a powder when the shoot’n really starts. Congress and Slick Willy really showed us how to save a buck. Now it costs us twice as much to prosecute a war. God, what a bad movie!

        • Thanks for the clarification and admitting the two fat pensions you get.

          <

          p>Given that most of the low-wattage support work has been oursourced in the armed services, just where are those 18 year olds supposed to apply and work, MCRD??

          <

          p>HINT:  In the private sector “pensions” went the way of the DoDo and passenger pigeon.  It doesn’t matter how hard or long you work in the dreaded private sector, “friend” – there ARE no pensions anymore.  I don’t mind that you are not a double-amputee or single-amputee for that matter.  I do mind that you take your two fat taxpayer funded pensions for granted and then pontificate against the throw away kids and collective responsibility for them.

          <

          p>Also, adolescent brain development research has demonstrated that most people’s brains are not done developing at age 18; in fact the age 16-22 for most people is a time of rapid brain development and instability similar to the early elementary school years.

          <

          p>Most people are NOT adults at 18, frankly, which may be why it is possible to brain wash 17-19 year olds into acting like cannon fodder!  Or for smooth-talking older men to hop in the sack with stupid, immature 17-19 year old women who wind up abandoned single mothers.  

          <

          p>Hey – here is one for you to shoot off your mouth about – WHERE are the fathers?  WHERE is the training on how to father going to come from???  Heck, just blame the stupid women who trust those lying men, why not?  

          <

          p>One thing we do agree about, though.  In 25 years of divorce work, I would say 80% of all divorces and kids who wind up in care there is some level of alcohol abuse, sometimes combined with illegal drugs.  

    • is that the only support you’d advocate for an “orphan” who wants to get an education and make something of him/her self?

      <

      p>

  4. At the most local level, we can encourage our children to bring home friends from school and try to get to know the kids and their families. By being more active neighbors we are more likely to find out about local families/children in trouble. We may become someone with whom others can share troubles or worries.

    <

    p>But we are not professionals and few of us would be able to deal with complicated or longterm problems. Abuse is not always physical and may affect different people in various ways. School-centered resources might be one option to keep kids and their parents going to back to school.

    <

    p>If resources are not available or not known, vulnerable people will not be served. We can all do something on the local level. I see enough furniture set out for trash to furnish many apartments. People often throw out working appliances, dishes, and clothes because they have something better. It would be great if a list of needed items was so widely posted that folks might think twice about reusing items within the community.

    <

    p>There are many valid reasons for “having to leave home.” Families and children need more intelligent assistance than what individuals can provide. There are legal and ethical problems regarding privacy and there should be some oversight of ad hoc efforts as well to protect and encourage all involved.

    <

    p>Keep up the good work, Deb.

    <

    p>Pam

    <

    p>

  5. The main cause of divorce and unwed parenthood is a bad employment picture for young men. There is no reason to keep the man around in your house if he has no job — he’s just consuming resources for your kid.

    <

    p>Weepy stories like this aren’t going to fix it.

    • Oh ya—another is if your spouse turns into a fat ass six months after vows or is an unrepetent a-hole. More women marry men who are nothing but pond scum—-but “it will be different after we are married”.    Right!

    • Are you really saying all men are good for is providing an income?!  That sounds like the flip side of the same coin as saying all women are good for is getting pregnant and satisfying a man’s “needs”, and IMO just about as offensive.

  6. I think that school should start later in the day.  I have watched the evolution of my children rising at 5 am as infants, to 11:00am as teens(which I let them do). Studies show that teens are change biologically in way that make them want to stary up later and sleep later.

    <

    p>I think if just school start times were changed, there may be a huge improvement in attendance. This could be a simple solution that would cost nothing.

    <

    p>

    Backgrounder: Later School Start Times

    The School Start Time Issue
    Adolescent sleep deprivation is largely driven by a conflict between teens’ internal biological clocks and the schedules and demands of society. Therefore, it makes sense to look at school start times, which set the rhythm of the day for students, parents, teachers and members of the community at large.

    Even without the pressure of biological changes, if we combine an early school starting time–say 7:30 am, which, with a modest commute, makes 6:15 am a viable rising time–with our knowledge that optimal sleep need is 9 1/4 hours, we are asking that 16-year olds go to bed at 9 pm. Rare is a teenager that will keep such a schedule. School work, sports practices, clubs, volunteer work, and paid employment take precedence. When biological changes are factored in, the ability even to have merely ‘adequate’ sleep is lost,” Carskadon explains.

    ……

    “Given that the primary focus of education is to maximize human potential, then a new task before us is to ensure that the conditions in which learning takes place address the very biology of our learners.”

    Mary A. Carskadon, PhD, Director of E.P. Bradley Hospital Research Laboratory and professor in Department of Psychiatry and Human Behavior at Brown University School of Medicine

    • as well, they are even more inclined to have sleepless nights.  Why does school start so early anyway, who is benefiting from that?

      • There are several reasons why the older students start earlier than the younger students, but the most common issues are as follows:

        <

        p>First, it is often dark when the high school kids are walking or getting the bus.  We don’t want elementary school children walking in the dark or standing waiting for buses in the dark for obvious safety reasons.  

        <

        p>Second, working parents often depend upon older children to be home to receive the younger children.  While this was not a factor in the original design of start times, it is nevertheless a reality that must be dealt with if start times are to change.  

        <

        p>Third, older students often play several sports for the school and/or need to work, so high school students dismiss in the mid-afternoon so that all of this can be managed and still have time for homework.  Younger students do not have these demands, so they can go to school later in the afternoon.   Students are often dependent on athletic scholarships, so providing talented athletes an opportunity to play is important for both developmental and financial reasons.

        <

        p>Yes, the science says that the older students should have the later start times, but until we figure out a way to manage all of these issues, it’s unlikely that we’ll see a wholesale shift in thinking.  

        <

        p>  

        • and needs to slow down. Students who work, and do sports after school are doing too much.  Of course, there is so much variety in the ways of living in our society.  Inner city, some poor some not, and some homeless.  Rural and suburban living, some poor, some not. All of which have different needs entirely.

          <

          p>School should be the priority. Physical health and optimal
          attention span is being compromised so students can work, get athletic scholarships, and babysit for parents.  Homework alone can take up a good portion of a student after school time.  

          <

          p>I realize the topic here is homeless kids and their needs.
          Later start times would definitely benefit them. I think the idea mentioned of dormitories for these students is an excellent idea. Passing grades in school could be a criteria for them to keep this roof over their head.

          • Students often work because they need to save money to go to college.

            <

            p>Student often participate in athletics because they are hopeful this will help them get money to go to college.

            <

            p>Families depend on older students because they have to.  They need food on the table.

            <

            p>Are you really suggesting that the vast majority of students’ needs are unimportant?  

            <

            p>Passing grades won’t mean shit if they can’t get themselves educated, and that means paying tuition and making sure they can leave their homes and siblings to do so.  

            • needs are unimportant.  I’m saying exactly the opposite.
              But I will say that I have no idea how inner-city life works.

              <

              p>A poor student would qualify for financial aid in Massachusetts. I don’t think they have to worry about
              scholarships or saving for college. A lower income middle class student would not qualify for financial aid.  So the work/athletics thing I would imagine would apply to middle class students whose parents are not interested in seeing them into their future.  

              <

              p>Most of these issues stem from parents not stepping up to the plate, as usual.  My daughter did not qualify for financial aid not because of her income, but because of our/her parents income.  We are middle class parents.  We have taken on the burden of her student loans because we feel it is our responsibility to send her off into society as an educated, self-reliant, productive individual.  She did work part-time in her senior because she wanted a car, and needed the money to support it.  But it was very part-time.  Maybe 10 hours a wk.  

              <

              p>My daughter was 11 years old when my son was born.  As easy and convenient as it would have been for me to make my daughter babysit her brother after school and during the summer,  I decided it was better for her not to have this expectation put on her.  I put him in child care while I was at work so she could enjoy her youth, and focus her attention on her school work, her part-time job, and her future.  

              <

              p>It’s pretty clear that quite often, teens are not only left to fend for themselves, but often use their own time to support parents while trying to get ahead in their own lives.  Something is very wrong about that.

              • I was 10 years old when my sister was born.  When I was 14, my mother went to college.  She graduated with her teaching degree the same year I graduated high school.  I was expected to make dinner a certain number of nights, and do a certain amount of babysitting.  I learned how to cook, to feel competent, and to feel like I was making a contribution.  Did I resent it at the time?  You bet I did.

                <

                p>My parents did pay for me to go to college and live in a dorm after that, as long as it was a state school and I took responsibility for contributing at least 10% by working.

                <

                p>Like all homes, mine was not perfect, to be sure.  But with hindsight, as much as I resented having to do those things when I was 14-17, (I graduated high school at 17) I am grateful with the hindsight of a 61 year old.

                <

                p>My own father had his first job doing deliveries at age 5, and dropped out of high school to help support six brothers and sisters after his father died when he was 16.  The combination of being protective and teaching responsibility was something I resented growing up, but BOY do I value it now.

                <

                p>However, each family and each teenager is different.  What turned out right for me might not be right for your daughter.

                • I supported my parents when I was a teenager too. My younger sister was my responsibility much of the time. In some cases it is a necessity.  My parents were poor. In those days, I don’t think there was even such a thing as child care.  Moms simply stayed home with their children.
                  I was 13 when my mother went back to work, and I became my sister’s keeper for the rest of my teenage years.

    • Oh ya—-I forgot—Asians are biologically different—-they work harder. It’s now un PC to work hard in America.

      • The Japanese school day lasts from roughly 8:30 AM to 3:30 PM.  They do, however, go to school on Saturdays from 8:30 to about 1 pm.  High school is not compulsory in Japan, and they must pass an exam to enter.  

        <

        p>Please provide a link if you have proof otherwise.  Thanks.    

        • And given the problems rife in the Japanese education system (suicide rates spring to mind) that’s a poor model to copy.

          <

          p>The Finnish system, on the other hand….

  7.  I’m sorry, that’s all you dems are.
    I have taken teens and younger siblings into my life. And always been better for it. I once had my 14 yo friend (then) offer me his little brother to adopt. Sidelight here: Wonderful Joe O’Brien (running for mayor of Worcester) knew about them too. They are 28 and 21 now. And doing well. STOP TALKING AND START DOING! Your rhetoric is wasted on me. Forgive my caps here. ALL SINCERITY INTENDED! Sorry Miss Amber, no disrespect intended towards you.

    • I guess it takes a lobbyist and big bucks to get an issue taken care of – HINT foster kids don’t have lobbyists at all.

      <

      p>They just fall off a cliff at 18, mostly.

    • …but this sounds like a variation on the “let charity take care of it” argument.  A couple of kids were fortunate that you were willing and able to help out, but it takes a change in public policy and more funding to fix the wider problem.

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