Notes from the Senate candidates’ environmental forum today

notes on environmental league of MA forum.

standouts out front – all pags all the time

opening statements: entirely predictable.  pags was “for climate change.”  not quite what he meant to say.

q1 beth daley to cap. ted k agst cape wind. all candidates for it.  wind projects thwarted by local oppo.  ma ranks 32 in US.  should gov’t have more power to overrule local oppo?

cap: no, i don’t.  believe that local auth should have reasonable authority to control quality of life.  nantucket sound is appropriate.  i also believe in enviro justice.  always ends up that worst items end up in poorest areas. never in wealthiest areas. if you take away some local control, dooming poorest in our society to bear brunt of burden.  burden should be spread out.  enviro justice requires some degree of local input.  shouldn’t be determinative.

coak: we need both centralized way forward and local input. need to streamline approval.  

kz: “my answer is yes.” fed gov’t should have more power. this is a crisis.  we have to deal with it.  cape wind stalled for years.  need to move aggressively on this.

pags: need local control but has to be streamlined.  shouldn’t be able to delay 10 years.

q2 sasha pfeiffer to coak.  green jobs.  deval spent big $ re green jobs, but evergreen is taking jobs to china.  what to do?

coak: MA can be leader in R&D – green jobs, enviro is new frontier. want to keep R&D and manufacturing here.  learn this lesson painfully.  at federal level can provide tax incentives, credits.  in MA, if we want to be the leader, can’t have businesses taking fed $ and then leave.  

kz: reason they’re moving to china is the companies are not sustainable. 1. fair trade agmt with china. 2. proposing clean energy institute, like NIH – president of MIT endorsed.  Feds have pool of $ to invest, but not the lead investor – in partnership following private investors, VCs.  then state is not stuck having put a lot of public $ at risk.

pags: we have not invested in clean tech as much as we should have.  have to have agreements where companies stay for finite period of time, subsidies for producing product, getting it to a certain stage.  otherwise they will lose $.

cap: these jobs are leaving because of trade and tax policy.  we don’t have fair trade.  every business is encouraged to form off-shore – it’s insane.  have been trying for years to change it.

q3: BU sr [there was a Boston University senior on the panel whose name I never quite caught] to kz: electrification coalition – idea is to get more green cars on road.  asking feds for >$100M over 8 years.  but lead company tanked in stock mkt.  how much is too much to invest?

kz: proposing a new clean energy institute.  like NIH.  public/private partnership investing strategy.  following private sector leads – their money is at risk as well as taxpayer $.  also proposing energy bonds, like war bonds.  a way for all citizens to say they want clean energy.  this is a way for american to be big citizens – invest that money through clean energy institute.  challenge is understanding the market.  gov’t can’t lead, but can support.  a 4-stage process – the big challenge is getting from pilot stage to market stage.  huge investment needed to get products to market.  public/private partnership is the way to do it.

pags: most successful ec dev programs marry private capital with opportunities to get public capital.  create energy bank that would lend to these companies, but then market decides.  create something like research triangle park in NC for energy.

cap: support investment in basic research, but concerned about applied research – that’s what private $ is for.  very dangerous – end up picking winners and losers.

coak: one problem is that batteries are expensive.  gov’t can support research, encourage scientific community to address these questions.  but scientific progress isn’t always in a clear line.

daley to pags: how would you vote if nuclear power stays in climate bill?

pags: would vote no. nuclear can stand on its own.  a big problem.  84% of our energy is fossil fuels.  have to look at cap&trade or carbon taxes.  have to get everybody on board to do it – if we do it ourselves, we’ll be uncompetitive.  wouldn’t subsidize nuclear power – let private enterprise do it.  it’s competitive.  don’t support offshore drilling.  key is to end dependence on oil.  need alternatives.

cap: depends what else is in the bill.  prefer carbon tax to cap&trade.  house bill is progress but could be a lot better.  had to put nuclear power in not because of what we wanted, but had to get votes out of south and SE.  had to throw things in for coal and steel.  needed that to get moderate Dems on board.  if the only problem is nuke, would vote yes.  but that’s unlikely.

coak: about 30% of power is nuke.  concerns are safety, cost, waste.  have had problems since 1970s on all issues.  would look very closely at bill.  nuclear can’t be off the table, but would focus on those issues.  No on offshore drilling.

kz: if Kerry and Reid and Obama say it’s the best we can do, I’ll vote for it.  against subsidizing nuclear, but would support.  it’s in because of PACs and lobbyists.  asks coak what lobbyists contributing would want you to do?

coak: as AG i’ve always disclosed $ and make decisions on merits.

kz: we have to tell the voters how we’d vote.  if obama, kerry, reid say it’s the best we can do, i’ll vote yes.

coak: bills don’t come fully formed from heaven.  will work hard to improve it.  that is i understand the work of a senator.

pfeiffer to pags: MA is part of RGGI.  goal is to cut carbon emissions by 10%. critics say goal is too modest.  

pags: issues are (1) RGGI is only a region, and (2) companies are struggling due to cost.  have to look at how to phase this in.  we should charge for cap&trade to make it more like a carbon tax.  have to phase in, look industry by industry.  have to give business enough time to react.  this is 50-year program.  at 16% alt fuels today.  need to set a goal, start moving that way.

cap: have to shoot as high as you can get, but you can’t get there.  we can’t control emissions from midwest that pollute us. should shoot for realistic ranges.  on federal level, don’t start off being “reasonable” on CAFE standards – that lets us end up somewhere in the middle.

coak: have been involved in MA support for RGGI, we support.  has appropriate incentives.  have to have firm standards.  should have at least 1/3 incentives going back to states to invest in efficiency.  

kz: RGGI is terrific – good leadership from gov.  happened because bush admin wouldn’t take climate change seriously. PACs, lobbyists have watered down national standards in waxman-markey, and now it’s stalled in the senate.  good that we’re leading regionally.  citizens have to say we need this, it’s a crisis, have to get it done.

pfeiffer: clarify.

cap: want a straight-up carbon tax rather than c&t.  gave away auctions because we needed the votes.  like it or not, reps from coal districts advocate for jobs in their districts.

coak: c&t was a good compromise.  important to give allowances to states as we move toward auctions.

kz: mike is right about carbon tax, but c&t is a massive giveaway.  $130M last year in lobbyist money.  people are investing, getting a return.  70% giveaway is crazy.  to get bill through, had to give away.  will fight from day 1 to take allowances away.

pags: europe pioneered system.  total giveaway
didn’t work; 70% a good compromise.  goal is reducing carbon emissions.  have to get down the road, make realistic compromises.  have learned from european experience.  favor cap&trade because that’s the internationally accepted system.

BU sr to kz: green issues see delays – burden falling on future generations than if we start now, work in smaller chunks.  for pushing things back given economic situation?

kz: not for pushing it back.  thru green energy, clean jobs can get economic development.  you are at risk of growing up in climate in crisis.  we all have to do more.  changing 1 light bulb takes 600,000 cars off the road.  (really??)  big diff in this race: i’m the only person who’s been a movement leader.  citizens have to join with enviro leadership to create a new movement.  need a citizen movement.  i’ve done that – i know how to build citizen movements.  will bring together leaders, citizens to strategize on how to get this done.  can be done, but have to raise alarm bells.

pags: now have 84% fossil fuels.  like waxman-markey # of 40% emissions.  have to start now – can’t wait. 4 ways. efficiency (via technology); education; renewable sources.  have to set goal, start now.

cap: not for waiting for anything.  at the same time, job is to do as best as I can to push ball as far down the field as i can.  started enviro mvt in my generation; still at the beginning.  reality is, whatever we do, you’ll have to pick up on this and other issues.  

coak: we are behind. should’ve started yesterday, and didn’t.  we began in our generation, but dropped the ball. 1980s – huge cars when gas prices dropped.  big mistake is that people won’t take climate change seriously.  people are back-burnering it.  need every minute to get solutions.  

braude: what is your person vehicle

cap, coak: ford escape

kz: 15 year old toyota wagon

pags: hybrid lexus, 10year old lexus.

daley: greenest personal habit.

coak: made real effort in campaign to be green – recycle, more email than paper, work with landlord to cut down on water bottles.  personally, recycle in medford, put composter in back yard this year.  more conscious than in the past.  living in mystic river watershed, realize it takes everybody.

kz: listen to 7-year-old daughter.  recycle, try to be efficient (turning lights off), campaign is carbon-neutral – hybrid car for campaign, bought carbon offsets.  city year helped start recycling program in boston – piloted in JP with mayor flynn.  now going for 20 years in boston.

pags: recycle, compost, radiant heat, paperless in campaign, recycling.  important to support businesses that take energy off the grid.  education: when we grew up, we were not educated about this – our kids understand this.

cap: everything i can do.  recycling for years.  light bulbs, setback thermometers (?), but inefficient heating boilers in home (not enough $ to fix).  no campaign car.

pfeiffer to cap: foxwoods is despised by enviros – needed tons of new infrastructure.  if destination casinos come to MA, what to do about enviro impact?

cap: building codes.  if they have casinos, i’m not for them in the middle of nowhere. have them in developed places for those reasons, and should be attracting people who are already here.  

coak: on any new development in MA, lege should look at enviro impact. important that MA have smart growth for any new development.  

kz: one of many reasons why i oppose casinos in MA.  also creates $3 in costs for $1 of revenue; not good jobs.  casino industry is one of the only industries that is not nationally regulated.  need national casino regulatory commission.  so we could use fed enviro law to stop casinos.  but $250M from gambling industry to avoid regulation.

pags: reluctantly support casinos for jobs. build them in mixed-use area to avoid enviro impact.  

BU sr (sidney lupkin?) to coak: violators see enviro fines as cost of doing business.  how do we do a better job?

coak: took this very seriously in AG’s office.  reinvigorated enviro crimes strike force.  seek civil penalties when appropriate.  have targeted worst offenders for criminal violations.  when you send a message that you’ll pay a cost, you will hopefully change behavior.  try to expose criminal violators to jail time.  DEP has enforcement authority re smaller violations.  staffing for enviro police has been subject to budget cuts.  has to be a gov priority, but tough when funds are tight.

kz: have to do a better job via higher fees, greater penalties, stronger enforcement. also, citizen power – transparency, put all violators in internet, in newspapers.  need to reward good behavior, punish bad behavior by changing buying patterns.

pags: beef up enforcement, resources; higher penalties; criminal penalties.  enforce all the way up and down.

cap: organization, publication.  don’t sit around waiting. as mayor, created own enviro strike force.  we stopped illegal dumping in somerville. have to prioritize. don’t have to go after everybody.  first line is prevention; last is enforcement.

daley: energy efficiency.  know that MA programs save $3 for every $1 invested.  support a 1/3 efficiency requirement for electric utilities, like gas companies have?

kz: mckinsey study showed better efficiency leads to 23% reduction. should have same system for electric utilities.  don’t know if 1/3 is right #, but should have a standard.  reward solar panels, weatherizing homes – rebates, and you should get the $ instead of the utils.

pags: yes, would have the standard.  not sure of the exact #.  couple with education, smart grid.

cap: yes – used to have similar programs.  yes for anyone in energy field.  individuals should be encouraged.  not just through util cos.

coak: yes – as well as smart metering and other consumer behavior.  

pfeiffer to pags: enviro justice.  tends to be lower income communities where you find transfer stations etc.  but it’s better to concentrate polluters.  how would you balance need to treat communities fairly with need to concentrate?

pags: have to have enviro justice.  gov has to look at sites; need some state and fed oversight.  concentration: tough thing – like military bases.  independent commission to balance out locations?

cap: in the 11 years, no enviro injustice in my district – i wouldn’t stand for it.  we cleaned up the affected areas.  enviros tend to forget about this issue. if burden is reasonably spread out, it’s fair thing to do.  local opposition killed idea for recycling plant in somerville that cap backed.

coak: accepting concept of enviro justice is a step forward. don’t find a lot of support. we will have waste … a technological challenge.

kz: have worked in communities of color, low-income my whole life.  side with enviro justice. worked with van jones, majora carter. finally leaders of color and enviro movement are working together. helped to build a coalition for green jobs. i have a track record on this.

BU sr to cap: support heavy taxes on imports that did not sign a copenhagen-type agreement re emissions?

cap: yes. good policy.  if we sign on and then don’t penalize other countries, we put ourselves at a disadvantage.

coak: yes.

kz: agree with mike. an easy yes.  problem is in congress – should have gotten climate change done by now.  great leadership from kerry, markey.  special interests slowing it down.  would help encourage us to sign it.  obama struck great deal with president of china.  

pags: need multilateral approach.  have to get house in order here; europe’s already done it; #1 pol
luter in the world is china.  we have to make their products more expensive.  carrots and sticks.

daley to kz: furry animal question.  fishermen, beach goers see enviro protections as out of whack.  seal populations have exploded; fishermen complain that they eat too many fish.  taking over beaches.  if it’s proven that seals harm economy or beaches, reduce protections?

kz: daughter would never forgive me.  answer is no.  have to find right balance – protect fishing industry, but enviro protections are there for a reason.   believe in strong enviro enforcement.  i’m for seals.

pags: maybe bring sharks in.  🙂  could not consider unless a gigantic problem.  have to manage fishing beds, but unless seals are crisis, don’t support.

cap: not at crisis stage – but fishermen are an endangered species.  answer is not yet, but if it’s negatively impacting fishing industry or tourism, have to consider it, as long as seals are not endangered.  balance has to understand that real people are involved here.

coak: agree that it’s all about balance.  we share planet.  guess is that seal population is out of control because something else is out of whack.  we have thrown environment out of whack.  population control for certain mammals e.g. coyotes is appropriate.

braude: anything any of your opponents said that is wrongheaded/dangerous?

kz: if you really want to be a reformer, shouldn’t take PAC/lobbyist $ , and doing fundraisers with them.

cap: does that include lobbyist for sierra club?

kz: yes

pfeiffer: who would come close to enviro hero?

cap: john audubon? haven’t got a clue. birds wouldn’t sit still to be painted.

coak: jim milkey – head of AG enviro division when she came in.  made argument in Mass v. EPA.  taught me a lot.  now app ct judge in MA.

kz: rachel carson (silent spring author), al gore – heroic work in raising alarm bells.

pags: wrote down al gore (so no one could claim copying).

final q BU sr to pags: public transit – how do you get people to leave cars at home?

pags: have to improve mass transit dramatically.  have underinvested in it.  d’alessandro report shows underinvestment.  in other countries, have invested heavily in mass transit, and it works.  need to fix.

cap: light rail, commuter rail are keys. have to expand.  have to stop complaining about subsidies – it’s worth it.  tried to get money in cap&trade.

coak: europe has good system of rail, buses.  we went a different way.  people love their cars, and we haven’t supplied infrastructure. money has to go in including south coast rail.  fed, state investment.

kz: japan has incredible bullet train. dukakis great leader on this.  should listen to him on rail.  cap is right – should subsidize it.  could work here, if we had strategy around it.

pop quiz: carbon sequestration

coak: related to clean coal.  problem is that it’s expensive, haven’t figured it out yet.

smart grid:

cap: ability to move electricity more efficiently.

kz: connecting our entire electrical system to improve efficiency.

closing stmt:

kz: put out comprehensive clean energy program on website today.  i am the only movement leader on this stage.  we need a citizen movement to say climate change is a crisis.  have to get voice of the people in.  i know how to do that.  join me in a cause to reclaim our environment for our state, country, world.

pags: got into race because we are facing several crises that affect our children.  enviro, jobs, health care.  my record is solving problems on the ground, job by job, business by business.  have worked with mspcc for 10 years.  built many businesses from ground up.  25 years on the ground experience.

coak: has to be high priority issue.  grew up in berkshire county – first DC experience was on PCBs with silvio conte.  climate has to be a priority.  have spent time as AG being educated.

cap: important for everyone to educate us. we can’t be on top of all these things.  but you need someone in DC who is #1 your friend, #2 helping you translate your desires goals into action, you’re doomed to failure.  failure not an option.  climate bill we have is barely good enough.  may have to accept half a loaf.  might have to accept it, and then take the next step.  too important, have to be realistic, the way washington works.