Please allow me to correct an earlier post regarding Tuesday’s vote in the Judiciary Committee on Governor Patrick’s crime bill, An Act to Reduce Firearm Violence, H. 4102.
I am Nancy Robinson, quoted in the Globe story on the committee’s vote. I run Citizens for Safety, a statewide organization working to combat illegal gun trafficking.
My coalition has been involved in advocacy efforts to pass the Governor’s crime bill, and we followed last Tuesday’s vote very closely.
Senator Creem did not botch the vote. It was the committee’s co-chair, Rep. Gene O’Flaherty, who neglected to count 2 valid votes from Senators Hart and McGee in his final tally. No one, not even Rep. O’Flaherty, disputes that the actual final vote, the one that should have been recorded, was 6-4 in favor of passing the crime bill out of committee.
Sen. Creem has long been a champion of legislation to curb the supply of illegal guns to criminals. O’Flaherty–not so much. To lay the blame on Cynthia Creem is not only a distortion of the truth, it harms our current efforts to press House leadership to correct O’Flaherty’s error and move this critical piece of legislation forward.
Are you saying Cynthia reported ALL her votes in a timely fashion? Pure negligence on her part is the word spreading rapidly around “the building”. Polling committee members is perhaps the most routine function for a chairman.. The committee members are notified of the polling and told when it has to be reported to the clerk’s office.. Usually it is days if not more with the clerk receiving the official vote at the close of the business day. (4:30, I think – but they tell the legislators the exact time) In this case Creem polls the Senate committee members and reports the results to the house committee. The house chair,(in this instance Knuckles O’Flaherty)then reports the final official vote to the clerk’s office at the close of that day.
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p>Okay, every one get that?
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p>Good.
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p>Unfortunately Cynthia didn’t report the Hart and McGee vote to well past the deadline. That’s a class A no-no. The official vote had already been reported. She screwed up. It’s Like not paying taxes by April 15th. Whose fault is that?
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p>If this is true, which I believe it is, (and is probably documented somewhere) it shows negligence. How and when did she convey the votes? This is standard everyday stuff that she should not have flubbed.
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p>If these facts are true, which the legislative record should show, then shame on her.
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p>If not, then apologies from me. But I wouldn’t take that bet people.
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p>Perhaps Knuckles pulled a fast one? That would be more like it than him miscounting. What do you think Cynthia? I’d love to see that. But I don’t think I will.
Why not just do it again on Monday? If we collectively know that the votes support it 6-4 (or whatevs), why not just take another vote and verify it — and then move on appropriately?
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p>Why let arbitrary rules and gamesmanship undercut progress? Why throw yet another chip in the pile of political hackery interfering with the people’s business?
Here’s a little teaching moment.
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p>The gun bill is a tough vote that many want to avoid in election season. Because it came out unfavorably it gives good excuse for many to say it should not be moved forward because votes not there etc. etc. It is much easier now to let the bill die which is what those with opponnents would like. Did Creem do what she did intentionally?
Brookline, Newton, part of Wellesley. Newton-based primary challenger. Markets herself as a Massachusetts liberal. Told me personally a few days ago that she wanted this passed.
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p>Why would she flub it intentionally? To “take one for the team?” I don’t see it.
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p>The only things that make sense to me are (a) mistake on her part, or (b) mistake on someone else’s part, or (c) intentional malfeasance/gamesmanship on someone else’s part.
or intentional by Knuckles. But noway would that ever be allowed. Could you imagine if it were? There would miscounts every week. It insults our intelligent to expect us to believe her story.
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p>She screwed up as she tries to position herself left of her Democratic challenger.
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p>Legislative rules are not arbitrary or put in place for gamesmanship. You have to have rules that are there for everyone to follow. This makes the process fair and also allows for the proper flow of legislation. Imagine a process that allows a member to move to revote a bill because they did not like the outcome of the vote, the the whole legisaltive process would break down. The Republican minority would love this!
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p>A good and experienced legislator can use the rules to their advantage of course, but these rules are in place for the protection of the process.
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p>You cannot simply revote on a reported bill. You would have to make a motion to recomit on the House floor or move to overturn the the committee report on the House Floor.
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p>Also , the House and Senate Clerk’s office are staffed with very able and honest individuals who work hard to protect the processs and ensure that the work of both branches is completed with integrity.
Honesty and integrity.
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p>We’re not talking about forcing a re-vote where the same people will vote the same way. We’re not even talking about a re-vote where someone changed his mind.
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p>We’re talking about a clerical error. Easy to fix with a re-vote.
… not to slow down your rant, but a single member can move for reconsideration of a floor vote. It is called “Reconsideration”, and it only can be done once on each vote.
Thanks for the link to my post from yesterday. I had a hodge podge of good stuff in there besides this Creem junk. The post was dying a rapid death, but thanks to you and Nancy it lives to see another day.
AIDE: PATRICK GUN BILL TO GET SECOND CHANCE IN JUDICIARY COMMITTEE | Confusion about the fate of Gov. Deval Patrick’s gun crimes bill – rejected by a legislative committee whose vote has since been called into question – may be solved with a do-over. A House Judiciary Committee aide told the News Service Friday that controversy surrounding the committee’s vote count would be resolved by a House move to resubmit the bill to committee for a new vote. When and how the House recommits the bill is unclear, according to the aide. Legislative rules stipulate that the House may “recommit” bills to committee. Judiciary Committee aides on Tuesday reported that the governor’s bill received a 4-4 tie vote from committee members, which results in an “ought not to pass” designation from the committee. But two senators subsequently claimed they had cast votes for the bill that went uncounted and that the bill should’ve received a 6-4 favorable vote. Bills sent to the House with an unfavorable report face an additional hurdle to passage in that lawmakers often rely on committee recommendations to inform their votes. The co-chairs of the committee, Rep. Eugene O’Flaherty (D-Chelsea) and Sen. Cynthia Creem (D-Newton), traded conflicting information Tuesday about the committee’s vote, underscoring confusion surrounding the process. Aides to O’Flaherty reported the tie vote to the House clerk at 4 p.m. Tuesday, after allowing committee members five days to weigh in and cast their votes. In an email to the News Service, O’Flaherty said that when the poll closed, Creem was the only senator who had cast her vote. Creem, who voted in favor of the governor’s bill, insisted two colleagues, Sens. Jack Hart and Thomas McGee, voted to support the bill prior to the deadline. House committee aides have declined to detail how individual members voted on the proposal, information commonly divulged by other committees. Through interviews with members and aides, the News Service has independently confirmed that members in support of the bill included O’Flaherty, Rep. Christopher Speranzo (D-Pittsfield), and Sens. Creem, Hart (D-South Boston) and McGee (D-Lynn). Reps. Daniel Webster (R-Pembroke) and Lew Evangelidis (R-Holden) cast two of the four ‘no’ votes. Sens. Bruce Tarr (R-Gloucester), Steve Baddour (D-Methuen) Gale Candaras (D-Wilbraham) and Rep. Danielle Gregoire (D-Marlborough) voted to take no immediate position. Calls to the offices of Reps. Fagan, Garry, Fernandes, St. Fleur, Clark, Dwyer and Evangelidis were not immediately returned. According to the Legislature’s rules, committees are required to record committee votes and ensure that such votes “shall be available for public inspection upon reasonable notice and during regular office hours.” 11:34 A.M.
Creem didn’t report her members votes to the House Committee like she was suppose to.
What’s this about reporting someone else’s vote? How hard is it to count ten votes? When there is a committee meeting which ends in a vote doesn’t the chair simply call the roll thusly?
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p>Sen. A – aye
Sen. B – aye
Sen. C – no
Rep. D – no
Rep. E – aye
Rep. F – aye
Rep. G – no
Rep. H – aye
Rep. I – no
Rep. J – aye
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p>”By a vote of six in favor, four opposed, and no abstentions, the committee favorably reports the legislation entitled…”
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p>Really, how difficult is this?
Especially when Sen. C and Sen. B don’t get counted at all because Cynthia Creem does not report them until after the polls closed.
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p>Cynthia wants something that wasn’t there to be counted. There was no additions mistake. The woman is obviously lying. I chose that word carefully. Lying. Yup, that’s what she is doing here.
The vote was done by a poll, and not conducted in person at the end of a hearing….
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p>The committee staff would have sent a poll by email or phone to the members of the committee – The House Chair receives the votes of the House members and the Senate Chair receives the votes of the Senators.
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p>Since the the bill was filed in the House, it becomes a House bill. It was also to be reported to the House for second reading (debate)- so the committee poll tally was to be delivered to the House Chair, who would then make the favorable/unfaborable report to the House Clerk.
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p>A bill reported in the negative can only be reported to the branch in which it was originally filed. Thus the “Ought Not To Pass” report in the House.
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p>
I wasn’t aware that such a procedure was legitimate and I don’t like it. Votes should be taken by roll call in a public meeting. It’s way too easy for votes to be missed either intentionally or unintentionally by this method, not to mention my way seems more transparent.
If it helps them get more out of committee because they don’t have to be in the same place at the same time, it’s not the end of the world. As for “too easy” this is the first time a mistake has been pointed out on BMG in, well, ever so far as I know. That’s not to say that it hasn’t happened, but it doesn’t seem to be a common occurrence.
O’Flaherty is an
O’Moron who can’t count much past
0’Zero.
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p>O’mygod, can you believe that some people are so
O’uninformed that they keep re-electing this
O’Moron.
Rep Gene O’Flaherty is a very bright, conscientious and dedicated legislator.
not making sure that 6-4 is counted differently than 4-4, even if it means jumping through hoops to do something out of the norm so that decisions are made based on fact and consideration, and not gamesmanship or error.
I don’t know what happened with this vote – but if the poll was due back at 4PM and he did not have those two votes at that time as is being reported – then its not gamesmanship – its the process.
Process exists as a robust way to get the desired results. In this case, it’s clear that the desired results weren’t obtained. So, the next step in the process is to simply try it again.
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p>Note that I wrote “gamesmanship or error”. I don’t care which — I’m interested in results.
maybe the desired results were obatined – don’t forget it was a very close vote no matter whoch way you look at it!
and six members would have voted aye, then the desired results were clearly not obtained. There are lots of close votes, so that it would have been 6-4 (instead of 4-4) doesn’t mean squat. What’s important is if there was a majority in favor of passing or not. If yes, let’s get the proper vote. If not, move on.
They had FIVE days to record their votes. Typically all that means is hitting reply on your computer or having a staffer calling an office. Most polls in the State House are much shorter than that 24 hours, is much more the norm
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p>The reason you have a hard deadline is to specifically avoid a chairperson being able to say “Oh yea, so-and-so told me they were a yes” after the poll was closed… which in this instance would change the outcome.
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p>Rules are there to protect the minority. Without rules they majority can do whatever they want without any objections. Now you can point out that they broke the rules, when rules are not being adhered to… which in this case they were!
WARD3DEM wrote
Who can’t count to 6.
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p>Most pre-school kids can count to six.
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p>O’Flaherty is only bright, conscientious, and dedicated when he is repeatedly parroting the talking points of the special interests he is backing. He’s like a sock puppet without the sock.
But six didn’t vote in time, only 4 did.
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p>Blame can be spread on a lot of people here, but O’Flaherty isn’t one of them! Blame Creem. Blame the other members who didn’t reply in time. Blame the members who didn’t have the backbone to be recorded and just “reserved rights”
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p>Only 4 voted in time… how is that the Chair’s fault?
I spoke with people in Senator Creem’s office minutes after the 4 PM deadline. Based on our conversations, it’s my understanding a House aide filed the vote tally without checking with the Senate side to get their final vote count. The Senate votes were there; they just weren’t counted.
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p>Not sure why “Ernie” keeps insisting Creem is lying. What proof does he have? What’s her motivation? She’s championed this legislation for years. I don’t get his insistence that somehow she’s the culprit.
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p>Ernie seems a little over-the-top with his interpretation of events. He reminds me of the kind of boy in grade school who picks on a girl relentlessly to conceal how much he really likes her.
Cyndie Creem and her staff are in defense mode. She knew she had to report the vote by 4:00 and did not. She had already reported other votes. They screwed up. Her committee is suppose to pick up the phone before 4:00 and tell the House side her tally. Pure negligence on her part.
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p>Who are you to question what they tell you? She screwed up and is blaming someone else. She failed miserably in this little task. Because you do not work there or see the process day to day it is very easy for Cyndie to fool you.
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p>Nancy, how does it feel to be a taken as a chump by Senator Cynthia Creem? Because that is what she is doing to you. Perhaps you should ask other Sens and Reps you know.
then the obligation is to get back to the House Chairman, just as if it was Sen. Creem’s office doing the poll, it’d be the obligation to get back to them.
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p>4:01 the poll is closed. All votes not recorded don’t count.
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p>EB3’s theory on this makes the most plausible sense. No one has come out to say that they reported the vote to O’Flaherty before 4:00 and it wasn’t recorded, are they? Nope. This is all on Creem for not reporting it.
Rally at the State House at Noon this Tuesday
Count the Votes Now. Pass Governor’s Crime Bill
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p>Join Massachusetts faith and civic leaders, gun violence victims and survivors, and public safety advocates at a State House Rally at Noon Tuesday, June 15. Call on state lawmakers to count ALL the votes cast by the Judiciary Committee and advance Governor Patrick’s crime bill.
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p>Last Tuesday, the Joint Committee on the Judiciary voted in favor of Governor Patrick’s crime bill, An Act to Reduce Firearm Violence. But the vote tally was recorded incorrectly.
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p>We were robbed of a victory on the crime bill. The final vote was 6-4. It ought to count.
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p>We expect House members to set the record straight and move the crime bill out of committee.
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p>Don’t let this bill die–so our children can live.
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p>WHAT Community to gather to support Governor’s crime bill
WHERE Massachusetts State House
WHEN TUESDAY, JUNE 15 at NOON
CONTACT (617) 233-5363
odds are I’m going to happen to run into Senator Creem tomorrow (Sunday). I’ll gladly relay a question for you.
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p>1. It had better meet my standards for politeness and respectfulness.
2. I can’t control her response, so ask precisely what you’d like to know.
3. I have to remember the answer, so a question that gets a clear, precise answer is preferred.
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p>
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p>Spell it out. I’ll ask it.
How did she record the votes of the Senate members? When did she report the votes she counted to the House. When did she report the ones that did not get counted. Did she tell the house all at once or did she give it to them piecemeal. How did she report them to the house? By telephone? e-mail?
Is she saying that any committee chair can halt the process by intentionally counting wrong?
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p>What reasons did she give to Jack Hart and Tom McGee for why their vote was not counted?
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p>BTW stomv, why do you want to be my bobo? Asking Creem questions on my behalf. I don’t need you to ask Creem anything. Rather you should ask the questions for your own intellectual growth. I think you like being a used tool. Creem’s chump. Would you by a bridge from Cyndie too? Because after last weeks performance the entire legislature sees her as a nim-cum-poot who then went ahead and insulted everyone’s intelligence by attempting to throw people under the bus like a five year old blaming the baby brother for something he did.
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p>She’s afraid of her opponent and it shows. She’s running scared against a more liberal opponent. Lacking any creativity she has few things in her playbook. Reading the Globe and then filing amendments the next day based on what she read is all she’s got going.
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p>But anyway, enjoy your time with Cynthia today. You may respect her. But trust me she doesn’t respect you. Otherwise she wouldn’t look you in the eyes and lie. Like she is now.
it’s one thing to be anonymous and make general complaints. It’s another to be anonymous and make specific accusations. It’s a third thing to be anonymous, clearly have some kind of inside role, make specific accusations without any actual evidence, and be obnoxious in the process.
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p>You fall into the third category.
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p>My interest is not in being your “bobo”, but merely getting at a truth which helps me better understand if I should believe my state senator or a clearly smart and insightful anonymous jerkwad on the Internet. It seems to me that one way to do it is to ask the anonymous fellow (you) which questions to ask in public in a way that you clearly can’t or won’t.
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p>So, my interest is: put up or shut up. You’ve made some claims. I’m interested in knowing if they’re true. Since you’ve got some insider’s insight, it strikes me that you’ll know just the right questions to ask. Rather than me take an amateur’s attempt, I thought I’d ask a pro such as yourself.
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p>
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p>That you’re not interested in asking questions of Creem in an attempt to get at the truth doesn’t really surprise me; you’re style is far more Herald than Globe.
Would a face to go along with my name help? What does it matter.
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p>As for questions? Please. What is she going to say? Ask her to show you the back and forth correspondence on this, the notes, etc.
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p>And of course you can ask other senators and reps. Ask Jack Hart. See if he thinks Knuckles miscounted.
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p>There are many other sources besides the mouth of Creem.
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p>As for inside role? I know what I read in the paper and past experience. Creem’s version of events as reported in last week’s Globe is crazy talk.
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p>You assume too much Grasshopper. Inside role. Sorry dude. Just a sports fan who closely follows my sport. What I did years before does not mean I have an inside role. You agree with that, right stomv?
I’m dying to hear.
She said that Hart and McGee both followed up too, frustrated. She pointed out that Menino wants this bill, so it’s not as if Hart was up to funny business.
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p>She also pointed out that this idea that it’s either this or CORI is nonsense; both can happen. That the House side is not setting up another poll suggests that there’s somebody on the House side not interested in getting this passed, and wouldn’t speculate just whom that might be.
But if that was true, the stories on this would be front page news. A committee can’t just ignore votes. It cannot happen. Senators would be more than frustrated. This would destroy the whole system. There is no way they wouldn’t report the votes.
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p>Does that really even sound plausable to you? Two senators called to have their votes recorded and O’Flaherty just ignored them? There is such House v. Senate animosity in the building, that type of action would draw all proceedings to a halt!
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p>It just doesn’t make sense.
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p>Speaker DeLeo, magnanimously, today said that he’d be sure that this got a vote on the House floor, which leads me to believe he going to send it back to committee so they can vote again.
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p>Heh.
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p>Unfortunately – and I don’t know Senator Hart’s position on the bill – Mayor Menino is not the ubermensch of Southie or First Suffolk legislative politics.
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p>A simple comparison of primary and general election returns in the Senator’s last election against the Mayor’s preliminary and general 2009 elections reveals different, often antagonistic bases of support.
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p>Both Senator Hart and Mayor Menino are hard-working public servants, but their political bases don’t always overlap. This bit of political demographics is not exactly unknown to elected officials on the Hill.
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p>If accurately quoted, Senator Creem’s statement was (not to put too fine a point on it) bullshit, and a disservice to both men.
You have done great work on this bill and are a leader on good government issues. I am glad to see someone trying to insert some sense into this debate, as opposed to the random vilification and unsourced smears coming from EB.