Blue Mass Group

Reality-based commentary on politics.

Silence from our friends on the right

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Perhaps among the several hundred members of the site, not a single one believes that an attempted assassination of an American lawmaker was as newsworthy as, say, the statistics of pregnancies in New York (highly recommended!).  Granted, the title “politics of Massachusetts and beyond” doesn’t necessarily mean that the dominant news story of the last 24 hours is worthy of the same loving detail describing the setup of the room during the most recent Republican State Committee meeting.

Granted, the most rabid fan club of a man who was elected to the Senate backed by groups of supporters who self-organize in “brigades” across a background of camouflage may find little of interest in this story.  Perhaps the constant coverage of a bribe accepted by a city councillor is more important than a sitting Congresswoman getting shot in the head.  

I can’t understand the thinking that would lead a community of hundreds to ignore the Tuscon Massacre and very physical and literal attack on American democracy.  The most recent story is that some guy was sworn recently as state representative — another person for whom the recent events aren’t worth mentioning.  Wouldn’t being sworn in as a legislator connect with the price Congresswoman Giffords and her friends are paying right now?

Next time any conservative seeks condemnation of anything on this site, I’ll remember this.

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  1. Maybe I’m just not looking in the right places, but I’ve yet to see a single Righty express regret for their constant barrage of physical threats, overt and implied.

    <

    p>In fact, I’ve seen evidence that they’re blaming this awful shooting on us Liberals.  Sick.

    <

    p>Most of us on the Left don’t understand what we’re dealing with.  It’s not cute, cuddly, and bipartisan. It will not be stopped by appeasement.

    • I still haven’t seen any evidence that he was motivated by something from the right. His one political statement could more reliably by pinned on the Ludwig Von Mises institute rather than Sarah Palin. His behavior reminds me of a celebrity sexual stalker rather than a political terrorist.

      <

      p>You’re just trying to score points off six murders.

      • … person who had a beef with a particular elected official, and that official could have been (D) or (R).  The problem here is that this guy somehow got it into his head that bullets were the appropriate response, and the atmosphere that the right has been stoking (2nd amendment remedies, cross-hairs, ‘reload’, ‘bulls-eye’) – however intended – needs to be evaluated as part of the context in which this guy came to this decision.  Not all of the context, but certainly part – a part for which I haven’t heard any acknowledgment on.  

        • needs to be evaluated as part of the context in which this guy came to this decision.  Not all of the context, but certainly part

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          p>I haven’t heard anything about what websites he looked at, what TV or radio he consumed, I haven’t heard that he mentioned politics to anyone.  

          • …, I forgot, he’s from Arizona.  Probably didn’t hear any heated rhetoric at all, especially not in relation health care or immigration.

            • Loughner met Giffords in 2007 and he became angry at Giffords immediately because she couldn’t answer his questions about semiotics. So that was long before Sarah Palin’s nomination.

      • Crosshairs, strapping on sidearms at presidential appearances, “second amendment remedies”, that entire lot of stuff is not funny, and it can easily give people the wrong idea.

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        p>Murder is not something to be discussed casually, and certainly not by elected officials.

        • so where is the concern about this violence provoking comment made in June 2008?

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          p>

          “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia

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          p>I think Loughner was probably more motivated by this suggestion by Obama since he is as his friend described him as a “liberal pot-head”.
          As it turns, out, Loughner is an Independent, who didn’t even vote in 2010!  So much for the political motivation theory.

          <

          p>Keep grasping at straws trying to associate this communist, flag-burning, atheist whack job with the Tea Party.  Admit it, this guy is a nut, plain and simple and show some respect for those who died and were injured by refraining from politicizing something so horrendous.  

            • I just learned that the photo I posted above was a fake – he’s actually registered as an independent.  However, from his youtube videos, it appears he’s for the gold standard and against abortion – he’s certainly not a liberal!

              • Hey I’m for gold. He was for gold and silver. It’s completely different!!!!!! gah languange is currency

          • He targeted her because he disliked her politics. What difference does it make whether he voted or was an Independent?

            <

            p>I do agree this guy was pretty nuts, and does not see to be tied to any particular party. However, I still think it is perfectly valid to ask whether the blatantly militant and violent rhetoric that has recently been employed by the Right may have encouraged this guy’s violent urges.

  2. Considering that they are gabby bots about everything else, it is pretty ugly that they aren’t expressing outrage about this devastating attack on public officials and private citizens.  I guess that the death of a 9 year old child is just collateral damage that need not be mentioned either.  All of these deaths and injuries deserve a collective voice of outrage.

    <

    p>Christina Taylor Green could have been anyone’s daughter, including those who post on RedMassGroup.  Apparently death and injury is less important than TSA searches, which aroused a RedMassGroup call to Stop the Insanity.

    <

    p>I’m outraged.  I am against the death penalty, but I hope this guy gets it, and suffers along the way.  Goodbye you bastard.

  3. He invoked NATO-esque language saying that an attack on one member of Congress is an attack on all members, and he’s right.  Capitol Police are urging all members to be mindful of their safety and this incident is an attack on democracy itself.

    <

    p>That being said, I’m a little reluctant to pile on the righties and insist they trip over each other to see who can condemn it the loudest.  I know we resent being called on to make what have been called the “regularly scheduled denunciations”.  I am going to assume that any human being who does not praise this person condemns him.  Even Sarah Palin who has been known to use metaphors like crosshairs, targets, etc. I’m sure did not intend for it to come to this.  Who among us has not spoken passionately, used metaphors we have no expectation of anyone taking literally, etc?  Have we never said in anger, “I’m going to kill_____!” or in exasperation, “The person who came up with this ought to be dragged out into the street and shot.”, with no intention of ever even thinking of acting upon it or expecting others to?  I guess Henry II learned this the hard way when he exclaimed, “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?”

    • But geez, doesn’t this at least deserve a mention?

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      p>It’s going to be hard to ensure that this doesn’t happen again if the right wing’s responses are going to be silence and “it wasn’t my fault!”   Boehner is a partial exception to this, McCain a proud exception.  I have said “I am going to kill ___ “.  Then again, I don’t have mobs of people hanging on my words with an overinflated sense of my value; I’d like to think I’d be judicious with my words if I did.

    • I’m a little reluctant to pile on the righties and insist they trip over each other to see who can condemn it the loudest.

      <

      p>They’re the ones who have been pushing the increasingly violent rhetoric of incitement over the past few years. They need to denounce that rhetoric just as they denounce the killings and assassination attempt.

      • There have been times in history where volatile rhetoric has emanated mainly from the left, but this is not one of them. You don’t hear Democrats advocating “second amendment remedies” or liberals interrupting the State of the Union address with shout-downs. The defensiveness we’ve seen on the right amidst the soul-searching over the violence in Arizona tells me that they know that it’s folks on their side who are doing the most line-crossing.  

    • Sharron Angle, GOP candidate for Senate in Nevada, said this (emphasis mine):

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      p>

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      p>

      If this congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second-Amendment remedies and saying “my goodness, what can we do to turn this country around?” and I’ll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out.

      <

      p>I think her supporters knew exactly what she was calling for, whatever mealy-mouthed whining anybody offers today.

      <

      p>Or consider Florida radio host Joyce Kaufman, speaking at a rally last year (emphasis mine):

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      p>

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      p>

      And I don’t care how this gets painted by the mainstream media, I don’t care if this shows up on youtube, because I am convinced that the most important thing the founding fathers did to ensure my First Amendment rights was they gave me a second amendment. And if ballots don’t work, bullets will. I never in my life thought that the day would come where I would tell individual citizens that you are responsible for being the militia that the founding fathers designed. They were very specific: you need to be prepared to fight tyranny.

      <

      p>How is this anything but inciting to violence against the elected government? “If ballots don’t work, bullets will.” That is what she said — publicly, on the record. I think she should be held accountable. How much more explicit does a public statement by a public figure have to be in order to qualify as inciting violence against elected government?

      <

      p>I went looking for the video I saw yesterday of Jesse Kelly, the right-wing opponent of Gabrielle Giffords, at his “Get on Target For Victory” event, where he and his supports gathered to “shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jessy Kelly”.

      <

      p>Not surprisingly, that video has apparently been scrubbed (another coward runs for cover). Here is how the Arizona Star reported the event:

      Jesse Kelly, meanwhile, doesn’t seem to be bothered in the least by the Sarah Palin controversy earlier this year, when she released a list of targeted races in crosshairs, urging followers to “reload” and “aim” for Democrats. Critics said she was inciting violence.

      He seems to be embracing his fellow tea partier’s idea. Kelly’s campaign event website has a stern-looking photo of the former Marine in military garb holding his weapon. It includes the headline: “Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly.”

      <

      p>I don’t care and I don’t want to hear self-serving cowardly after-the-fact “renunciations” from right wingers who have been whipping this nation into a violent frenzy for years. It’s too late for that, the damage is done.

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      p>I want to see advertisers avoid Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Joyce Kaufman, and the rest of their ilk like the plague. I want to see Americans renounce this violence. I want to see Sarah Palin return to well-deserved obscurity in Alaska (or wherever she lands), thankful to be spared prosecution for inciting terror.

      <

      p>I want to see this tragedy be a turning point in our political discourse, where Americans unite to repudiate this kind of hatred, anger, and violence.

      • I’ll gladly take denunciations from the people you mentioned above, but even they should not be assumed to speak for anyone but themselves.  Simply “targeting” someone isn’t enough for me to object.  After all, the DCCC, DSCC, NRCC, and NRSC refer to targeted races and politicians all the time.

        • OK, maybe Sharron Angle wasn’t specifically talking about Gabrielle Giffords, since they’re from different states.

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          p>And maybe Sarah Palin wasn’t specifically targeting Gabrielle Giffords, since there were 19 other members of Congress she had in her crosshairs surveyor marks.

          <

          p>But Jesse Kelly?  Giffords’ opponent last year?  The guy who had a campaign rally involving shooting guns to “help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office?”  Even if he was only speaking for himself, he was speaking about her.    

          <

          p>Here are some additional comments on Kelly by Arizona Republic columnist who interviewed him shortly after he won his primary in August.  

          I met Kelly in an Editorial Board meeting. Honorable fellow: war veteran, like all the district’s GOP candidates. Indeed, he was a Marine combat platoon leader, the most dangerous job on earth. He is an honest conservative. And a really, really angry guy.

          When asked about priorities, he gave an answer that, while perfectly suitable for a former Marine officer, it seemed a bit over the top for a prospective member of Congress: “We’ve got to kill all members of radical Islam.”

          And, when asked if he could work with Democrats in Congress: “I hope there’s no Democrats left in Congress when I get there”….”I think liberals are destroying the nation. We had better go fight them in Washington before they destroy our children’s future.”

          <

          p>And he even named his weapon.  

      • …from a Republican State Committeeman (and Bristol County Deputy Sheriff) to a another RMG poster?

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        p>After careful reading this poster is not directly threatening the other…just sending the message, “If I know you’re going to be somewhere I am, I’m gonna bring a gun–to “protect” myself, of course”

      • In spite of her protestations to the contrary (“And I don’t care how this gets painted by the mainstream media, I don’t care if this shows up on youtube”), I note that she’s now deleted the clip. It seems that she does care, after all.

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        p>Her obscene words stand. She calls for armed violence against elected officials. She should be held accountable for that call.

    • He cries at the drop of a hat, but commenting on this event, which is worth an ocean of tears, he manages to keep his composure.  Strange, strange man.  

    • He did start to choke up at his more recent press conference today, and he ordered the flags at half staff for the staffers that have been killed not to mention suspending House business for a week for caucus wide and hopefully House wide unity meetings and prayer vigils. So he seems to be doing the right thing for the most part, and delaying the contentious health care repeal as well.  

  4. Particularly since losing all the statewide and congressional elections in MA.  Rob even had to make a plea/threat for people to soften their rhetoric (actually it was more like a plea to stop making threats).  There are a couple of posters over there that could very well be considered unbalanced, but was I pointed out to Rob, You reap what you sow.

    • the attack.

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      p>

      There are a couple of posters over there that could very well be considered unbalanced,

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      p>Silence, in this case, is acceptance and approval.  I’m not talking about individual participants needing to comment, but the people who are in charge of the website should make it clear that this behavior is an outrage and is not promoted in any way, shape, or form.  Not saying anything seems like quiet acceptance.  Scary.

      • No, Rob is not unbalanced and “normal” people aren’t going to pick up a gun and start shooting people after reading him.  But his writings are filled with the vitriol that Sheriff Dunik spoke of yesterday.  Rob does not seek the truth, but rather uses half truths to stir up people to act.  His intent, I assume, is for people to act by working within the system to change things…but he’s blinded by the unintended consequences his attacks can have on impressionable and unstable people.  And Rob (I know your reading this) you know you have a couple of those types of readers.

        •    Yes, that guy is one of the most unstable ones. Did DMR “DUMP” him onto the streets to terrorize innocent citizens? You folks might want to worry about him. He’s crackers.

            •    You may want to read billxi’s post on Di Paola on RMG. It is the unedited version. I’m sure you know the link.
                Yes, I took a shot for billxi there. It’s worthwhile. I didn’t welsh on their wager. Simple/Pogo/Festus/Frank did.
                Re: Di Paola. So much for honor among thieves. Just FYI, billxi can’t stop laughing. A little crass, I admit. I did help to moderate his words.
                We are waiting for Sabutai’s comments on that.

              • You’ve said as much on RMG and your style of writing is a dead giveaway. You are the same person.

        • because the times I have been there it has appeared to be nothing more than a brick wall.  I’ve watched him a time or two on NECN and again – brick wall. Or as KBush likes to put it – a walking television set.  Only talks. Never listens.

          <

          p>So I don’t know first hand if the site inspires violent behavior, no matter how subliminally.  It is just truly bizarre for the owners of a political opinion blog to avoid making a statement about this tragedy.  It’s not something easily ignored.  You have to work to ignore it.

  5. I checked out the National Review’s group blog, The Corner, to see how the intellectual leaders of American conservatism are responding. What I found there this evening are eight (8!) consecutive posts, each by a different author, all offering impassioned condemnations of … anyone who has raised the “rhetoric” issue. It’s really quite stunning. They already believe they are the victims.

    • It’s difficult to believe that NRO represents the intellectual leaders of American conservatism. I hope there are actual conservative intellectuals hiding out somewhere else.

      • True, NRO is an op-ed enterprise and not an academic one, but it is where the big right-wing ideas get introduced to the rank-and-file. Note that one of today’s posters is Robert P. “Robby” George, Princeton legal scholar. His intellectual task today is to pronounce Sheriff Clarence Dupnik “dishonorable,” for daring to comment on the climate of anti-government hate in his own Pima County, Arizona.  

        • Seems like most of the Republican leadership have issued strong condemnations and Sarah Palin is doing the right thing for once by issuing a brief statement condemning the attacks and praying for its victims and shutting up. I think that is far more appropriate and maybe this tragedy has sobered her more militant rhetoric. Similarly it just seems that many on both sides are at a loss of words at comprehending this tragedy. And to me it makes me think of the Rally to Restore Sanity, and how peaceful, moderate in tone if not in politics, it was and how that was a great counter rally to all the noise and anger of the Tea Party. Perhaps after this tragedy we can stop speaking in terms of crosshairs, targeting seats, calling public servants ‘not worth a damn’ if they disagree with us (a liberal named Kos did that to Giffords), stop using polarizing language like sides and us and them, and referring to politics in battlefield and warfare terms. We can disagree without being disagreeable and lets hope this government, which the American people divided in the hope that the two sides can balance one another, can achieve great things and let us hope our politicians recognize we are all on the same side. Boehner, McCain, and the conservatives on Meet the Press this morning made great pleas to civility and restoring the dignity to public service. Let us not forget that many Congressmen and women are surprisingly open and available and let us hope their fears from this incident will not make them less so. Let us hope we respond to this tragedy by opening the government even more and allowing the people to truly access their house. That is the way to allow terrorists, foreign and domestic, to stop forcing us to live in fear of exercising our own freedoms and rights as citizens of this great country.  

          • I sincerely hope that this episode marks the end of Sarah Palin’s political career. She should rightly be made whatever the feminine form of “pariah” is (“mariah”?).

          • You’re conflating the proud tradition of factional political polemic with the rhetoric of elimination and violence. It’s possible to have a high tolerance for free speech, and at the same time draw clear lines around incitement. It just takes a bit of courage and clarity.

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            p>The pious plea for “civility” is the same platitude we hear every day, most of the time from people who simply have a vested interest in the status quo.

            <

            p>At a basic level there are fundamental disagreements, and irreconcilable interests, in our society as currently organized.

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            p>

  6. or Sharon Angle or any number of other Republicans or Tea Partiers for inciting people to violence with their calls for targeting Democrats in cross-hairs, their “don’t retreat, reload” rhetoric and the like.  These people don’t really mean for anyone to take them seriously.

    <

    p>Just because Palin, Angle, Jesse Kelly and others have the ability to reach and influence millions of people due to political celebrity or via radio talk shows, doesn’t mean they should be held responsible for what they say.  If someone yells “fire” in a crowded theater, they shouldn’t be held responsible either.  After all, they’re just speaking for themselves, and it’s up to everyone else to understand that, act calmly and leave the theater in an orderly manner.

    <

    p>When something tragic does happen, such as the Tuscon shootings, I’m sure Palin, Angle and the rest feel just as badly about it as everyone else.  And yes, they will probably tone down their rhetoric for quite a while, maybe even for a month or two.  After that, it will probably be back to business as usual.  But during the time in which they’re behaving themselves, let’s forgive them for any rhetorical excesses.  They’re only saying these things because they have the greater good of the country in mind. It’s not as if they’re saying this stuff just to get attention.

    • Sorry Dave, this is the weakest excuse I’ve heard.

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      p>

      Just because Palin, Angle, Jesse Kelly and others have the ability to reach and influence millions of people due to political celebrity or via radio talk shows, doesn’t mean they should be held responsible for what they say.  If someone yells “fire” in a crowded theater, they shouldn’t be held responsible either.  After all, they’re just speaking for themselves, and it’s up to everyone else to understand that, act calmly and leave the theater in an orderly manner.

      <

      p>Just speaking for themselves? What does that even mean? I’m gonna just sit there and hope the guy’s wrong, just kidding around? Wait for a firefighter to come in and confirm? A guy standing up in a theater and yelling is not a private conversation, it is a deliberate attempt to incite something.

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      p>Your logic is like excusing an arsonist for murder because he only meant to burn the house, not kill the people he knew were inside. Inciting a riot is a crime. Even if you walk away before the riot gets going, or the cops show up.

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      p>Sarah Palin putting a gun sight target over the Congresswoman’s district, is what? Just a joke? The spouting about “if the ballot doesn’t get ’em bullets will” is what, just a campaign slogan? Nothing worse than “Fifty Four Forty or Fight”, and amusing historical anecdote.

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      p>Sarah Palin doesn’t feel bad about this, no matter how much she may blather on TV. She has no more compassion for those people than she did for that caribou she shot on TV to make a few bucks.

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      p>

  7. … need to be a concern troll and harp on about what those on the right have not condemned, but at this point I think the really offending thing for me is Palin and Angle.  Sure, I’ll bet they condemn the shooting and all, but they still refuse to express any regret to their rhetoric that has been oft pointed out this weekend that may have contributed to an atmosphere of “2nd amendment remedies”.  

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    p>No acknowledgment or regret that their rhetoric may have contributed to the ‘permissibility’ (even if misconstrued) is what really offends me at this point.  They can’t ever admit error – which seems to be GOP cannon these days.

    <

    p>I don’t blame them for the shooting, but I do blame them for the atmosphere in AZ.

    • is driving at. There may be a cause and effect relationship between this shooting and right-wing rhetoric–I’m not yet convinced–but the shooting is a teachable moment on the GOP and its extremism.

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      p>As memes go, this one was popular for a while in the 90s, and the MSM didn’t have to think hard to bring it up again. They’ll forget soon enough and they won’t attack the VRWC because they don’t want to lose their “objectivity.” They’ll be scraping the bottom of the barrel for examples of liberal extremism to bring up.

      • that may have gotten missed. The right-wing rhetoric that we’re hearing does contain irresponsible incitements to violence, and the MSM is afraid to point that out for fear of being tagged with “liberal bias.”  Sarah Palin and her friends know this and have used the bias threat very effectively to play the media for some years now.  In the wake of the Tuscon tragedy, they’ll lie low for a bit.  But inciting the crowd is their bread and butter.  They’ll be back at it before too long, and who knows, but we may have an even worse tragedy as a result.  It’s time for all people with a sense of decency –including President Obama and the entire MSM and responsible members of the blogosphere — to call Palin, Angle, and the others out for the damage they’ve already done.

    • when they are caught. They say, Oh, we were just kidding around, Mr. Teacher.

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      p>Here’s something that Sarah Palin’s people did Sunday, after featuring what she called “bullseye icons” on her web page (and exhoriting her supporters to “reload”):

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      p>they pretended they were “surveyor’s symbols.”

      <

      p>We were just having fun, you all!

      • Got a new video game “Red Dead Redemption” which if I look at the stats page shows that I logged about 20 hours playing this weekend and finished a new 411 page book.  I often lately have been unplugging myself from the internets and news on the weekends to keep some modicum of sanity.  

  9. … selected quotes from Mike Stanfill’s site:

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    If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web with crosshairs on 20 pols, then 1 of them got shot, where would he be sitting right now? Just asking. – Michael Moore

    A physician cannot treat an illness s/he willfully refuses to diagnose. Violent political rhetoric is not fault of “both sides.” – Tom Tomorrow

    Inspiring that our media pundits are so quick to reach for “everyone’s to blame” when no conservative events have been terrorized by gunmen. – Jeffrey Feldman

    Weird: rightwingers say movies, video games affect behavior — but real world violent rhetoric from leaders & radio talkers have NO impact! – Tom Tomorrow

    Jared Lougnner: drug arrests, too crazy for Army or for college or anything else, but getting a legal gun? No problem. – Tom Tomorrow

    I find it abhorrent that Sarah Palin would stoke the coals of extremism with dangerous messaging, then delete it when something bad happens. – Jason Pollock

    Sure, Sarah Palin didn’t pull the trigger. But then, neither did Charles Manson. – auntbeast

    Christina Taylor Green was Born on September 11, 2001, and killed today by terrorist fuckheads in Arizona. Irony much? – geeksofdoom

    Sarah Palin rummages online frantically erasing her rabble-rousing Tweets like a Stalinist trimming non-persons out of photos. – Roger Ebert

    I’ll say this, if your first instinct after hearing about a tragedy is to scrub yr websites, you have a problem as a political movement. – digby56

    CNN’s Dana Bash says “this could be a wake-up call.” THIS … ? The whole Tea Party, carrying guns to rallies WASN’T?? – hololio2

    Teaparty asses have been asking for this to happen, and how they’re pissed off that we’re calling them out on it. – TLW3

    STOP SAYING”BOTH PARTIES”!! The Left has not been advocating Violence. @CNN assholes. – YatPundit

  11. Death threats against another Democratic Represantative from Tucson:

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    p>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…

    <

    p>Glock pistol sales are surging in Arizona after the shooting:

    <

    p>http://www.bloomberg.com/news/…

    <

    p>A Republican resigned as Precinct Chair due to death threats.

    <

    p>http://www.azcentral.com/commu…

    <

    p>Finally from a a CBS poll:

    The poll also shows that while three in four Americans say violence against the government is never justified, 16 percent say it can be justified — the same percentage that said as much in April. Twenty-eight percent of Republicans said such violence can be justified, compared with 11 percent of Democrats and independents.

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