I would have gone but I had to have a tooth rebuilt today. Ugh but I really hope we get a great turnout.
bcal92says
After 4-5 hours, it had 3 people accepting!
damnthetorpedossays
…well here’s the way to get one started. Tell the body proletariat who have committed themselves to lower-waged public service, to just shove off. Now as stated before, I’ve not been a big fan of unions, but this tactic by Governor Walker is absolutely wrong.
<
p>A couple of questions for legal-eagles: If this passes, worker’s will have paid ‘dues’ for a service that now cannot be provided to them – breach of contract? And, if there is a breach, can an individual employee represented by collective bargaining file suit against the State of Wisconsin? Or, class action? I’m curious to hear feedback – if this was mentioned in another thread, kindly direct me to it.
<
p>I could not attend, but also hope they see a good turnout!
johndsays
We don’t want the typical union “rough stuff”.
johndsays
“Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary,” Capuano had declared to cheers, whistles and applause from the union crowd.
joetssays
because it suits our interests to do so! WOOOO!
<
p>The week after can we have a rally to protest government obstructionism when it doesn’t suit our interests? WOOO!
<
p>If the government were one big game of Magic: The Gathering, the filibuster or other forms of obstructionism would have Phasing as an ability.
<
p>To anyone who understand the above reference without googling it: HAHA NERD!
And the final sentence was the only part of that post that I actually understood.
joetssays
is anti-democracy government obstructionism? That the people who voted republicans into power last year are being systematically disenfranchised by the democrats who are literally hiding in another state?
<
p>Because that’s pretty clear and easy to understand. Say what you will to support labor and collective bargaining and whatever, but what’s going on in Madison is a violation of the bedrock of democracy and is an affront to everything we supposedly stand for.
<
p>The democrats and the people hate this bill so much then should campaign against it and repeal it when/if they win next time around.
<
p>This is even worse than the increasingly pathetic filibuster.
doublemansays
That logic could get you to some very scary places.
<
p>So, I take it that you don’t support the lawsuits to find the health insurance reform law unconstitutional?
joetssays
If a law is unconstitutional, it should not have been enacted in the first place, regardless if the people will it or not. That’s the law we abide by when we choose to live here. Freedom, restricted by a set of constraints that allow us our rights to life, liberty, and property, without having to kill each other to keep it.
Frankly, I am discomfited by the strategy of boycotting the state Senate as well. At this time, I can’t call the governor’s assault on basic rights to be unprecedented, as it is the working platform of the Republican Party. I suppose one alternative is to flood with the state with lawsuits and go for an injunction. Another is to offer needless amendments. Or perhaps hold a long, pointless filibuster. There are lots of strategies Republicans have demonstrated.
joetssays
The collective bargaining of organized labor in the public sector is hardly a “basic right”.
<
p>Basic rights aren’t things that haven’t existed in the annals of humankind until the mid 1950’s.
christophersays
…from the right of the people to peaceably assemble, which has been construed as a right to form organizations to advocate for a collective position.
p>BMGers will pooh-pooh referendum petitions all day long and point to “electing the people we want to make our decisions for us… and if they don’t do what we want, replace them in 2,4 or 6 years… blah, blah, blah”.
<
p>But now we have a majority of Republicans duly elected as a majority in Wisconsin and suddenly the rules change. Now it’s “all” about the public sentiment, it’s all about the voice of the people. What happened to elected officials?
<
p>Well guess what, the majority of people in Wisconsin elected the Republicans to do things such as spend less money, reduce the costs of the state workers and bring sanity back to local contracts.
<
p>Protesters in Wisconsin and MA care about one thing, themselves… as this ultimately will effect them if it catches on. Unions care about themselves too. When faced with questions like “take some reductions or there will be layoffs, what do unions say… “Lay people off, just don’t touch my money!”
<
p>Wisconsin is listening to the people who elected them and they are telling them to not give up.
joetssays
Under capitalist economies, capital is organized in order to increase efficiency. Disorganized capital is antithetical to capitalism because it impedes the maximization of revenues. Therefore, labor capital being organized is not only appropriate, but should be encouraged.
<
p>The issue is that labor capital is organized in an inefficient manner contrary to capitalism. Kind of like controlling production and sales like a cartel. (yes, I equated cartels and unions)
<
p>The problem that we, as Americans have, is that we romanticize or demonize unions. Either they are institutions beyond reproach or sinful masses that must be wiped clean from our country. Soooo we don’t bother to address how to handle them in an efficient manner. We don’t let them do what in a capitalist utopia, they would do.
<
p>My whole problem is that I think there’s an inherent conflict of interest by having unions in the public sector. But that’s only from the standpoint that people are in the public sector for the ultimate benefit of the demos. For people who are in the public sector for the benefit of themselves, no such conflict is present.
<
p>Thus, you can see, it’s far too complicated to warrant you a “yes, I agree with you” or “no, you’re a fool!”
stomvsays
the Democratic legislators are duly elected by their constituents, and it seems that it is within the rules for them to skip town and prevent a quorum. So… what’s the problem exactly? Isn’t everybody involved doing what they are “supposed” to do?
christophersays
This is definitely a heart vs. head issue for me. My heart is cheering on the Democrats while my head can’t reconcile what their doing with my objections to GOP obstructionism in the US Senate, which is also technically within current rules.
johndsays
metoosays
Put the Governor of Wisconsin’s plan on the ballot and see if it flies. With such a dramatic change how the government does business, this is one voice lending support to letting the people decide. They voted for belt tightening but when explained it will be on the backs of working people, it may redirect the methods being used to balance the budget. I’m sure they were not anticipating that the Governor will give tax cuts to those who have contributed little and may have been among those investors who were bailed out by the rest of us.
<
p>Yes, let the people decide.
johndsays
according to BMGers, the Wisconsin Republicans were elected and now they decide on everything. Remember the whole, Obama and democratic House/Senate being a mandate on what Americans wanted…
<
p>We elect and then those elected officials do whatever they want and we’re suppose to nod and if we don’t like it it, vote them out in two years.
<
p>According to that mantra, Wisconsin’s should pass the bill and then if they disagree, vote out the Republicans and then have the Democrats write another bill to reverse this bill. BUT… we know that won’t happen since the Wisconsin public would love to have the shackles of collective blackmail bargaining removed.
<
p>Go Scott Walker, don’t give up. Where do we send donations?
I would have gone but I had to have a tooth rebuilt today. Ugh but I really hope we get a great turnout.
After 4-5 hours, it had 3 people accepting!
…well here’s the way to get one started. Tell the body proletariat who have committed themselves to lower-waged public service, to just shove off. Now as stated before, I’ve not been a big fan of unions, but this tactic by Governor Walker is absolutely wrong.
<
p>A couple of questions for legal-eagles: If this passes, worker’s will have paid ‘dues’ for a service that now cannot be provided to them – breach of contract? And, if there is a breach, can an individual employee represented by collective bargaining file suit against the State of Wisconsin? Or, class action? I’m curious to hear feedback – if this was mentioned in another thread, kindly direct me to it.
<
p>I could not attend, but also hope they see a good turnout!
We don’t want the typical union “rough stuff”.
because it suits our interests to do so! WOOOO!
<
p>The week after can we have a rally to protest government obstructionism when it doesn’t suit our interests? WOOO!
<
p>If the government were one big game of Magic: The Gathering, the filibuster or other forms of obstructionism would have Phasing as an ability.
<
p>To anyone who understand the above reference without googling it: HAHA NERD!
And the final sentence was the only part of that post that I actually understood.
is anti-democracy government obstructionism? That the people who voted republicans into power last year are being systematically disenfranchised by the democrats who are literally hiding in another state?
<
p>Because that’s pretty clear and easy to understand. Say what you will to support labor and collective bargaining and whatever, but what’s going on in Madison is a violation of the bedrock of democracy and is an affront to everything we supposedly stand for.
<
p>The democrats and the people hate this bill so much then should campaign against it and repeal it when/if they win next time around.
<
p>This is even worse than the increasingly pathetic filibuster.
That logic could get you to some very scary places.
<
p>So, I take it that you don’t support the lawsuits to find the health insurance reform law unconstitutional?
If a law is unconstitutional, it should not have been enacted in the first place, regardless if the people will it or not. That’s the law we abide by when we choose to live here. Freedom, restricted by a set of constraints that allow us our rights to life, liberty, and property, without having to kill each other to keep it.
Frankly, I am discomfited by the strategy of boycotting the state Senate as well. At this time, I can’t call the governor’s assault on basic rights to be unprecedented, as it is the working platform of the Republican Party. I suppose one alternative is to flood with the state with lawsuits and go for an injunction. Another is to offer needless amendments. Or perhaps hold a long, pointless filibuster. There are lots of strategies Republicans have demonstrated.
The collective bargaining of organized labor in the public sector is hardly a “basic right”.
<
p>Basic rights aren’t things that haven’t existed in the annals of humankind until the mid 1950’s.
…from the right of the people to peaceably assemble, which has been construed as a right to form organizations to advocate for a collective position.
In the Illinois legislature. So have many other folks.
I’d have to say “yes”
a sacrosanct subject for BMGers.
<
p>BMGers will pooh-pooh referendum petitions all day long and point to “electing the people we want to make our decisions for us… and if they don’t do what we want, replace them in 2,4 or 6 years… blah, blah, blah”.
<
p>But now we have a majority of Republicans duly elected as a majority in Wisconsin and suddenly the rules change. Now it’s “all” about the public sentiment, it’s all about the voice of the people. What happened to elected officials?
<
p>Well guess what, the majority of people in Wisconsin elected the Republicans to do things such as spend less money, reduce the costs of the state workers and bring sanity back to local contracts.
<
p>Protesters in Wisconsin and MA care about one thing, themselves… as this ultimately will effect them if it catches on. Unions care about themselves too. When faced with questions like “take some reductions or there will be layoffs, what do unions say… “Lay people off, just don’t touch my money!”
<
p>Wisconsin is listening to the people who elected them and they are telling them to not give up.
Under capitalist economies, capital is organized in order to increase efficiency. Disorganized capital is antithetical to capitalism because it impedes the maximization of revenues. Therefore, labor capital being organized is not only appropriate, but should be encouraged.
<
p>The issue is that labor capital is organized in an inefficient manner contrary to capitalism. Kind of like controlling production and sales like a cartel. (yes, I equated cartels and unions)
<
p>The problem that we, as Americans have, is that we romanticize or demonize unions. Either they are institutions beyond reproach or sinful masses that must be wiped clean from our country. Soooo we don’t bother to address how to handle them in an efficient manner. We don’t let them do what in a capitalist utopia, they would do.
<
p>My whole problem is that I think there’s an inherent conflict of interest by having unions in the public sector. But that’s only from the standpoint that people are in the public sector for the ultimate benefit of the demos. For people who are in the public sector for the benefit of themselves, no such conflict is present.
<
p>Thus, you can see, it’s far too complicated to warrant you a “yes, I agree with you” or “no, you’re a fool!”
the Democratic legislators are duly elected by their constituents, and it seems that it is within the rules for them to skip town and prevent a quorum. So… what’s the problem exactly? Isn’t everybody involved doing what they are “supposed” to do?
This is definitely a heart vs. head issue for me. My heart is cheering on the Democrats while my head can’t reconcile what their doing with my objections to GOP obstructionism in the US Senate, which is also technically within current rules.
Put the Governor of Wisconsin’s plan on the ballot and see if it flies. With such a dramatic change how the government does business, this is one voice lending support to letting the people decide. They voted for belt tightening but when explained it will be on the backs of working people, it may redirect the methods being used to balance the budget. I’m sure they were not anticipating that the Governor will give tax cuts to those who have contributed little and may have been among those investors who were bailed out by the rest of us.
<
p>Yes, let the people decide.
according to BMGers, the Wisconsin Republicans were elected and now they decide on everything. Remember the whole, Obama and democratic House/Senate being a mandate on what Americans wanted…
<
p>We elect and then those elected officials do whatever they want and we’re suppose to nod and if we don’t like it it, vote them out in two years.
<
p>According to that mantra, Wisconsin’s should pass the bill and then if they disagree, vote out the Republicans and then have the Democrats write another bill to reverse this bill. BUT… we know that won’t happen since the Wisconsin public would love to have the shackles of collective blackmail bargaining removed.
<
p>Go Scott Walker, don’t give up. Where do we send donations?