A few days ago a touched on a subject near and dear to my heart about the BS we hear from people about issues and then how they “do nothing” about it. Singers, actors, politicians get arrested for criminal/civil/moral or ethical violations but we either like them, like their music, like their politics and we are ready to forgive or simply ignore these violations. We’re no different that the coach who lets the high school quarterback start in the game, even though he got drunk and raped one of the cheerleaders the night before because “he’s a great quarterback and we need him for the big game!”.
So Apple Computer is doing some dancing with their tax avoidance…
Story in my favorite news source MSNBC now called NBC
Tax experts say the company could easily eliminate these phantom tax obligations. That would boost Apple’s profits for the past three years by as much $10.5 billion, according to calculations by The Associated Press.
When Steve Jobs died, much was made about their slave labor operations in China… and many Americans were disgusted by the working conditions of Apple employees.
No we have Apple who has been passing sales through countries with no or little tax liability. And now we find out that Apple has $74 Billion being held in offshore bank accounts, $74 Billion!!!! They are informing shareholders that they may repatriate some of that income into the US… in the future… and are therefore allocating up to $10.5 billion as a possible tax liability. Of course, nothing says they ever have to repatriate this money and could simply never pay their tax bill.
So now that we know they operate slave labor manufacturing plants, funnel sales through other no/low tax countries (“Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich,” which reduces taxes by routing profits through Irish subsidiaries and the Netherlands and then to the Caribbean.), avoid paying CA state taxes by using a Reno address…
So… how many people are ready to jettison their iPods, iPads, MACs, iTouch and all the other Apple products we all love? All of you? some of you? Any of you? I use all of these products from Apple and I love them all. I won’t be stopping my use of any of them and probably would continue using them no matter what Apple does, even if the company sent millions of dollars to the Obama Election fund. If some of you do stop then I bow down to you in reverence.
No wonder companies and people continue to behave badly, none of us really gives a shit…
This is exactly why many of us say that markets are not good at self-correction on the ethical front. It’s human nature to want to pay as little as possible even if it means looking the other way when it comes to the consequences. The government’s role is to step in and make us care by outright prohibiting these unsavory practices because we will not do it ourselves.
Who set up all these tax shelters for Apple. Watch the deniers spin this and say Apple is the victim in this tax avoidance scheme, so long as they continue to donate to Democrats.
I can only imagine what would be said if Mitt had his fingerprints on Apple. Since Steve Jobs was a Dem, all is forgiven. Heck, even John Tierney gets the BMG blessing.
I believe Romney has a plan to allow companies to repatriate monies sitting overseas at a reduced tax rate. This seems to make sense.
John, the collapse of civic culture is somewhat of an obsession of mine:
There are also issues of national security involved – and they are not limited to Apple. One of the conditions set by China for foreign high-tech manufacturing is access to the hard and software. Thus, not only is the Chinese government is spared the costs of reverse-engineering components and operating systems, the United States military is dependent upon the Chinese for its own high-tech components (in addition to much of the rare-earth elements necessary for their manufacture). I would presume that as a supporter of a strong defense, you might want to take that into consideration…
Christopher, democratic government is only as good as the culture from which it derives.
Not to put too fine a point on it, there is no statistically-tangible constituency at present that would push the federal government to ban such practices. Nor is there the equivalent of the 1980’s anti-apartheid movement to pressure State and municipal governments to divest from companies that sponsor such practices (or to promote investing in American jobs). To their credit, organized labor has attempted to create such a constituency, but with no success to date.
“Self-correction on the ethical front” is a cultural dynamic, applicable to government and consumer economics alike.
but please remember that being a Republican does not automatically mean
I want a good defense program for our country but I do not support huge boondoggle military programs like the F-35, $500 hammers or 52,440 US Soldiers in Germany, the 35,688 in Japan (USFJ), the 28,500 in Republic of Korea (USFK), the 9,660 in Italy, and the 9,015 in the United Kingdom.
“Strong defense” doesn’t equate to bloated military in my estimation; nor did I presume that it does in yours. I should have made that clear, and I apologize if you inferred otherwise.
I just wanted to clarify to you (and others) that I am not like many Washington Republicans who cringe at the thoughts of cuts in Defense. I want cuts in Defense spending, either directly to the standing military OR/AND the military/Defense complex. I’m sure MA employment would suffer from such cuts but we need to spend that money on infrastructure and other needed worthwhile projects.
Nobody from Apple is running for President.
The fact that Apple (together with all too many other US companies) exploits offshore havens is irrelevant. Apple’s infamous tolerance or encouragement of overseas sweatshops and worse is awful and similarly irrelevant — Apple is not running for President.
Being an old wise sage Tom, how do you feel about Apple or for that matter, how do you feel about supporting people or companies who “do wrong”. Do you remember in the past when a Hollywood type was caught in a scandal and their careers were toast as they became radioactive? But in today’s world your cocaine addiction will propel you into stardom, your sex tape will make you famous, you may like little boys but people can’t stop singing “Billie Jean”, Senator “X” guilty of adultery… just say your sorry since you supported my issues.
My point was nobody cares about the people anymore, they just care about their movies, their songs, their electronics, their ideological issues… and this is what drives us a little crazy since these violators of cultural norms will be condemned by people who don’t like this music/acting/looks/ideals and once again we’re all fighting.
I think we all need to come together and call people when they violate our rules and make them pay by loss of their stardom, not increase it.
Do you feel guilty supporting people or companies like Apple?
I don’t like it, and I support government regulation to minimize or eliminate it.
I don’t think “guilty” is the word I’d use — I don’t like Apple, I avoid their products when I can, and I do what I can to stop their abuses.
As I wrote somewhere yesterday, I think our society has reversed “means” and “ends” with respect to the economy — I think that the economy is rightly viewed as a means to sustain a civilized society. I think that since the Reagan era we have reversed that, so that the GOP and its supporters now view the economy as an end itself. This reversal reflects a value system that I fundamentally reject — a value system that elevates money and wealth above human suffering.
In my view, we need a strong economy, because a strong economy is needed to sustain the kind of just society that I want to live in.
More specifically to your question, I do think that the abuses of Apple exemplify the need for a society that formally defines corporations as people to then find ways to hold those corporations responsible for their abuses. In my view, the “free market” dogma will not solve these problems, just as the free market does not eliminate the need to prosecute and punish criminals.
But then I never claimed to be a true geek – I have the most economical equipment to meet my communication needs – like my acer and run in a pc environment, using droids for wireless.
As a Christian I was deeply concerned by the automatic deification given to Jobs at the end of his life especially considering how the $200 I gave to charity this year is two hundred times what he ever gave. Learning that Apple could charge $58 dollars more to make the iPad here in America instead of in slave factories overseas really depressed me since most consumers, especially the upper middle class blue staters that are Apples base, would totally fork that over for a more conscientious product. Like any publicly traded company the concern is for profits to be maximized at all costs, in that way they aren’t thinking any differently at all.
a reprehensible company to work WITH and I would never, ever in a million years buy any of their products. The fact they are reprehensible on their ethics and tax evasion is just a further reason to have nothing to do with the development nazis IMHO.
tax loophole, every labor market in every country for gain at the expense of the USA and has found willing enablers in DC to do it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I give a shit.
Corporations are only going to be as good as they have to be. I don’t tend to think small personal boycotts are that successful. Moreover I doubt that other electronics manufacturers are much better than Apple.
There’s also the moral argument that sweatshops, for example, often improve the lives of those in very poor countries. Krugman has a piece from the nineties I’ve quoted before.
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In the current context, Romney’s claims about knowing how to “create” jobs really are open to question. Obama’s current job is to create jobs — and alas that requires Congress’ cooperation. While at Bain, Romney was never measured or evaluated for how many jobs he created. It was how much money he could make for Bain. On purely moral grounds, one might even argue that it is better to create jobs in Calcutta than in Cleveland, but that’s not what we hire Presidents to do.