Huffington Post is reporting that Marriage Equality came to France today after Violent Protests.
Image is of Wilfred de Bruijn, a Dutch man living in France for 10 years after a brutal homophobic attack in Paris.
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Marriage Equality in France!
I have no desire to join any crackpot religion. When this is done allegedly in the name of Christianity, all I can say is No Thanks. Actually, there is more I can say, but not without violating the rules of civil discourse.
There is nothing Christian about homophobia and nothing homophobic about Christianity. As far as I’m concerned they are mutually exclusive. Religion is a poor excuse for homophobia and homophobia is a poor excuse for what far too many people consider to be their religion (looking at you Westboro Baptist!)
I’m happy to say that I too would not join any “crackpot” religion as long as we understand there are religions that are not “crackpot”.
I have frequently identified myself as both openly gay and an atheist, and I suspect that in whatever way you first read the comment, that is what I meant.
The bottom line for me is that as bizarre as this week has been for everyone, that is what it feels like all the time, when simply a mannerism or a stray comment in public can become for “some people” justification for getting the crap beat out of you.
Last Saturday, on the radio, someone from a mosque was talking about how it is now expected that if you are a Muslim, you immediately have to publicly come out and denounce the violence, and yet, when “so called” Christians put people in the hospital, nothing is said and nothing is expected to be said by anyone.
Perhaps there is still some leftover PTSD from my having been assaulted to not simply let the connection go. For what it is worth, perhaps I expected too much.
The Bold was my addition to point out that the primary source of the violence are the “Hard Line Catholics” and Royalists.
Traditionalist Catholics tend to be monarchists to, might as well embrace all the backward ideologies of the past eh?
in the post Oliver Cromwell England, and you can definitely say he was a Monarchist, so I agree, the two probably go hand in hand.
conservative traditionalists and converts. T.S. Eliot, Cardinal Newman, G.K. Chesterton, and though he was Anglican, C.S. Lewis was pretty darn Catholic. This is 250-300 years after the Restoration, but there is a funky thing about the English and Catholicism.
…to adhere to tradition and be socially progressive. I count myself in that category.
on an exchange program. The hosts were into some group like this. They also were involved with Jean-Marie LePen’s odious Front national, the nativist xenophobic party in France. They were nice enough to me but I didn’t like their politics at all.
Soon before I left I learned that they were royalists as well and marked the 200th anniversary of the French Revolution by draping their home’s front door in black crepe. All that democracy was just a big mistake, they told me. Not an aristocratic family so God only knows why they thought monarchy would be better for them.
When you get the institutional Roman Catholic church in agreement, I’ll be eager to revisit the question.
At the moment, homophobia is the canonical position of the largest Christian organization in America (the Roman Catholic church). Large segments of virtually every Protestant denomination are the same — hence the popular Protestant support for the various efforts to discriminate against the LGBT community.
While I agree with you, I hope you’ll admit that a significant number of Americans who call themselves Christians fervently reject this belief and cite “Christianity” as their reason.
…but violence most certainly isn’t! Actually, I’m reluctant to even call it homophobia in this context since I see it as ignorance and unwillingness to evolve rather than fear or hate. Protestant Fundamentalism on the other hand strikes me as more phobic. A distinction without a difference in terms of result maybe, but I really do get different vibes from Roman Catholicism and Protestant Fundamentalism – ditto for how their respective anti-abortion positions manifest themselves.
The Catechism calls homosexuality an orientation and asserts it’s not a choice, which makes it far more ‘progressive’ on the issue than most Protestant denominations, including several mainline ones. But,regrettably, it still holds gays to a double standard of a celibate life and the double standard of opposing their human right to civil marriage outside of the church. I have always opposed that double standard, most American and European Catholics oppose that, and it’s one of the reasons I have attended Episcopal masses this year.
But the majority of most Christians, even evangelicals, under 30 support gay marriage. The days of the Bakkers and Robertsons and Falwells on the Christian right, even amongst their own denominations, will soon be numbered. That said, I would not trade places with Mike and could not argue my faith would not have been tested or destroyed if I was in his shoes. It sounds like he has been burned quite badly by Christianity and that is on us Christians collectively. It sounds like you have been burned as well Tom for other reasons, and I will be the first to apologize to you both on behalf of any Christians that have hurt you. They were not following my faith as I understand it.
My faith has sustained my passion and hope for human rights, and it has truly guided me to an opening and loving acceptance of gays and full support for their equality everywhere.We may disagree on salvation by faith, but we can agree that France through its good works saved a lot of people today from bigotry and hatred, and hopefully in time America will follow suit and truly have equality for all under our nations law. It is something I certainly pray for.
The Catholic Church says there is no double standard on celibacy because, in theory, it holds all people outside a marriage of one man-one woman to celibacy. The problem with this argument is that the celibacy would be permanent. Precisely because of the double standard on even civil marriage. “You can only have sex if you’re married. Oh, um, and you can’t get married.”
Personally, I don’t know any Catholics who actually abide by this celibacy outside marriage thing (other than priests and nuns, and not all of them by a long shot). I don’t know anyone who thinks sex outside of marriage actually is sinful. And the majority, a large majority, of people I know raised in the Catholic Church think the Church’s position on marriage is wrong. It’s nearly unanimous that the Church has no business imposing its views on civil marriage as opposed to its own sacrament of marriage.
chock full of gay men. One of the less well-known phenomenas is the number of priests that have died of AIDS. Some seminaries are known for their gay subculture. Doctrinally, the Roman Catholic church may be against homosexuality, but in practice, it has often cast a blind eye to it among its clergy.
if you’re gay but from a staunchly traditional Catholic background.
If you’re supposed to be celibate anyway who cares what your sexual orientation is, especially since those who object tend to see homosexuality only as a behavoir rather than as a trait?
if a priest were a celibate gay man. The hierarchy has become more fundamentalist, due, in part, to their fundamentalist Protestant brethren and the pedophile scandals ( we all know has nothing to do with being gay, but the less sophisticated do not).
…in not being influenced by those “heretical” Protestants. I don’t even know what to say about linking the pedophilia scandals to this.
become progressively or regressively more stupid. John Paul II made sure of hiring doctrinally conservative, but too often stupid bishops. That’s why you have all these clowns out there who refuse to serve communion who don’t subscribe to teachings on abortion.
The abortion controversy is what brought the fundies and Catholics together.
when they started this denying communion business, but declined to apply it to people who support capital punishment or unnecessary wars or depriving children of food and healthcare.
Many years ago, when I was a singing member of the Boston Gay Men’s Chorus, the number of men who either went to a seminary or interviewed with a seminary or considered going to a seminary or were ex-seminarians was shockingly high. It was practically a stereotype.
…there seem to be a disproportionate number who are UCC clergy, but that’s because they know they will be welcome in that calling.
My grandfather was at St. Johns for two weeks when he get hit on by several professors, that, and the fact that my grandmother was pregnant convinced him he wasn’t cut out to be a priest 😉