As usual, our resident troll has a post on the recent list where he distorts the source material by omitting key portions of the article from his review. If you read that post, you would think that the evil geniuses behind Cape Wind decided all on their own to screw over American workers and award all the jobs to “a German company called EEW”. However, a few minutes spent reading the link tells a very different tale. To wit:
In the United States, which has yet to put a wind farm in the water, the Interior Department is leasing sections of the ocean and the Energy Department has handed out grants and considered loan guarantees, like one that is pending for Cape Wind.
The potential economic impact of a new offshore wind industry is enormous, supporters say. The Energy Department estimates that the Atlantic coast could support as many as 70,000 jobs by 2030.
Cape Wind was to be the catalyst, leading to the first 1,000 jobs, with equipment from General Electric and other domestic suppliers. But a major setback came around 2009, when G.E. decided to back away from the offshore wind business, saying it was still too expensive to compete with land-based wind power. In response, Cape Wind turned to Vestas and Siemens, dominant players based in Northern Europe with factories in the United States that make onshore wind machines. In December, Siemens and Cape Wind completed the contract, in time, executives said, for the project to qualify for a federal tax credit valued at 30 percent of its cost.
So there was a time commitment that had to be met to ensure that Cape Wind would get the tax credit that helps make the project feasible – the contract had to be completed by year end, and Mass Tank didn’t have a factory. The article goes on to explain that building a factory here is hard to justify on the strength of one large contract, and Mass Tank never came through with a financing plan to actually make it happen. Further, while there won’t be as many manufacturing jobs here in the states, there will still be plenty of jobs – these things need to be assembled, plugged into the grid and serviced, all of which will be done by locally sourced, well paid middle class Americans. A little more from the link:
Accounts differ over how the deal fell apart. Cape Wind expected Mass Tank to contribute or find financing before awarding the contract, while Mass Tank needed the contract to raise the roughly $35 million or $40 million that its plant would cost. Under those circumstances, Mr. Mack of EEW said, there was not a profitable way to go forward.
Despite the disappointment, Mr. Horstmann and his team are pursuing other possibilities. There is interest in New Jersey, they say, in their participation in a factory planned for the Fishermen’s project. But their chance to put Mass Tank at the forefront of serving the Atlantic coast offshore industry may have slipped through their fingers.
“We tried to hit a home run with this,” Mr. Horstmann said. “And we didn’t.”
In his post, DFW admits to having “cheated” on us here at BMG by reding RMG, which is where he found his source material – naturally, the good folks at RMG omitted the same things Dan omitted. Christopher left a comment in there asking if people think Dan should continue to cheat on us by hanging out at RMG instead of BMG. Go rec that comment if you agree – and DFTT!
Where was Deval to help this American Company with loan guarantees and subsidies, like he did with Evergreen Solar with $58 million given to them?
There is no justification for outsourcing the mfg of Cape Wind. I dont want it built, but the only consolation prize was that it would create mfg jobs locally. It is an utter disgrace that we won’t be mfg these turbines. I feel bad for those who posted comments here on BMG, yelling at me, that wind farms are as American as coal. Utter rubbish, and later, I will post those who made these comments and ask for an apology.
…It would be helpful to provide a link to the original post, presumably from DFW. Also, labeling him a troll does not advance the conversation. What’s wrong with a healthy disagreement on bluemassgroup? Can’t the blue sea of liberalism accept a red fish?
There’s not enough info in the post, unfortunately, to pull a thread back to the report which originated the discussion. The question seems to be – why did some installation contract go to Vestas and Siemens instead of GE.
It could simply be that those two foreign companies have more experience with offshore wind farms, and can do the work cheaper. I don’t know, but that possibility ought to be at least considered.
Installing offshore wind posts is not exactly technologically trivial.
Whether American companies or workers end up getting some benefit – I think it is more important to get the Cape Wind working, and do it at not too steep a cost. If it comes to choose between cheaper energy and a pet benefit to this local industry or other, the choice for me is clear.
http://vps28478.inmotionhosting.com/~bluema24/2014/01/build-cape-wind-help-put-europeans-to-work/
Labeling Dan a troll is a simple matter of truth, Andre – there is absolutely no use in trying to advance any discussion with him, sorry.
You’re right about the firm that won the contract – they’ve been doing offshore wind farms successfully for years, and with GE dropping out of that market in 2009, it only makes sense to use a firm with experience. Dan used the same selective quoting employed by the folks at Red Mass Group in order to slant his post, all I’m doing is reporting all of the facts.
And here is the link to the original NY Times report:
U.S. Offshore Wind Farm, Made in Europe
I fail to understand where is the outrage. If Siemens and Vestas have the capacity to do this, and GE and MassTank do not, then it’s only normal for the contract to go to the two companies in Germany and Denmark.
You’ll have to ask Dan and the denizens of Red Mass Group where the outrage is coming from, I’m certainly not outraged and I wrote this post to counter the nonsense in Dan’s original post.
Let’s say that the state went ahead and backed Mass Tank with loans and tax credits so that they could gain this contract. And then let’s say that Mass Tank went belly-up anyhow, and Cape Wind ended up costing more while the state lost money – Dan and the RMG folks would be outraged by that as well. You can’t win when arguing with these fools – you can just point out the real truth and trust that most folks have the smarts to see it for what it is.
He lives to waste our time. He has proven time and time again that he is too lazy to engage in actual critical thought. He has fully earned the label through his prolonged efforts on this site. So even if he happens to make a legitimate point (or more likely cut and pastes someone else’s legitimate point from somewhere) it is not worth our time to dig through the crap to find it.
DFW is a structural problem. BMG would benefit from healthy debates with well-informed conservatives. Problem is, political debates are moral debates, and moral debates get heated quickly. So heated that BMG gets unbearable fast for any intelligent conservative by the third discussion.
Conservatives, on the other hand, who are immune to social disapproval quickly get attached to BMG and stay for a long time. DFW’s predecessor, JohnD, was here for like forever.
What DFW does is increase the heat. That makes it even less likely that intelligent conservatives will join in the discussion. It’s as here were a mole trying hoodwink us liberals into thinking conservative=stupid.
As you can see from the transcript below, there was a discussion in my diary titled “I use anthracite coal to support these people” regarding whether wind power is as American as coal energy. This new revelation proves the point that I, me, DFW made almost a year ago, that my anthracite coal is 100% Certified Grade A American energy, from A-Z, from the second it is harvested from PA, trucked into MA, and burned in my fireplace insert. The same CANNOT and will NEVER be said of green energies like solar and wind. This is not a victory lap by me, just me doing my part keeping BMG “reality-based”. I rest my case.
Or you can support…(1+ / 0-) View voters
Recommended by: thegreenmiles.
…investment in clean energy that would ultimately be a net job gain, as well as job retraining programs so these folks can find other work.
christopher @ Tue 19 Feb 4:45 PM
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That’s the problem Christopher(0+ / 4-) View voters
Disapproved by: Kevin L, mike_cote, thegreenmiles and doubleman.
Coal is U.S.A., cant be outsourced like solar panels to China or wind turbines to Europe. These folks have a job for life, unless we ban the product the harvest. No easy answer, just saying.
danfromwaltham @ Tue 19 Feb 5:11 PM
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This isn’t much different…(1+ / 0-) View voters
Recommended by: petr.
…than whining about the jobs of tobacco farmers when we were cracking down on the tobacco industry. At least the tobacco farmers were not inhaling the junk they produced as they were harvesting it. Wind turbines have to be built where the wind is, so those jobs can’t be outsourced. We can easily gain the competitive advantage in clean energy and not let China surpass us if we played our cards right. Yes, some industries do become obsolete.
christopher @ Tue 19 Feb 5:52 PM
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Christopher- wind turbines are not made in the U.S.A.(0+ / 4-) View voters
Disapproved by: Ryan, thegreenmiles, kirth and Kevin L.
Not sure that matters to many of you Markey voters but that is besides the point.
Christopher- the bird killing guillotines in Kingston Ma have a Hyundai logo at the top, is this an American Company? Also, the turbines in Newhaven CT were mostly made in…..China. I feel better and better with burning my coal knowing where my money goes.
http://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/wind_turbine_erected
danfromwaltham @ Wed 20 Feb
Company logos don’t tell you much.(1+ / 0-) View voters
Recommended by: thegreenmiles.
There are Toyota plants in the US after all. They still have to be installed and operated on site and I have a hard time imaging them being shipped fully assembled from overseas. You feel better knowing your money contributes to the pollution of the air and destruction of the earth? Interesting.
christopher @ Wed 20 Feb 1:34 PM
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Outright lie(0+ / 0-) View voters
There are several US manufacturers of wind turbines; General Electric is one. Do some homework.
kirth @ Wed 20 Feb 3:18 PM
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Outright delusion(0+ / 3-) View voters
Disapproved by: kirth, SomervilleTom and Kevin L.
After the crack was analyzed, replacing the blade was considered, but last Wednesday Hyundai engineers decided to remove a section of the blade and replace it with new material, Ruiz said.
Read more: http://www.patriotledger.com/topstories/x777658357/Crack-in-wind-turbine-blade-under-repair-in-Kingston#ixzz2LTaxmD00
The turbines in Kingston, just north where the pilgrims landed, are mfg by Hyundai, a Korean Company. China built the ones in CT. In my eyes, a Stephen Lynch supporters eyes, these are all crap. So don’t get on this board saying green energies produce U.S. jobs, they actually destroy jobs. Just be truthful about it, otherwise you sound like Ed Markey when he promised more jobs with his support of NAFTA and GATT, all horse-bleep.
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2009/08/hyundai-expands-wind-business
Now looking at my 40 pound bag of coal, has Santa on it. So cute and 1000% American. Sorry you can’t say that about wind…….sorry
danfromwaltham @ Wed 20 Feb 4:28 PM
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…that coal wasn’t American or wasn’t mined by American workers. We prefer to use cleaner renewable energy and place a higher value on that aspect. No apologies from me.
In fact, Kirth told me to do some homework. And the others I mentioned either supported your comments or disagreed with my assertion that those turbines are made overseas.
Now the truth is out on Cape Wind, I was right all along (oh that feels so good to say, I should have to pay for it) and you and the others are proven wrong. Like Obamacare, it was sold on false pretenses which benefited a candidate running for re-election.
Even if manufactured overseas then shipped here they can only be installed and operated on location. Besides more jobs is a plus regardless of geography.
… that you’re going to get an apology from me than you are… ahem…. pissing into the wind.
And your bag o’ coal might be from the USA, but is your furnace? Are you sure? You got any Cedar and/or Pine in your home? There’s a good chance it’s from Canada. Any American appliances? There’s a good chance they were assembled in Mexico. There’s a very good chance that the shirt on your back was not sewn together in the US (unless you sewed it yourself…)
I drive a Hyundai. It’s over ten years old and still pretty zippy. I don’t drive it in Korea. I drive it in Massachusetts and Connecticut. What do you drive? Without waiting for an answer, I’m certain it’s not American. I looked into buying an American car but either they are wholesale made in Canada or Mexico or their parts are and they are assembled in the US. So why bother trying to source the finished car from the US when the parts are from everywhere else? I even thought, once, that if I wanted to go All-American I’d have to shell out for an American icon like a Cadillac. Gee, the XTS is a sleek looking car, no? Made in Canada. Cadilac has a plant in Mexico also. You drive a manual transmission? They aren’t made in the US. They are made in either Brazil, Germany or Japan. That’s it. You think that Ford you’re driving is All-American? Not likely. A good deal of their engines are made either in Mexico or Germany. You want an entirely, 100%, American car? Toyota Tundra. Derp.
As far as Cape Wind goes… German companies were ready and willing to fill a gap that American companies simply could not fill. It’s as simple as that. The American company sat around with their thumb up their ass waiting for Uncle Sam to give them permission to collect a whopping big check and couldn’t turnaround in time to deliver. Unless you’re willing to say definitively that, when American coal is late on a delivery you’d rather go cold, eschewing your 78 degree t-shirt in the winter fantasia, before buying coal from some other country, I don’t see where you got any complaint. In fact, if the temperature in your house were to drop below 70 degrees, I’d bet you’d be willing to french-kiss a snapping turtle for a handful of Chilean mouse turds just to get the heat back on…
Far cry from the “broken clock” others like to call me.
Just look at the transcript. Look how right I was, and how god-awful wrong everyone was, including you petr, by supporting(recommending) a Christopher’s comment that wind “turbines are built where the wind is, and can’t be outsourced”. Almost as bad as Obama saying we can keep our doctors.
I get the car analogy, I use to lease cars, now like you, I drive an older car (with low miles), but its a Lincoln, I want some steel around me in-case a deer jumps out in front of me or an idiot is texting and swerves into me and the ride and room is nice. But I try to buy American, my Hitzer 983 coal insert is American made. My boots are American made, brand is Danner.
Can we put a fork in Cape Wind, and build Pilgrim 2?
…from a stopped clock is that a stopped clock is right twice a day – you, om the other hand, are barely right once a year. You’re closer to a stopped calendar than a stopped clock.
.
If you read up on the history of the internal combustion engine you come across names like Karl BENZ, Gottlieb DAIMLER and Rudolf DIESEL. And you know, there were probably a few Americans that bought stuff from these guys, and that didn’t stop us from making our own cars. Lots of them.
My man Dan, this is your boy Stan, I can’t believe you are letting some British guy’s coal company be held up as a model, and the Chinese even owned part of it.
Nah-stick with American made 100% like me. I fuel my house with an even older and more American fuel-wood and witches. The wood came straight from Maine and the witches from Salem-all locally owned and produced man. Best fuel for the fire!
-Guest post from StanfromStoneham