There has been a fair share of Op eds written on the South Boston St. Patrick’s Day parade, unfortunately bigotry and exclusion have now defined the parade. One of the persons responsible, John “Wacko” Hurley decided it was a good idea to have an interview recorded by Jessica Heslam at the Herald.
Let me just say, bad idea. Even with the soft questions, he doesn’t seem to know how to answer any questions without sounding like a bigot.
Please share widely!
I don’t even know the guy by reputation, but the only reason to prohibit gay people from marching in the parade is bigotry. Hard or soft. Some of my best people are gay. Whatever. It’s bigotry.
Not a good day for the Irish.
Basically told the reporter to stifle herself.
But here’s the rub
I doubt his kids, grandkids or great grand kids will share his views, and it sounds like he won’t be around to dictate terms for that much longer. His way of life and the neighborhood he grew up in, for better or for worse, and I would argue for the better in a lot of cases (racial and religious diversity, Whitey free), is over.
Sad, strange little man.
It’s more peculiar that so many in South Boston and a little beyond identify with and make excuses for him. The rules-are-rules and we-won-with-the-Supremes totally bypass reason and morality. Big sigh.
as concerns the Supremes and the parade. Having the legal right to be a jerk doesn’t mean you have to be one.
But I think that in South Boston these issues get tied up with other changes that have people worried. The breakdown of tight-knit community not just there but everywhere. The disappearance of an economy with relatively evenly shared prosperity in favor of the stratified neoliberal disaster we now have.
Jconway said just above:
While celebrating the ways in which it’s gotten better, we should not be dismissive of the ways in which it’s gotten worse. They reflect problems that plague our entire society.
Michael Patrick MacDonald, no defender of bigotry, has pointed out that some of the yuppie newcomers in Southie and neighborhoods like it have been crystal clear in their contempt for those there before. These things feed into an overall “circle the wagons” ethos.
I’ve seen my own neighborhood in Cambridge, North Cambridge, Tip O’Neil’s good, finally start to get gentrified. My parents cashed out and it’s doubtful I’ll ever be able to go back. Sandwiched between yuppie playgrounds like Davis and Harvard it won’t keep it’s character for long. I get that. This displacement happens and it’s messy and a lot of people hold outright contempt for the long time residents who’ve been there forever. To me, the best way to say ‘up yours’ to the yuppies is to let the gays march and leave them little moral high ground to stand on.
But legendary Speaker McCormack, a lifelong Southie native, had a ‘No Irish Need Apply’ sign in his office he’d point to whenever his constituents griped about his support for civil rights bills. He’d just point and say ‘never forget we were once those people too’. It’s a shame that some there still look to this guy as a hero, particularly when guys like Moakley and McCormack did so much to advance equality in this country.
At 84 he’s as two years younger than my own Irish grandfather who was always pro-choice and whose opinion on gay marriage was ‘let them be as miserable as the rest of us’. So age and Irish Catholic heritage aren’t great excuses either.
…when interviewing a person whose nickname is “Wacko”.
I remember the quote from the Simpsons, when Abe said something along the lines of “I used to be with it. Then ‘it’ changed and I was no longer with it. No ‘it’ is different and scares me.”
This guy reminds me of that. The world has changed, and this man has no idea how to deal with it. Wacko has some idea of what to say, or at least what not to say. But can’t fake sincerity, or speak the language with ease. Not to say that he isn’t bigoted. He’s bigoted in that sense of “the guy grew up decades ago” that doesn’t excuse it but explains it.
There are millions like him in the country — but almost none in charge of such a high-profile community event. Time for new blood.
I moved here in May of 1974. In the nearly forty years I’ve lived here, I’ve never once even wanted to attend, never mind march in, this parade. My family and I, on the other hand, have been enjoying the Gay Pride parade for years.
I *never* go to Southie. I don’t want to go to Southie. That neighborhood is for people like Whitey Bulger (and perhaps EB3). As far as I can tell, this maroon pretty much exemplifies why I don’t like Southie, don’t like this parade, don’t like ANYTHING this parade symbolizes, and think all this drama is just plain stupid.
This whole St. Patrick’s Day hoopla is an American (and Boston) thing anyway. I just roll my eyes and get on with my day. I must say that calling it “Evacuation Day” so that Suffolk County government employees get a day off is just more, well, horse manure.
As far as I’m concerned, I think that Mayor Walsh and every other government official should find something else to do on “Evacuation Day”. Give a rousing barn-burner of a speech someplace like Faneuil Hall.
Let this stupid parade and all the bigotry, hatred, and ill-will it symbolizes die the death it deserves.
The Irish are a key element of Boston’s cultural heritage. They certainly aren’t all Whitey Bulger. I also think it’s just fine for Boston to commemorate the day the British made themselves scarce, which actually predates the influx of Irish. Neither side can help the coincidence that it’s the same as St. Patrick’s Day. While catching up with the times would be nice, somehow I’ve never been able to get myself as worked up as some do about their policy of exclusion, though my preference would be that only official city events be allowed to block streets and public events I’d imagine would have to be inclusive.
cultural heritage part, not the exclusion part or the anti-First Amendment part. (Parades are protected speech.
I sometimes watch what the remains of the St. Patrick Day Breakfast with my parents. It’s truly awful 99% of the time. But it was a political mainstay and my mother is big on our Irish heritage. Luckily, we have the Holyoke St. Patrick’s Day Parade.
http://www.wggb.com/2014/03/07/gay-rights-group-to-march-in-holyoke-st-patricks-parade/
Why is this concept so difficult?
“A/an” is not the same as “all”.
– All priests are not sex abusers. Some priests were sex abusers.
– All southerners are not racist. Some southerners were racist.
– All men are not sexist. Some men are sexist.
– All Irish are not criminals. Whitey Bulger was Irish.
An observation like “Southie is the neighborhood of Whitey Bulger” is NOT the same as saying “All residents of Southie are Whitey Bulger”.
For crying out loud, guys, how hard is this?
If we are to make progress against clergy sex abuse, racism, and sexism, then we MUST be able to acknowledge that the problems exist and that the perpetrators of those problems can often be grouped into demographic categories.
Regarding a different aspect of your comment, this has little to do with “Irish”. There has never been, to my knowledge, an analogous parade in Charlestown. Charlestown was just as Irish as Southie ever was. These Saint Patrick’s Day festivities have more to do with Hallmark (and various alcoholic beverage campaigns) then with ethnicity. The Irish (as in people who actually LIVE in Ireland) I’ve known have little patience with or affection for the entire “Saint Patrick’s Day” hoopla. They are far more offended by the appropriation of Irish culture and symbols as an excuse for binge drinking as anything else.
The Italian communities of Boston have managed to fill the streets with people every summer for as long as I’ve been here. They have parades, too, as well as just plain old street parties (“Festival” is the accurate term). None of those have the thinly-veiled undercurrent of hostility that the Southie Parade has had EVERY YEAR since I’ve been here.
This dispute is only coincidentally about being “Irish”. It is, instead, about scapegoating and bigotry.
When you say that it is the neighborhood of Whitey Bulger you very strongly came across as implying that that is all you need to know about Southie. I’m sure if you were interested in making a positive point you could have found some good guys to complete the sentence, “Southie is the neighborhood of…” You try to wiggle your way out of this all the time, but I am standing by my characterization of your comments.
It sounds like you now suggesting that it is not possible to judge ANY neighborhood as more or less welcoming than any other.
What you call “wiggling” I call attempting to assert, once again with you, that “some” is not the same as “all”. The attempt to change my statement into “they’re all like Whitey Bulger” is YOUR bullshit, not mine.
The fact is that it IS the neighborhood of Whitey Bulger. That’s just a fact.
I live a few blocks away from the Rosebud Diner, infamous as a mafia haunt years ago during the time of the Winter Hill Gang. As jimc pointed out, Somerville evolved in a very direction from Southie. That’s just TRUE. That’s one reason why I live in Somerville and not Southie. Somerville has parades, road races, walks, festivals, and host of other events all the time. NONE of them have the bitter, divisive, and polarizing nature of the Southie parade we are discussing — an event that has NOTHING to do with being Irish (unless you want to make the assertion, which I do NOT, that being Irish somehow implies prejudice like we see every year from this embarrassment).
Events that demonstrate this kind of bigotry don’t just happen, like random events from an unpredictable deity. You can wiggle all you want, and it won’t change the reality that Southie tolerates this embarrassment every year.
THAT is the point.
I just reread the paragraph in question. You go on to say that “this maroon exemplifies why I don’t like Southie.” So you yourself are saying pretty directly, never mind implying, that Whitey Bulger is what Southie means to you. You can’t just say you were just stating a fact as if it were neutral and completely devoid of any context. That was clearly not your intent. You have made Whitey Bulger an albotross around the neck of every Southie resident whether they deserve it or not. I am certainly not implying that being Irish implies prejudice; that frankly sounds like projection on your part. Next time, if you don’t want us to interpret your comments as making Southie all about Bulger, leave Bulger out of it!
The “maroon” I was referring to is the person featured in the thread-starter.
I didn’t choose him to be the organizer of the event.
isn’t it the Bunker Hill Parade? I have in-laws from there, and it always was like a big block party holiday there as far as I recall.
Yes indeed, Charlestown puts on the Bunker Hill Parade every year. I’ve been there several times and each time it was, indeed, “like a big block party” each time.
With absolutely NONE of the garbage that happens every year in its Southie doppleganger.
You’ve already said you never have been and never want to, so how do you know what goes on? From what I can tell there is a parade that excludes certain groups, and maybe a bit too much drinking, but I swear you have been awfully judgemental on this thread.
I dare say I’ve seen enough garbage in my 61 years to know how to recognize its stench. Did you actually read the statement, published downthread, issued by the “volunteer” organizers yesterday?
I don’t see a cavalcade of community and church leaders stepping forward to disavow that statement. I see NO evidence, except from the exchanges here, of other viewpoints in the neighborhood.
Since when did South Boston appoint you as it’s defender?
If the parade’s council does not represent the neighborhood, why isn’t somebody from Southie speaking out to criticize it? The press release statement is appalling.
…a lot of us decry “regularly scheduled denunciations” in other contexts. We are not responsible for, nor should we be presumed to hold, the opinions of our more vocal neighbors.
Where are the alternative parades? Where are the “diversity lunches”?
If this event is NOT representative of South Boston, then where is the evidence of that?
There’s alot of stuff in the world that goes on that I don’t like that I don’t publicly comment on. I much prefer to presume only what people actually say. We can presume the organizers are stuck in another century since they pretty much say so, but all residents of South Boston? Please – oh wait, now you’re going to tell me you didn’t actually intend to paint all residents of South Boston with that brush, right?
I never said “all”, or even “most”, as you’ve observed.
It isn’t like this year’s embarrassment is anything new. This is a situation where silence says as much as speaking out.
Bigotry that seeks to clothe itself in righteousness against what it presumes to be a safe target, but nonetheless bigotry. Southie, you know, a place filled with the document”wrong type of person”.
I said I don’t like the vibe of the neighborhood and never have.
That doesn’t mean that it’s “filled with” anybody. It does mean that it’s a neighborhood that has put on this exercise in divisiveness every year for the forty years I’ve been here.
It is true that years back there was a concerted effort to exclude gay people from marching even without openly displaying their lifestyle. However it is time to know there is a time and place for everything. Gays should march, but not use it as a venue for a specific civil rights message. This also goes for anyone else who has some social or political agenda. The St. Patrick’s Day Parade seems the wrong place to make such a point. Let Richard Tisei or any other gay prominently known citizen step out celebrating as others do. The point will be made without inciting “in your face” confrontation. Those politicians and celebrities who are known to be gay make a stronger accomplishment by just being part of the marchers without all the fuss.
Being gay isn’t a “lifestyle.” I didn’t choose to be bisexual. I am. Period. And as far as marching goes, a gay irishman or irish woman should most certainly march in the parade to show their heritage and show that they exist. The closet breeds bigotry.
…and I uprated both of your comments because it’s fine to be out of the closet and participate in any of the marching units, IMO. However (and this is partly a response to kbusch’s comment below), I think oetkb’s point, which I agree with, is that it makes no more sense for LGBTers to march as a group based on that identity than for others of us to march in a group simply to proclaim that we are straight, and that being part of a parade that does not double as a legislature or court protecting their rights just to make a point doesn’t get anyone very far.
Lots of people march in parades “as a group”.
Might I conclude that you have never seen an actual parade?
I’ve participated in them as well, usually as part of a group, however defined.
Every day of the week, straight people are in a parade – of entitlement and exclusivity – all over the world. LGBT individuals need to profess their truth as much as possible, to overcome the heteronormativity that pervades every single aspect of the culture of this entire planet.
That being said, the parade organizers obviously have every right to exclude whomever they choose – and to be vilified for doing so, as well.
Most community parades, like medieval parades of guilds, seem to show off the many roles that together constitute the community. Hooray, the police! Hooray, the fire truck! Hooray, the high school band!
Full admission of LGBTers to the Irish community would therefore seem to include participation in the Saint Patrick’s Day parade. This isn’t a matter of advocacy or campaigning, but merely acknowledged presence.
This parade has its contingents and floats from radio stations and car dealerships. There are dueling Star Wars characters. There are guys dressed up like Ghostbusters. And the police. The fire. The schools and churches and all sorts of civic organizations.
Legally, the organizers have the legal right not be forced to “say” anything they don’t want to say. That’s true even if what they “say” is a muddled mess. It’s their legal right to say the “message” of the parade is “Irish. Oh yeah, also Catholic, but only conservative Catholic. And yay Boston Fire Department. And definitely invade Iraq. And stormtroopers are cool. And Magic 106.7 plays the best mix of yesterday’s favorites and today’s hits. And buy your next car from Herb Chambers, 79 convenient locations.” But not other messages.
Legalities aside, they take just about everyone except LGBT groups and anti-war vets. Their “message” is completely muddled. They really don’t care what you “say” by marching, as long as you don’t say “gay pride” or “we shouldn’t be in Iraq.” The fact that their parade “says” all this other crap really takes away from their moral argument about “messages” and “heritage.” Personally I care about it because it’s the time of year where I have to listen to fellow liberal activists make blanket condemnatory statements about “the Irish” or “working-class Irish” or even “Southie,” and it pisses me off.
Here’s why I don’t agre with oetkb: this particular parade is fine with pushing a pro-war message, but a celebration of Irish heritage in South Boston organized by “veterans” excludes veterans of Irish heritage who oppose an immoral and unnecessary war? Legally they can say “yay war” instead of “yay peace,” but they should be called out and resisted when they do. They don’t get to define for the public Irish sentiment or veteran sentiment.
And the point of GLIB wanting to march in the early 90s was tied in very closely with people coming out in large numbers, feeling that it was important to stand up and be counted. So people could let the community know that, yes, we’re Irish and all this other stuff, but we’re also gay. Other cities had no problem with that. There are only a few St. Patrick’s Day parades stuck in the stone age.
you cannot hit people over the head when they have long entrenched views. The preference I’m stating is that known gay prominent people should show up to be part of the festivities. It could possibly move public opinion more successfully. The message: You know who we are and we are part of this great nation.
I was thinking about this a bit more, and I realized that there is another odd asymmetry about gay people and heterosexuals.
When introduced to a straight couple, no one wonders what sort of marital aids they may employ, in what positions they enjoy coitus, or in what sorts of oral sex they indulge. However, we often used to hear this complaint about someone who introduced himself or herself as gay: “I don’t want to know what they do in the bedroom!” As if the person were saying anything of the sort!
There seems to be something about being gay that makes it irreducibly statement-making. To just show up at a Saint Patrick’s Day Parade as gay and Irish gets turned into a challenge to ecclesiastical authority and South Boston as it was. It is impossible to be perceived as quiet.
I know people who grew up 3 houses away from Wacko Hurley and believe he is a jerk. They are Townies, raising diverse families, enjoying their neighborhood. Hard working women and men, union and non-union, blue collar, white collar and corporate types. Southie is NOT a neighborhood for “people like Whitey Bulger” but I do find it sad that anyone’s opposition to bigotry is expressed by adding to the cycle of bigotry.
I live in Somerville, steps away from Winter Hill. Neighborhoods all over Boston are populated by “hard working women and men, union and non-union, blue collar, white collar, and corporate types”.
Only Southie has an annual celebration of bigotry. Southie led the way in causing the public school segregation problem in the 1960s, and they led the way in throwing rocks at children on school buses in the 1970s.
Southie was in fact home to Whitey Bulger, a fact that our local media loves to repeat as they wallow in the endless Bulger stories. Like it or not, that’s the plain truth. Southie is also home to Billy Bulger, and is also a neighborhood “for people like Billy Bulger”. There IS a culture of Southie. Both Bulger brothers reflect that culture, as does the exercise in bigotry we are discussing in this thread.
I didn’t create the culture of Southie, I only describe it. Denying the culture of Southie only reinforces the bigotry of that culture.
I stand by my characterization.
So has my native Somerville, which once housed the Winter Hill Gang.
I think striker’s point is, it’s unfortunate that Southie’s evolution suffers because of a very few people like Wacko. The parade is not actually a celebration of bigotry; Wacko has warped it into that.
Thanks JimC
I completely agree with you and especially like your observation about Somerville, Winter Hill, and the Winter Hill Gang.
I also agree with you (and apparently striker57) that “Southie’s evolution suffers because of a very few people like Wacko”. That is sort of my point. The parade happens because the people who live in Southie tolerate it. Wacko runs it because he’s allowed to run it. You even seem to agree with me that the parade, while Wacko runs it, IS a celebration of bigotry.
I don’t doubt that Southie has changed (as has Somerville). I look forward to a day, hopefully soon, when this annual celebration of bigotry is no longer tolerated by Southie.
I’d rather look forward to an inclusive parade. The only thing I like about St. Patrick’s Day is its unwritten motto. “Everyone’s Irish on St. Patrick’s Day.”
Which, come to think of it, reminds me of this.
And yes, we ARE related. OK not really … probably distantly though, right?
I agree with you that a truly inclusive parade in Southie would be awesome.
What’s YOUR estimate for when that might happen?
I think it would happen fairly immediately, if someone could convince Wacko to hand over the reins. But that weird neurotic deference to old people … which oddly enough I associate more with the British … keeps it going like this.
Sounds like anyone who wants to do it need only apply for a permit. Better yet, the city itself should organize it.
As you observe (correctly, I hope), alternatives should be easy. Perhaps the city itself might do so, if the city truly has changed so that such an event is welcome. Again, the comparison between South Boston and Somerville comes to mind — the Somerville city government aggressively promotes such events, and has for years now.
I’m happy to agree that Southie has changed (for the better) when ANY of this happens.
Southie, like Somerville, has a number of cultures within its borders. Not every person in Southie attends the parade, thinks like Wacho or even cares if there is a parade. And since the parade is run by one organization – and not every last man, woman and child is a member – it does not not reflect all cultures in Southie.
You are doing nothing more than throwing a blanket of bigotry over an entire neighborhood that you admit you never go into, don’t experience and have no interest in. But you feel free to state:
describing a neighborhood and its people you have never experienced. Oh wait . . .you read about them. Ah. My, how superior of you.
You don’t have any experience with the people of Southie yet you label them. Labeling an entire people only reinforces bigotry.
I stand by my characterization.
Of COURSE “not every person in Southie” attends the parade. I never suggested anything of the sort. You throw around words like “every” and “all”, apparently because the strawman you have erected is more fun to fight with than what I actually wrote.
I didn’t have to visit Selma, Alabama to come to a conclusion about its racial attitudes. I don’t have to live in Arizona to come to a conclusion about its attitudes towards immigrants. If the people of Southie don’t want folks like me to characterize the neighborhood as I do (rightly or not), then those people can CHANGE their neighborhood. That’s their job, not mine.
Jimc makes the excellent point that Somerville, where I once lived, housed the Winter Hill gang. SOMETHING has caused Southie to evolve in a different direction from Somerville. Both neighborhoods started from similar roots and similar demographics.
Perhaps you might, more calmly, explain to ME why this anachronistic excuse for scapegoating called a “parade” (other groups were targeted in earlier times) happens in Southie, and why it’s counterpart DOES NOT happen in Somerville. The two neighborhoods today are VERY different. Mike Capuano is not Billy Bulger.
Roll your stomach if you will, but this annual episode in hate will worsen the reputation of Southie every year it continues.
I still live in Somerville.
The parade is not a reflection of how Southie has evolved. The parade is a reflection of how the parade hasn’t evolved. The parade is an old relic because it’s run by intolerant old relics. If the parade really reflected Southie today, I don’t think it would exclude people and it wouldn’t be run by someone who holds Wacko’s views. Politicians, business people, organized groups should all boycott the parade until it joins the mid-20th century.
I see a celebration of Irish pride, perfectly appropriate in a country which encourages cultures to celebrate their heritage. The only bigotry I see is the deliberate exclusion of LGBT people, but even that is not what is being celebrated. You’re making it sound as though this parade is exactly like a march of the Westboro Baptist Church.
However, some parade attendance might be akin to conservatives’ recent new-found fondness for Chick-Fil-A, or Sarah Palin’s new love of sodas in large containers.
then it is probably a ducky dynasty, i.e. Westboro Baptist Church.
And was also home to liberal heroes Speaker McCormack and Joe Moakley. One passed the Civil Rights Act and the other helped stop funding the Contras and killed the legislative veto (which you’re damn sure John Boehner would be using right now).
I might add I had a fine afternoon in Southie walking hand and hand with my brown fiancée and didn’t get any askew glances or have any issues. We had an older white couple ask her if she was from Chicago since she had her Cubbies hat on. That’s about it.
It’s pretty good. She’s fair to him without hiding the fact that he’s a jerk.
Rather than continuing to make fun of the poor old bigoted guy, who clearly is never going to change, why not take more concrete action? Such as boycotting sponsors of the parade?
Just go check out their website and look at their sponsors and make sure not to patronize any of them:
http://www.southbostonparade.org/
Even better. Contact them and tell them why.
is perhaps a “Dear Sponsor, Are you aware that — ? It surprises us you want to associate your fine brand with —. We ask you to please consider —-. Sincerely yours, k.b.usch”
I saw on TV this evening that your company is sponsoring the blatantly homophobic, bigoted St Patrick’s Day parade in South Boston, which is not allowing any openly gay-identifying groups to march – not even openly gay veterans.
The fact that your company feels it is appropriate to sponsor such bigotry leads to one conclusion: That you certainly don’t want a gay person to shop in your store, nor any of that person’s friends or family. Consider that a done deal.
I included my full name and city, as well, by the way.
Troubling statements about faith and country.
Yes, a fine neighborhood indeed.
The Council = a neighborhood of thousands. One and the same. No way to tell the difference, just as every Catholic thinks like Bill Donohue, right?
Your argument would be more persuasive if you offered links to the dozens of community and church leaders stepping forward to offer a different perspective — or even two or three. Instead, you repeat the same “every Catholic” foolishness that I’ve heard so often from Christopher.
“The Council”, and the parade it organizes, is not some obscure club squirreled away in the recesses of a basement someplace. The council makes the claim that it speaks for South Boston, not me. The best way to demonstrate that it does not is to present some other South Boston voices clamoring to be heard.
Other than a few fellow progressives here on BMG, I’ve heard nothing so far.
Somervilletom/danfromwaltham –
It’s not the job of every organization to argue with their neighbors to make you happy. Maybe you’d prefer that the Chamber of Commerce publish a statement on Sunday (somehow…). Maybe they should make your life easier by emailing it directly to you? Or perhaps drive to your house and leave it under your doormat? Because you’re too good to ever visit Southie, it’s clear you won’t listen to the preachers in the churches preaching tolerance, or talk to the neighbors rolling their eyes at these dinosaurs. No, they have the job of helping you overcome your prejudices, that you won’t endanger by contacting the people you’re condemning. Statements from elected politicians don’t count (there are plenty of those) or letters to the editor from Southie residents (plenty, of those too). No, only when certain people say certain things in a certain way to certain people will an irrational prejudice be proven irrational.
Give me a break — trying to talk you into seeing Southie as it truly is is thankless. As with most bigots, it’s easier to work around you than with you.
I guess my years of commenting here count for nothing in your book.
I guess you feel no need to explore why Southie is so different from communities across the state with similar economic and demographic challenges.
I guess it doesn’t bother you that events like this don’t happen in places like Lawrence, Lowell, Everett, Lynn, Revere, Chelsea, and the rest.
Just what DOES it take for you to admit that particular town or neighborhood might actually BE bigoted and prejudiced?
When I ask you for evidence, you respond with more insults.
Perhaps this Parade situation shows us something else that we should consider: We’ve had terrific successes with equal marriage. We shouldn’t confuse that success with progress on ending discrimination against LGBT individuals.
I wonder if the attitude’s displayed by South Boston’s parade council are, unfortunately, far more prevalent than we realize. With equal marriage, we might have made an important first step, but it looks like we have a long way to go.
The whole point is that we are all in agreement that this parade is a black mark on Southie, the city as a whole, and embarrassed those of us that are Irish American and sad that a day we picked to celebrate our heritage and fight anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bigotry now is being used to promote homophobic bigotry. As an Irish Catholic I am ashamed of the parade and feel it should follow the example not just of Holyoke and Worcester but big cities like Chicago, Pittsburgh, Detroit and others by being a truly inclusive parade.
But condemning an entire community that is diverse and making strides towards greater progress is also uncalled for.
New York City also refuses to allow gay marchers, would you call the entire city bigoted or just the AOH/KofC that sponsors it? This Irish Catholic has no qualms with calling out the War Vets Council, AOH or KofC, but you’ve consistently argued our community as a whole is prejudiced and that is uncalled for. This arguments hurts the efforts to find common ground.
I haven’t seen you present even the slightest positive evidence that Southie as a whole is bigoted. The fact that you are so willing to throw everyone in Southie into the same category is itself bigotry.
Stop bloviating, Tom. No your years of commenting does not give you the right to say anything you want without being challenged on it. Do you honestly think that your self-centered, self-righteous rants against Southie are actually accomplishing anything positive? Do you? You are deluded if you do.
If you stopped insisting on always being 100% right on every subject you would become a much more effective communicator.
I see what I see, I read what I read.
Who is it that you claim I’m prejudiced against? I don’t object to being challenged. I do object to being personally insulted while the evidence that I present is distorted, flat-out denied, or simply ignored.
Surely we agree that the video clip that began this thread is evidence of SOMETHING (characterize it as you choose). This is not the first year that this individual and this group has demonstrated these attitudes. Nor is the gay and lesbian community the only group that this group has targeted.
I suggest that this annual exercise in divisiveness, scapegoating, and bigotry does far more harm to the reputation of Southie than anything I might write here. I further suggest that whatever time you spend accusing me of bigotry might be better spent encouraging all those non-biased neighbors of Mr. Hurley to either make this event more inclusive or organize an alternative.
As jconway observed, this horse is dead.
Who are you prejudiced against? You appear to be prejudiced against people in Southie who don’t fit your stereotypical protrayal of them. There can be absolutely no doubt that you have passed a blanket judgement on the entire neighborhood based on your own personal perception.
Yes, we all agree that the parade organizers are bigoted. We do not agree that all of Southie fits the same characterization. I don’t know why you have repeatedly insisted on the latter when it it neither useful nor necessary to do so. It just makes you look pig-headed and closed minded.
You can complain all you like about being “insulted” but it is you that is doing the damage to your own reputation.
What is so difficult to understand about the difference between “all” and “some”? At least we agree that the parade organizers are bigoted, that’s a start.
I grew up in the south, my mother’s family of origin is from the deep South. There were MANY people in that region who supported the civil rights movement and who were appalled by the violence against blacks that was prevalent during that turbulent era. Yet the Jim Crow laws persisted. Yet the whites-only clubs and churches persisted (the Southern Baptist Convention was created as a result of racial tension between whites and blacks).
Would you be equally strident in condemning someone who characterized the Southern Baptist Convention as “racist”? Would a response that “not every Southern Baptist is racist” be an effective counter-argument?
A whole lot more people hang out in Davis Square today than during the era of the Winter Hill Gang. A whole lot of people avoided Davis Square during that time. To borrow your rhetoric, were ALL of those people “prejudiced against people in Somerville” because they avoided an area known for its mob-related activity?
How about Fields Corner — are the people who avoid Fields Corner prejudiced against ALL the residents of Dorchester because they choose to avoid the many gang-related shootings that tragically still happen there?
It won’t take a lot to change my attitude towards Southie. There are some very nice homes and streets, the nearby waterfront has beautiful views (my son attended U-MASS Boston). All it takes is one or two inclusive events to turn my avoidance in a different direction.
Those racist attitudes of the deep South changed dramatically in no small part because mainstream society ceased to tolerate them. I am proud to be part of the tradition that brought about that change.
I recognize that Southie is not Monroeville, Alabama. I ask you to recognize that not every resident of Monroeville was racist, either. I see differences only of degree between the parade we’re discussing and the mob that gathered outside the Monroeville jail.
I think that the question of what role those good, kind, Christian, non-racist citizens had in the events of “To Kill a Mockingbird” is perfectly legitimate. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about that question’s applicability to the good, kind, non-bigoted residents of Southie.
But it appears to be your difficulty not ours. That’s all we are trying to say.
We are saying *some* in Southie are clearly bigoted against gays, *some* are still bigoted against blacks. You Are the one making “ALL” statements by saying that Southie itself is bigoted towards gays, and apparently still bigoted towards blacks in your estimation. That’s what we have taken issue with. I am sure it’s the fault of the internet that these distinctions seem a lot more pronounced than you intended.
But nobody is defending the parade, and I would agree with you that to the extent the bigoted hosts of the parade benefit from the politicians, sponsors, and extra foot traffic that shows up the parade, it can be an indictment on those who choose to participate whether they are from Southie or not. A family from Somerville or Hingham that attends the parade is arguably culpable for it’s bigoted content, more culpable than a family that lives in Southie and chooses to ignore the parade. A different question is can someone enjoy the positive aspects of the parade (a diverse crowd wearing green, celebrating Ireland, the bagpipes, the breakfast roast) without endorsing this glaring black mark? I would say no.
The parade has for many years been a community event, long predating this controversy. I would absolutely say that enjoying the presence of the parade as it is in no way endorses the exclusion of those who are not there. If I lived in Southie my guess is there is a good chance I would come out to watch.
This is not the first controversy associated with this event.
What, if any, relationship do you see between, for example, your choice to attend the parade and the behavior of those residents of Monroeville, Alabama?
…so what I’m saying here is based on what I could gather from the Wikipedia article about the book.
From what I can tell a mob gathered outside the jail intent on lynching the black man falsely convicted of rape. If I have your reference correct then these scenarios aren’t the least bit similar. The mob was obviously racist and full of hate and manifesting that racism and hatred was the sole reason for showing up at the jail. In Boston we have a parade that is about Irish pride and patriotism which happens to be unnecessarily, and in the view of many of us inappropriately, picky about who can join them. That absolutely does not make every spectator a homophobe or even condoning homophobia. If this were a march by the Westboro Baptist Church on the other hand, the only context in which I would show up would be to participate in a counterprotest. It’s a difference beyond degree to kind. I would not show up at the jail except maybe to try to defend the prisoner.
[Responding to christopher’s 9:23p comment]
The mob was more than just “a mob”, that’s the point. There is much more going on in the novel/movie than just the mob. Some of the members of that mob are respected citizens.
The point of “To Kill a Mockingbird” is the unfolding of the entire story, and the role that the entire town played in it. Good neighbors of Atticus Finch who ostracised him because he defended the accused. The scary recluse that everyone feared who turned out to be a hero.
Real life has deeper texture than “the mob” or “every spectator” or all the other shortcuts that keep diverting us and that make this exchange, at least for me, very difficult.
…good neighbors or not…
The particular actions you refer to seem to have racism at their core in a way that I submit homophobia does not in just showing up to watch a parade where exclusion is not at the core.
I encourage you to watch the movie or read the book. You won’t regret it.
Perhaps it is the medium that is contributing to the disconnect here.
In your last paragraph, I think you made the same argument that I’ve been trying to make — no more, no less.
I particularly like your last question. I, too, say “no”. That’s all I’ve been attempting to say here.
I don’t know why my last comment appears below my prior response to Christopher.
I was attempting to respond to jconway’s comment.
Nesting no longer works this far over.
What type of “public safety” do they think they’re providing to LGBT individuals who live in South Boston, when they tacitly imply that LGBT community is LESS WORTHY than others to march in their frigging parade? Are they not aware of how such a message leads to violence against LGBT people?
They could say not in our church, I suppose, but since when are they the voice of the whole city, or even all of Southie? You also should not fall into the trap of thinking they speak for anyone besides their specific organization.
I’m ready to hear from some … no, any … other organization that claims to represent Southie.
Where are the neighbors? Where is a local Chamber of Commerce? The community is represented on the Boston City Council by Bill Linehan. How much community support is being enjoyed by Linda Dorcena Forry?
From the first link:
Funny, I don’t see anything from Mr. Linehan disavowing the bigotry of the parade organizers. I note that Mr. Linehan himself has decided to spend the day in Ireland. I don’t see anything from ANYBODY (except here) claiming that the parade organizers or the parade itself is not representative of South Boston.
Sorry, but this dog (“fall into the trap of …”) won’t hunt. South Boston and its politicians have been speaking with this “voice” for forty years. They spoke this way about minorities during the desegregation crisis (for crying out loud, the CREATED the desegregation crisis), about anti-war protesters, and more recently about gay and lesbian communities.
I invite you to offer some evidence — any evidence — that South Boston offers anything but support for this parade and its organizers.
Bigotry is an accusation. As the accuser the burden of proof is on YOU to show that people are bigoted. So far we only have evidence that THIS ORGANIZATION is bigoted. They can claim to speak for South Boston all they want, but this is a private organization that speaks only for its members and possibly in reality only the executive board thereof. If this were an elected body like a South Boston Advisory Neighborhood Commission similar to what they have in DC, they would have a better claim of being representative and you would have a better claim to call them on it.
I’d love to know who were the applicants to march in the parade whose agenda is to destroy “our faith, this town and our Country.” LOL
Their press releases are not just embarrassing. They are appalling. Here is another extraordinary statement that they made:
And, why isn’t anybody from Southie speaking out in opposition?
I think that’s a reference to the Veterans for Peace or whatever their name is.
Apologies….this is intended to be a post unto itself (cuz it deserves singular recognition) but for some reason when I try to publish the entire contents of the post disappear. I have tried and re-tried a dozen times…..logged out/logged back in……anyways, here the “Happy” anti-dote to the sorry-a$$ wacko from Southie.
They say you can view most any situation in life as the cup being “half-full” or “half-empty.”
Cry a river for Southie or come to the hills of Holyoke for a real St. Pat’s Parade where the craic flows and the cups are always full.
Mayor Alex Morse, (D) Holyoke serving his second term after an historic election to the seat as the youngest and first openly gay man to serve the great city of Holyoke has enthusiastically voiced his support for the Holyoke High School (his alma mater) Gay Straight Alliance to march in the parade.
Mayor Morse has also invited those who have had the Boston St. Patrick’s Day committee refuse their participation based upon discrimination regarding sexuality to come the beautiful counties in the west……just like the ole sod (Ciarriah, Gaillimhe, Corcaigh!)…come to the west!
Southie, your cousins in Holyoke are marching all over ye.
Morse was a fluke, he was re-elected by a comfortable margin in spite of a couple of political mis-steps in his first term.