If Donald Trump is elected president and fulfills his promise to build The Wall and keep “those people” out of the USA, there are going to be some very upset people here.
Where will Mitt Romney and his ilk find laborers to tend to the gardens of their mansions?
Where will Meg Whitman and her friends find nannies and housekeepers?
Where will the Walton Family find cleaning crews for their Walmart Empire?
Where will Smithfield Foods find workers to exploit?
And finally, how will Donald Trump find enough low wage workers to exploit in the construction and maintenance of his real estate empire?
Please share widely!
Personally I’ve never liked the concept of walling in the United States. In my mind that’s not something free countries do.
I was unable to get the program to link to the actual websites that offer proof that they are here illegally. However, any web search will take you there.
Gee…maybe they would have to pay that living wage you talk about.
Unless you are suggesting that ‘they’ have a use in doing jobs that ‘Americans won’t do’ and you are comfortable with the continued importation of an economic underclass to serve us.
…..for the starvation wages being offered by the rentier class
Didn’t they report that some crops (strawberries) aren’t getting harvested because the farmers can’t find people willing to work for $17 per hour in Calif?
It looks like farms are having to treat their workers like human beings.
Barack is enforcing the immigration laws more. Workers are scarcer. The ones that are here working are doing better. Win-win.
Barack Obama and the Democrats have been both enforcing and attempting to reform the immigration laws for the last eight years. It is the GOP that has been stonewalling EVERY attempt.
Let’s just be sure we stay clear about who is working for the 99% and who is working against it.
It’s $10 per hour, with up to a bonus $17 for picking extra fruit in that hour.
You’d probably have to really work hard to hit that mark.
Gee…maybe they would have to pay that living wage you talk about.
Unless you are suggesting that ‘they’ have a use in doing jobs that ‘Americans won’t do’ and you are comfortable with the continued importation of an economic underclass to serve us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q0z9Yhp0VQ
Gee John is there anything else you think “those people” are capable of doing?
Ask the Waltons, the Romney’s and the rest of them.
http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html
It’s one thing to advocate for a consistent and enforceable policy regarding our border, but Trump seems to be speaking to an audience somehow feels personally offended by the presence of the undocumented. I don’t feel like 11-12 million people who don’t have their paperwork in order is hurting or taking anything away from me, so what am I missing?
xenophobia or just plain hate.
Donald Trump is the latest version of George Wallace with his passionate supporters who show their patriotism by beating hispanics and will make this country great again by urinating on the homeless.
The relentless drumbeat of lies, distortions, prejudice, hate, and scapegoating has been a staple of the Fox News and the GOP for decades. It permeates the “humor” of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and the rest of the sycophants.
This crowd has been directing the hurt, anger, pain, and frustration caused by their own failed policies towards scapegoats like “illegals” (I won’t repeat the more commonly used terms) and minorities because, among other things, it turns their biggest vulnerabilities into a potent political weapon.
Demagogues have been doing this for as long as there have been demagogues.
I don’t want illegal Polish or Irish here either.
I join you not wanting any illegal activity by anyone. I don’t want illegal Polish or Irish immigrants here, I don’t want employers to illegal withhold wages from anyone, I don’t want anyone to illegally employ anyone else (where by “illegally employ”, I mean pay them under the table without reporting or paying taxes on whatever compensation is offered).
Great.
Do you think illegal Polish or Irish immigrants have ANY measurable impact on the Massachusetts or US economy?
Do you think Donald Trump, the GOP, or any of the Fox News clowns are talking about illegal Polish or Irish immigrants?
I hope your answer is “No”. I hope you agree that they are talking about illegal Hispanic immigrants (at least here in the US. In Germany, the current scapegoats are the Turks). I also hope you agree that whatever adverse economic impact these illegal immigrants may have is absolutely dwarfed by the impact of the economic policies that directly benefit those officials who make the loudest noises about “illegal immigration.
Immigrants, legal and illegal, are willing to do work that Americans won’t do at the wages that American employers are willing to pay. Many of those employers pay those immigrants — legal and illegal — illegally low wages, illegally refuse to withhold federal and local taxes (so that those workers cannot receive social security or unemployment benefits), or illegally insist on those workers laboring in conditions that are illegal and that American workers will not tolerate.
Fox News and the GOP would have you believe that all this is caused by the immigrants (both illegal and legal) who are the victims of this. I suggest that the reality is that it is caused by a combination of employer value decisions (because the employers are often themselves squeezed dry by the current economy) or consumer value decisions (because consumers are unwilling or unable to pay more for basic goods and services).
A small business owner who is unable to feed his or her family or send his or her children to college is far more likely to illegally squeeze his workers than a more prosperous business owner. A consumer who is unable to feed his or her family or send his or her children to college is far more likely to choose a lower priced item or service, even if they know that that low price comes at the expense of the workers who produce it.
The 1% have been sucking wealth out of the economy at rates unseen seen the Gilded Era. The immigrants (legal and illegal), small business owners, and consumers are each victims of that. You and I are victims of that.
Immigrants — legal and illegal, Polish, Irish, Mexican, Brazilian, and all the others — are not the problem. The very wealthy — people like Donald Trump — are the problem.
If they are not here business owners cannot take advantage of them, and the owners will have to place a higher value on the workers they have. If they have more value to the owners they will get better benefits and pay.
A friend is a foreman for a general contractor in North Carolina. At the height of the building boom they were doing 30-40 high end homes ($500,000) a year. In order to compete with other companies you control costs. He used illegal crews (especially sheet rocking and roofers). It was routine throughout the area to “sub-contract” that work.
If one of the workers got hurt peer pressure prevented them from complaining and fear of deportation kept them from making much of a fuss. The Mexicans did the roofing, Brazilians the sheet-rocking.
The “market” is bringing down the cost of transport in Boston through “Uber”. What if “illegal” drivers (uninsured, unregistered vehicles) were on the street competing with Uber? Would some people use them, sure they would. But they won’t be because driving is fairly well regulated and access to the road is limited to “legal” drivers.
Sorry, scott12mass, but you’re just not thinking clearly about this.
We seem to agree that your general contractor in North Carolina is illegally exploiting immigrant labor (legal and illegal). You blame the Mexicans and Brazilians. I blame the contractor. I blame the culture of North Carolina that apparently values cheap housing over worker safety. It appears that North Carolina workers won’t do the same work under the same conditions as “the Mexicans” and “the Brazilians”. Whose fault is that? I blame the demagogues who use their influence to manipulate the contractors, residents, and workers of North Carolina into attacking the least powerful and least affluent victims instead of the actual perpetrators of this illegal business network.
These sort of abuses by employers are why labor unions were organized a century ago. Do you support those labor unions with the same enthusiasm that you apparently embrace the unjustified scapegoating?
If you want to use taxi drivers as an analogy, then the role of your North Carolina contractors is played by the current taxi companies, not Uber. If it were widely known and readily documented that Boston-area taxi companies were knowingly hiring and underpaying illegal drivers, would your energy be focused on those drivers, or on the companies whose use of them is endangering the public?
Your comments sadly exemplify the way that otherwise reasonable and intelligent people are whipped into hysteria by unprincipled media outlets like Fox News, the right-wing echo-chamber, and the right-wing politicians who pander to them. Your comments are what happens when you are subjected to a constant barrage of disinformation that causes you to connect dots into bizarrely contorted conclusions that hurt you, hurt me, hurt the rest of us, and benefit ONLY the 1% (or 0.1% or 0.01%) who intentionally fabricate the lies.
Your comments are, sadly, hysteria exemplified. Please note that I not attacking YOU. You are a victim of this as much as any abused worker.
No offense Tom. I agree it is the owners who are the ones using the workers. But the use of illegals is the status quo, and the contractor wouldn’t have been in business if he didn’t cut corners where he could. I don’t blame the illegals, but if they weren’t here in the first place they couldn’t get used.
Fine the contractors, what they do is illegal. Even though it was explained to me that since they were actually using a “sub-contractor” they were exempt from responsibility.
There are still people who say that a woman who is raped after dark on the Esplanade shouldn’t have been there, and who blame her for the attack rather than agree that the rapist is a criminal who should be caught and prosecuted. If there is a “rape problem” on the Esplanade, the cause is the rapist(s) — not the victims.
A business who intentionally arranges to purchase stolen goods from another company cannot evade liability by claiming that the other company was a sub-contractor. The law has been clear for years about the documentation required by a contractor to a subcontractor regarding immigration status.
The legal framework needed to end these abuses has been in place for years, even decades. These employer abuses are commonplace because we — you and I — tolerate them.
n/m
The challenge for the Democrats is to resist answering this with complicated arguments about economic efficiency and build upon what scott12mass wants to happen, that is, that the people who work hard to build our dwellings are compensated fairly for what they do. Let’s assume for the moment that there’s no quality differential in the work that any group does, and that as a community of Americans we care about every person who is a citizen of the US. (I think that on an emotional level, that’s what the GOP base doesn’t believe about “liberals.”)
If unfair competition is the problem, why is “Obama” being blamed for everything? Why can’t the workers who are being displaced go to a local or state authority and have the contractor who’s breaking the law hauled into court? Scott, I would be interested to hear your friend’s answer to this.
…that we should offer immunity on the question of legal status for any person who comes forward to report workplace abuses. The reason employers figure they can get away with exploitation is that they know their victims won’t complain to authorities lest they get themselves in trouble.
The reason certain jobs use more illegals than others is the regulatory powers. Electricians, plumbers they pull permits and have their work signed off. Landscapers, roofers, sheet rock are “controlled” under a general contracting liscense and only have the final product inspected when an occupancy permit is issued.
A bounty system, akin to reporting IRS cheats is maybe a possibility.
You mean a bounty system where illegal employers are forced to pay taxes, the employers share of social security withholdings, and to each worker the unpaid balance of the difference between the prevailing (union!) wage and whatever the worker was already paid. Plus another 50% as a penalty, to be used to fund enforcement costs against illegal employers and legal expenses for exploited workers.
I’m sure that’s the sort of “bounty system” you have in mind, right?
Oh, and finally, “illegal” is an adjective — not a noun. You are talking about “illegal workers”. They are, after all, people just like you and me. There is more to the identity of each than their immigration status.
doesn’t have to be the union rate, but employers who hire illegals should be penalized. I want laws followed.
I’d be happy with something along the lines of “prevailing wage”.
Without disagreeing with my friends sue-kennedy and somervilletom below, I’ll try to summarize the most frequently expressed “harms” that I’ve read, without making any judgment upon their accuracy.
(1) “I couldn’t become a [fill in the blank] because of affirmative action” (most common speaker is white guy who supposedly couldn’t become a policeman/fireman despite scores on an aptitude test).
(2) “The [fill in the blank] are taking all the jobs in [blank] because they are illegally working for less money” (most commonly, alleged for Hispanics and construction, but can also be Asians and high tech).
(3) “The difference is that my ancestors came here LEGALLY” — this one makes me a little crazy, but I think what it means is “I worked all my life and didn’t break any major laws, so how come I am not more financially secure? I shouldn’t have to pay taxes for [other race/ethnicity/location] ”
I really hope that Team Blue has some answers for these people, the amount of demagoguery on the other side is truly frightening.
I agree that these are three common complaints. Here’s my reaction to them:
1. In Massachusetts, police and firefighter slots are taken by relatives and friends of current police and firefighters far more often than “affirmative action”. I think that practice spreads far beyond Massachusetts, and is one reason why affirmative action programs are needed.
2. The uncomfortable truth in construction and high-tech is that Hispanics work harder than most Americans in construction, and Asians work harder, are more disciplined, and often just plain smarter than many Americans in high-tech. I don’t know about wages in construction, but in high-tech most of the whining about Asians working for lower wages is just plain false. The Asians I know in high tech make as much or more than their Anglo counterparts.
3. Wealth and income concentration is much more severe today than in the past. Demand for low- and medium-skilled workers was much higher in the past than today. Working conditions for ALL workers, legal and illegal, were far worse and pay was lower during the “Ellis Island” years than today. The principal drain on income and wealth generation of working people today is the 1% (or 0.1% or 0.01%), not illegal immigrants.
Team Blue is more likely to offer real answers than Team Red. “Team Sanders” is the only team talking about, never mind offering substantive proposals for these concerns today. Elizabeth Warren is the designated hitter for Team Blue. I hope that whoever wins the Team Blue primaries is fully capable of knocking these out of the park by the time spring training (the primaries) is finished and the season begins.
Regarding your item 3, I think it’s worth repeating that here in the Boston area, if the speaker’s ancestors came from Ireland, then they suffered some of the most intense prejudice and discrimination of any ethnic minority in history.
There was a long history of illegal immigration from Ireland. The animus against both legal and illegal Irish was just as intense and just as unfair as that against Hispanics and Mexicans today. Consequences and reverberations of that dark history are all around us today, ranging from the dominance of Irish surnames in Massachusetts politics and the prominence of Boston College (created so that Irish immigrants could get a college degree, because no other area colleges would admit them) to the continued use of disparaging slang like “Paddy Wagon”.
Perhaps an aspect of our answer to those whose ancestors were Irish is something along the lines of “Why do you want to burden another group today with the same abuses your ancestors overcame?”
It’s why whenever anyone in Southie critiqued Speaker McCormick for backing desegregation, civil rights or fair housing he’d just point them to the No Irish Need Apply sign hanging on his wall.
it’s difficult to explain why deeply held beliefs that immigrants take jobs, drain the economy and cost taxpayers money when all independent studies continue to show immigrants create jobs, boost economic activity and are net revenue payers.
Why More Immigration No Less is Key To Economic Growth
Why American Cities Are Fighting to Attract Immigrants
The Mexicans are not taking your money – it’s the Donald Trump’s living high on your sweat.
Come on Free Market cheerleaders, lets here it for the free flow of capital, products and LABOR. Don’t you want less government?
From the political point of view, it’s important that voters believe that “if immigrants aren’t doing these jobs, American citizens will do them at higher wages.” From economics, we know that this isn’t really true. As the price of something goes up, less of it will be demanded. If new houses become more expensive, fewer will be built.
Or keep in mind the substitution effect — for instance, more of the work could be done offsite/offshore at lower wages.
For instance, this picture and argument from
http://modularhomeowners.com/why-modular-homes-are-so-much-less-expensive/
“These men are at the roofing station. If the factory has a high enough volume, they will work on roofing all day, every day.”
Not being a roofer myself(!), I can’t evaluate their claims. But there’s nothing to say that these roof panel assemblers couldn’t be foreign nationals doing the same job in a non-US location.
I agree with you, about both the emotions and also the economics.
I think both have their roots in the plundering of the 99%. When consumers have more wealth, consumers spend more. When consumers spend more, prosperity returns. A billion dollars in the hands of 100,000 consumers creates far more prosperity than that same billion dollars in the account of an Abigail Johnson.
According to Forbes Magazine, Nine billionaires live in Massachusetts in 2015:
1. Abigail Johnson: $13.4 B
2. Edward C. Johnson, 3rd: $7.4 B
3. Robert Kraft: $4.3 B
4. Jim Davis & family: $3.6 B
5. Amos Hostetter: $3.1 B
6. Phillip Ragon: $1.5 B
7. Seth Klarman: $1.5 B
8. Valentin Gapontsev & family: $1.2 B
9. Paul Fireman $1 B
Nine individuals — THIRTY SEVEN BILLION DOLLARS.
Here is the same list from 2013, two short years ago:
1. Abigail Johnson: $12.7 B
2. Edward C. Johnson, 3rd: $7.0 B
3. Amos Hostetter: $2.7 B
4. Jim Davis & family: $2.3 B
5. Robert Kraft: $2.3 B
6. Phillip Ragon: $1.5 B
7. Valentin Gapontsev & family: $1.3 B
8. Seth Klarman: $1.05 B
It is instructive to compare these two (I’ll elide newcomer Paul Fireman from the comparison).
Eight wealthiest individuals in Massachusetts:
2015 Total: $36.0 B
2013 Total: $30.8 B
The net worth of the eight wealthiest people in Massachusetts increased by $5.2 B. That’s more than FIVE BILLION dollars over two years, spread among eight people — an average increase of $312.5 M each.
Would anybody like to hazard a guess about how much of that $5.2 B increase was taxed, and at what rate? In many parts of this state, a $31,000/year salary is considered “middle class”. That’s ONE HUNDRED times less than the average annual increase in net worth of our 8 wealthiest people. Call me a cynic, but I’ll be astonished if the actual tax rate paid by those eight is comparable to the tax burden on a family earning one hundreds times less.
Just for comparison, a meagerly 5% per year return (easily accomplished in any of the funds managed by Ms. Johnson or her father) on the 2015 total (all 9) yields $1.85 B per year. We Democrats, with great fanfare and trumpets, pushed through a $3/hour minimum wage increaase last year (against opposition from the GOP, of course), spread over three years (to protect employers from such a dramatic change, the argument went).
There are 2,000 billable hours per year with a 40-hour work week and two weeks of vacation (I’m ignoring Leap Years for this example). If that total $3/hour increase were all taken in one year, it would cost $6,000 per worker.
That meager 5% return, from these nine individuals alone, would cover the cost to employers of the entire $3/hour minimum wage increase for those 308,333 workers.
More than THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND WORKERS.
Is it so very unreasonable to find a way take that 5% in taxes?
Whether we talk about emotions, economics, or both, I think it’s time we start talking about just how wealthy our very wealthy are. I think it’s time we spend less time lying about the “burden” placed by the poorest among us, and start talking about the obligations of our wealthiest.
We have more than enough wealth, and more than enough increase in wealth (as opposed to “income”) to dramatically improve the emotions and economics of the 99% of us.
I think it’s time to shine the spotlight on the people at the TOP of our economy, rather than the bottom.
Even I struggle to absorb these multiples.
The average annual increase in net worth of these 8 is more than TEN THOUSAND times that hypothetical $31,000 family.
how removing 11 mil people will increase new construction or any economic activity.