It’s a race between Article 25, Impeachment, and Resignation. We may have the most venal Republicans ever in office. They may be willing to sell their mother’s healthcare down the river for the sake of freedom. They may be willing to kill every norm in politics to provide tax cuts to the very rich. They may be willing to forego democratic principles to stay in power.
But there are enough grownup’s in the world who vote that the GOP can’t last much longer without dealing Trump. He’s a stupid, hyperactive kid with a pocketful of matches in a room full of paper who will burn down our country and the rest of the world. The GOP has some explaining to do.
President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.
The information the president relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.
The partner had not given the United States permission to share the material with Russia, and officials said Trump’s decision to do so endangers cooperation from an ally that has access to the inner workings of the Islamic State. After Trump’s meeting, senior White House officials took steps to contain the damage, placing calls to the CIA and the National Security Agency.
“This is code-word information,” said a U.S. official familiar with the matter, using terminology that refers to one of the highest classification levels used by American spy agencies. Trump “revealed more information to the Russian ambassador than we have shared with our own allies.”
H.R. McMaster just tried to blow smoke up the collective arse of America. He took no questions. The Post is sticking by its story. Trump is too stupid to know what he’s doing. He’s damaging national security. He’s endangering our allies. This is incredibly, incredibly incredible. The biggest threat to national security is our president whose ignorance and hubris, abetted by the Republican Party, bring a new disaster every two or three days.
Two truths of the Trump Era:
1) Trump will never change
2) GOP will never stop him
So while I completely agree on the merits of impeachment or the 25th amendment, neither solution will happen so long as the GOP is in charge. And we will not be able to take back Congress running on Russia. We need a real kitchen table agenda that wins back the middle class voters who defected to Trump in 2016.
While I agree with you, I think you’ve starkly identified the most important existential threat to the US that we face today. I’m not sure we have time to wait for that kitchen table agenda to win back those voters. I think that change is unlikely to happen by the 2018 mid-terms.
Mr. Trump just BETRAYED the source of the information he gave the Russians. That source is burned, and won’t be back. Our national refusal to do anything about these betrayals drives away ALL of our allies.
I fear we are watching the collapse of the sovereign US, driven by the flagrant moral and intellectual bankruptcy of our current GOP elected officials. If you are correct, and I fear you are, I suggest that it will be far too late to undo the damage being done each and every day.
We are passing tipping points each and every day, with each and every such betrayal.
Never say never (or always). The best predictions are in percentages, not ultimates.
No one knows the future. It’s foolish to predict it in absolutes. Identify as many variables as you can, try to determine the likelihood of those things happening, then make a judgement. You starting to sound like the stupid lefties that were calling TrumpRussia a McCarthyist witch hunt and a distraction.
Sure, we need a domestic, kitchen table agenda, but we don’t always get to choose which issues present themselves and what battles we have to fight. Foreign policy is one of your areas. Get in the game.
I resent that comparison-I’ve long been a lone voice arguing that this is serious and that Wikileaks isn’t the friend the left thinks it is but a deep cover for Russian intelligence. I have never defended Russia or downplayed its role in this sordid affair.
I’ve also been a lone voice arguing that the Democrats won’t get back a Congressional majority without pivoting to economic issues relevant to middle class voters.
There’s no reason folks like Adam Schiff and Mark Warner shouldn’t continue to focus on this issue exclusively, talk the press, and focus the attention of the public on these potential high crimes and misdemeanors. Your focus on this issue is also admirable and one I’ve tried to assist with.
McConnell down to Collins normalizing the Comey firing was the Rubicon the Republicans in both houses decided to cross where they put party before country. Until that party is removed from power by the voters we will not see an independent investigation or justice in this case.
And that party will only be removed from power if we win the right combination of Trump and Hillary districts in the fall. So all of this is connected. I agree with Tom that the country is in far worse shape than it was when he was my age and Republicans and the press put loyalty to the Republic first during Watergate. I have far less faith than you do that there will eventually be an outrage too far where the GOP turns on the President. They’ve had numerous opportunities throughout the last two years and five months to do so and have not.
If I’m wrong, I apologize. But when you say nothing will be done about Trump, and we need to focus on domestic issues… well, that’s what the lefties have been saying.
Strategically, we need to tie Trump to the Republicans of the last 25 years. The domestic agenda is going to be sidelined until #RussiaTrump is resolved.
You are completely misreading me.
I am saying nothing will be done about Trump until we get a Democratic Congress and we will not get a Democratic Congress without a compelling economic message for the midterms. Full stop.
I have zero faith that the there is a line Trump can cross that will lead to the massive Republican defections required for a truly independent investigation or impeachment proceeding to occur. Do you have any evidence or viable predictions otherwise?
I think that goes against everything we have seen for the last five months and the two years preceding that.. Trump took over their party and is holding them all hostage and its a Faustian bargain Ryan and McConnell and even Collins are willing to make to pass long time right wing policy priorities.
This is way different than being a Greenwald and asserting that all leaks are awesome or being a Putin apologize like the Nation or Jill Stein. Frankly the mainstream of the Democratic Party took 9 long years to catch up to the views I’ve held on Russia since the Georgia War so I strongly resent the implication I am going soft on this issue. I am not. But the Republican Party totally has and that means game over for impeachment until 2018. You could get a tape of Trump calling Putin to thank him for hacking Clinton and they wouldn’t budge.
Only a sith deals in absolutes
Meh.
Every fascist, anywhere, of any consequence whatsoever, achieved power after a whirlwind period of chaos and turmoil and thereafter coasted for a long, long time on the ‘see, isn’t everything so much calmer with me in charge?” line. The trick, for the GOP, is in the timing: too soon and the brief period of chaos will be forgotten before 2018; too late and they risk losing control of it.
A year from now, after Trump has been binned, and likely Pence also, Acting-President Ryan will barnstorm the country shamelessly trumpeting stability and calm and urging both a reward for the GOP’s stalwart defense of the Constitution and a ‘stay the course’ for 2018. I predict that he will also, with a straight face, brag about the trains running on time.
None of it will, in the least, be true but as we’ve seen with a large segment of voters, that doesn’t, in the least, matter.
We’re operating in fairly deep uncertainty, but I wouldn’t put a lot of money on Pence or Ryan. The GOP will likely want Trump out before 2018 if it looks like the Dems have a chance at Congress. Cook’s Political Report estimates a 50% chance.
Pence was mixed up in the Flynn fiasco in the transition; it’s likely he lied to the public, if not investigators.
The release of the GOP’s secret meeting (Kevin McCarthy joking about Rohrbacher and Trump being paid by the Russians) is interesting. Axios is reporting House leaders are worried about what else might have been taped. This story was released in Ukraine, which has no love for the Trump camp. The question is, who made the tape and how.
I hear this every day on the news: “President Trump has just (insert illegal activity here) in an unprecedented move that Republicans have applauded/ignored/denied (pick one). Meanwhile Democrats have condemned this action but are totally helpless in actually doing something about it – until they gain control of the house or senate, which at this moment, looks unlikely as they have yet to change their message to the American working class voters….
Nah, I hear the whole Russia thing is overhyped. Nobody cares. #LOLRussia
I care-all of us here care-but for Mark to boldly argue Trumps days are numbered is to assume the Republican Party cares and time and time again they have proven they will put party before country on this issue. So long as they do that impeachment and even an independent investigation is off the table for at least the next year and a half.
That’s a long time for the short attention spans of our media and voting public. So by all means the Democrats are doing their best to enforce the law and we could absolutely see more devastating revelations in the weeks and months ahead that drag this out and tank his numbers even further.
Whether that’s sufficienct to affect members of the house enjoying a gerrymandered majority or Senators representing states that went for Trump is another matter entirely. HP’s piece on how close they are to calling an Article V is really frightening in this environment, as is growing proof that voter suppression played a role along with the hacking. So I’m taking this seriously-you’re taking this seriously-Democrats in Congress are taking this seriously and so far so is the media. Is that enough in this environment to take him down? I’m not sold.
You shouldn’t be sold.
As I’m (admittedly) preaching, the right way to frame the questions is, what are the chances Trump will be gone before his term is up? Or much sooner? Bookies are giving him 2 to 1 odds that he won’t finish his term.
The media and the public’s attention span are factors. As is the number of people who are concerned. The guy’s been in office 3 months! It’s going to take a while for the idiots to notice that they backed the wrong horse. Some will never do so. I think enough will.
The craziness isn’t going to stop. He’s up to more than one fiasco a week. People don’t want this to keep going, even his supporters.
“even his supporters”-I want to see evidence of that. So far they seem to be sticking to him harder than ever and Fox News has morphed into RT on this question in the last five months dismissing the leak of intel as irrelevant while they spent 18 months crucifying Hillary over something far less serious. Not a single Republican member of Congress is calling for a special prosecutor. Not a single Fox News employee. And so far the post-Comey polling shows little movement on this question.
It’s serving as a broader litmus test for how you feel about Trump which is a very troubling sign. It ought not to be. If you love our Constitution you should oppose his firing Comey, oppose his leaking of intel to our enemies, and support an independent investigation even if you want to build the freakin wall. But right wing Republicans and the voters that enable them do not care.
And let me be clear-I absolutely appreciate your doggedness on this issue and completely agree with your take that it *should* be impeachable and *should* be investigated and *is* incredibly alarming and important. I *want* you to be right. So we will have to see how this plays out. So far I see a broken record of outrages that should make Turmp unacceptable followed by Republican and voter indifference.
Chris Coons said this morning on NPR that we should hold off on a special prosecutor and let the Senate investigation proceed. Last week, he said they don’t trust Rosenstein to appoint someone impartial.
We’re in tough shape today in terms of checks and balances because of the Republican Party’s War on America. We used to rely on norms. They destroyed them. We used to be able to count on a president, who, if not quite competent, would make sure he staffed the White House with competent people. The genealogy of Trump runs back to Reagan, though Trump is exponentially worse than Reagan. Bush, Candidate Palin, and Trump. There’s a pattern here.
Exactly-you eloquently identified the problem here which is why I am far less optimistic that we will see a solution to this mess before 2018. I mean, what a lousy precedent if we truly are running on impeachment and restoring checks and balances in 18′. They’ve forced our hands-but it makes a mockery of what this republic is supposed to be and really casts doubt on its viability going forward.
My in laws had to protest in the streets to get free and fair elections in their country and their two party system is between the authoritarian party of the old (maybe new?) regime and its democratic opposition which occasionally governs, usually ineptly.
Duterte has already politicized the judiciary and used it to arrest his opponents on trumped up charges. And it’s important to remember their constitution is a carbon copy of ours, it’s just that their norms are a lot newer and easier to circumvent. Their deep state is also working with him-ours is still an open question.
Well, at least it appears our judiciary remembers they don’t work for the President.
Does the Republican Party in Congress care? No. Do a sufficient number of swing voters care to endanger the Republican majority? Not yet. A majority of Americans care about this issue, just as a majority of Americans voted for Hillary Clinton. But we are not living in a democracy, we are living in a republican system increasingly rigged to produce Republican governments and that is a reality we have to acknowledge. A majority of swing voters do care about losing their health care-and if that’s the issue we use to get a majority that can impeach and investigate than that’s the issue we should push. I am simply being a pragmatist about this and not an idealist clinging to the myth that our system of checks and balances is as strong as it was in 1974.
I think we should focus on 2018. Nothing Trump does will matter unless he becomes a problem for Congressional Republicans, which is possible but not likely.
People are saying this is bad, and it is, but it’s not actually the worst thing a president can do. We saw a president do the worst thing possible: start a war preemptively on false pretenses. And during all that, impeachment never even came up.
I don’t share your optimistic view that the Iraq debacle was the “worst thing possible”. As bad as Iraq was, it was far away and conventional. It has taken more than decade for the awful consequences of that blunder to be more obvious.
Mr. Trump might provoke a nuclear exchange with North Korea. That might happen at any time, and the consequences will be instantaneous. The newest missile tested can apparently reach Guam – what do you think happens if North Korea nukes Guam?
Mr. Trump has already betrayed American allies by revealing their identity to the Russians. He is already alienating the rest of the world, and especially Europe, from the US. What do you think happens to America if German or Chinese becomes the international language of trade, or if the Euro or Renminbi becomes the standard currency for international trade?
In my view, Mr. Trump — and continued GOP support for Mr. Trump — threatens the existential reality of the United States as we know it. I suggest that we are watching the political structures that have held the nation together until now be intentionally and consciously dismantled.
I see little likelihood that very much will change in 2018. I think it really comes down to an immediate acid test — will TODAY’s Republicans find the courage to do the right thing and remove this dangerously incompetent thug from the presidency.
I think you are both right. Tom is correct that Trump is already worse than Bush and has the potential to undermine this country’s global standing and domestic institutions on a much wider scale. China just announced it is building a Marshall Plan for the developing world and our America First agenda will really lead to a Chinese Century. Domestically we are seeing a constitutional crisis that would’ve provoked mass bipartisan outrage in any other administration in my lifetime get a shrug from the party controlling Congress and it’s outlets in the media. Not to mention it’s voters.
Jim is absolutely correct that our priority has to be retaking Congress. I don’t see how we get a fair and honest investigation of Trump’s ties to Russia without a Democratic Congress. I do not see how we get a Democratic Congress without running strongly against the health care bill and Trumps economic betrayal of his voter base. That’s my two cents in this discussion. I would love to be proven wrong. That a smoking gun is around the corner even Ryan and McConnell won’t vote to ignore. The investigation has to continue.
Disagree in the most emphatic terms that going to war in Iraq was worse than the treason Trump has come close to committing.
Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War)
Updated estimates from the Iraq Body Count Project report an estimated 173,766 – 194,058 civilian deaths from 2003-2017. For troops in the U.S.-led multinational coalition, the death toll is carefully tracked and updated daily, and the names and photographs of those killed in action as well as in accidents have been published widely. A total of 4,491 U.S. service members were killed in Iraq between 2003 and 2014.[3]
I’m not counting bodies on this one. I am talking about things much more fundamental, constitutional, and even existential.
I don’t know how to answer that. I don’t see what’s more fundamental, constitutional, and even existential than 180,000 to 200,000 needless deaths.
But to your point, it’s not about direct comparison. If Trump just slipped — a distinct possibility — I don’t know how potential impeachers would read it, but I think it’s better than starting a war.
My main point is: they don’t care. They will never care unless he starts costing them seats.
GWB got the AUMF from Congress and did what Presidents sometimes do as Commander in Chief. Disagreeing on policies pursued by a POTUS is not grounds for impeachment. I’ve been baffled as to why you give Trump so much benefit of the doubt, especially when there is so little doubt to begin with.
In JimC’s defense, I think strong doubts can be cast on whether Congress was given fair information to make that vote or manipulated into doing so by cooked intelligence. Former Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX) was strongly convinced Cheney directly lied to him about Iraqs nuclear capacity-and obviously our last two unsuccessful nominees made similar arguments on our side of the aisle.
An investigation into whether the intelligence was altered to make Iraq appear more threatening would’ve been the least Speaker Pelosi could’ve done-and now we will never know if it would’ve led to impeachment. But if we had definitive proof the President lied to Congress to get us into an elective war that would certainly be a gross abuse of power sufficient enough to trigger proceedings.
To clarify, I don’t give Trump any benefit of the doubt. He is at best confused, at worst a traitor. But which is more likely?
My main message on this is that we need to step lightly (and I say we in the broadest sense — the country). Impeachment, if we go there, is no small thing.
He’s a criminal (money-laundering), and he colluded with Russia on the election. He’s also an incredibly ignorant, unintelligent narcissist whose fortune has prevented him from paying the price for his serial malfeasance as a businessman and a politician.
My title was, “Halfway Through the Beginning of the End of Trump.” I was trying avoid suggesting anything was right “around the corner.”
I do think resignation is possible — but not likely. He is many things, but he is also proud. He might get fed up, but he’ll try to stick it out.
Dads two for three in predicting trump would win nod, win WH, and resign within a year.
This is not the beginning of the end, but it is indeed the end of the beginning
Trump is now indictable for obstruction of justice. (Comey firing, Trump pleading for him to drop the Flynn investigation). There’s more than enough for a jury trial. This also qualifies him for the “high crimes and misdemeanors” impeachment charge. As predicted, once Trump alienated the FBI, the leaks would start to really damage him.
Out of 44 presidents, two have been impeached, one of who resigned. It took two years for Nixon to finally resign, and yes, his supporters, many of whom are alive today, stopped supporting him. These things take time. Public opinion accumulates. For those of us with a lot of knowledge and a developed frame of reference, it doesn’t take much time for us to reach an opinion. For most people, who don’t focus on politics as much, it takes more time. What’s changing things is the 24-hour news cycle and the proliferation of news outlets. Things are coming out a lot faster.
The Cook Report gives the chance of the Dems taking over the House at 50%. That’s today. That’s scaring the hell out of Republicans. The ship is starting to sink, and we know how rats act.
Perhaps the bottom is falling out-I was surprised Chaffeetz got Ryan’s consent to read the Comey memos into the CR. And even Mitch is starting to quietly buckle. I still wouldn’t bet on heroism from this bunch-no Baker or Cohen among them.
I’m betting on rats fleeing a sinking ship.
We are living in a looking-glass world.
A GOP President:
1. Is revealing crucial secrets to Russia, and from Russia to Iran
2. The revelations betray our relationship to Israel — our strongest ally in the region, and an ally for whom Russia is the arch-enemy
3. Is doing everything in his power to obstruct an investigation into what appears to be a widespread pattern of illegal contact between his administration and Russia
4. Hosted the specific Russian individuals identified by these investigations in the Oval Office
5. Allowed Russian news organizations to photograph the Oval Office meeting while blocking US media
Today’s GOP politicians perform increasingly complicated political gymnastics as they attempt to defend the indefensible.
Even I, as cynical as I am in my old age, am astonished by the depth of the moral depravity of these Corroborators. This is a President playing footsies with Russia while literally betraying Israel!
If a Democratic president had done this, the entire federal government would be completely focused on removing that President from office. There would be special prosecutors, joint committees, subpoenas, investigations, prime-time hearings — the full power of Congress — a relentless fusillade directed at the Democrat until he or she stepped down or was impeached.
Instead, we see one toady after another desperately defending the traitor and incompetent thug who currently occupies the Oval Office.
Listening to the radio today and hearing Republicans defend Trump’s actions because of his unfamiliarity with laws, government, and protocol. In other words, Trump’s intent is not to break the law, he just does not know what the laws are, so they are trying to give him a pass. .
The Rats from the Sinking Ship
Rep. Walter Jones (R-N.C.) co-sponsored legislation for an independent commission.
Republican Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) has signed onto the legislation. Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) also said reports that President Trump pressed ousted FBI Director James Comey to end an investigation would merit impeachment if true, becoming the first Republican lawmaker to broach the idea.
John McCain has endorsed the idea.
Seems like Comey memo *may* have been the catalyst needed to push some in the GOP over the edge. And I give Amash and Jones a ton of props as conservatives who genuinely and consistently believe in limited government and a checked executive.
I’m impressed you’ve heard of them! I never had. There are a lot of conservatives–people I would vehemently disagree with on domestic and probably foreign policy–who don’t support Trump and care about the nation. I don’t know what direction things will go, but Trump will be toast. There’s chatter now that the EVDC has sent out U.S. Marshals to get Trump associates and assets. I’ve been focused on Russia, but I”m strongly believe that Trump is a criminal (money launderer, tax evasion) who really couldn’t survive people poking around in his business dealings.
Amash-Conyers nearly passed the Congress and would’ve severely limited NSA megadata collection. He’s also been pretty vocal about enforcing war powers and checking executive overreach. He’s also against the drug war.
Jones was an Iraq War opponent and also is pretty good on civil liberties and voting rights. Both beat back multiple well funded primary challengers running to their right on defense issues.
If only we had a Republican Party full of genuine Goldwater conservatives it would be a lot easier to get things done in Washington. Both are in solid red districts so I’d be happy to vote for them.
TV Networks Can’t Find Any GOPsters to Defen Trump
https://thinkprogress.org/republicans-silent-trump-62edbcd78b8f
I apologize for the off-topic comment.
Re: the new system– is there any way to get rid of the need to click “Read More” on every damn comment?
Will check that. But hey, look at the formatting bar!
Hm, fixed, I think?
I think so. Maybe you can bump the “New System” thread once in awhile to cover this stuff. Is there a way to see the source of thumbs-ups and thumbs-downs?
There will be.
Surprised I didn’t see this yet on this thread, but former FBI Director Robert Mueller has been named special prosecutor for Trump-Russia.