Today’s New York Times spells out the facts that demonstrates the lies being promoted here by a handful of our participants.
To wit:
– Blacks have lost ground in college admissions in comparison to 35 years ago
– Unemployment rates for blacks are twice those for whites — overall, 7.4 percent for blacks compared to 3.8 percent for whites
– Unemployment rates for college-educated blacks 4.2 percent, compared to 2.5 percent for whites
– “The wage gap between blacks and whites is larger now than it was in 1979 or 2000, and has grown the most for college graduates”
Racism, especially racism directed at blacks, is pervasive, and is worse now than it was when today’s 35 year olds were born. Whites (especially racist whites and the Nazis they would have us ignore) are well-off compared to their black counterparts, yet scream louder. We are not only NOT color-blind, we are MORE racist even as we propose to end programs that attempt to address it. Apparently “supporting working class people” only counts if those working class people are white.
Meanwhile, on a related topic, Paul Krugman today chooses the same word I chose a year ago to describe those who enable our fascists — “Collaborators”:
Let’s call things by their proper names here. Arpaio is, of course, a white supremacist. But he’s more than that. There’s a word for political regimes that round up members of minority groups and send them to concentration camps, while rejecting the rule of law: What Arpaio brought to Maricopa, and what the president of the United States has just endorsed, was fascism, American style.
…
What makes it possible for someone like Trump to attain power and hold it is the acquiescence of people, both voters and politicians, who aren’t white supremacists, who sort-of kind-of believe in the rule of law, but are willing to go along with racists and lawbreakers if it seems to serve their interests.
…
As I said, there’s a word for people who round up members of ethnic minorities and send them to concentration camps, or praise such actions. There’s also a word for people who, out of cowardice or self-interest, go along with such abuses: collaborators. How many such collaborators will there be? I’m afraid we’ll soon find out.
At least one of us, who self-identifies as an Armenian, apparently approves of the pardon of Mr. Arpaio. I guess genocide and racism is OK if some other group is targeted. I think “Collaborators” is exactly the right word to describe this group. I’m honored that Mr. Krugman joins me.
The America I love has no tolerance for racism OR fascism. I disheartened that our military has become a bastion against these twin evils.
Some tell us we should ignore the racism and fascism that rises around us. I think that, to paraphrase Martin Niemoller, “First they came for the blacks. Then they came for the immigrants.”
I am not and will not be a collaborator.
Down with Fascism and their Fascist collaborators !
” America is waking up, as Germany once did, to the awareness that 1/3 of your people would kill another 1/3, while 1/3 watched.” Werner Twertzog
I think you completely misread JTM’s post. He was saying focus less on symbols and more on substance and nothing to indicate that he did not see racism as a problem. I attended a town hall with Sen. Warren the other night and she pointed out that back when the government did more to help people generally (ie pre-1980, but post the peak of the Civil Rights Movement), the racial gaps were also significantly narrower.
Here’s what he writes:
Which part of this did I misread?
The WORLD’s media — especially noticed in Germany and Israel — is filled with images of a white mob marching with swastikas and torches.
This is NOT something we let go “for now”. In fact, we’ve been letting this go for far too long already.
Whatever it is we did pre-1980, today — while we are killing affirmative action programs — the racial gap is wide and widening. This, too, is not something we let go “for now”.
And I think his point is we risk abandoning the real work that needs to be done for both racial and economic justice if all we do is bellyache over statues and flags. Regarding your last sentence specifically the point is we can reverse the trend of the widening gap if we get back to what we were once good at doing in the first place. I suppose it’s possible I was the one who misread you, but it sounded like you were accusing JTM of defending the racist mob on the merits, which I’m sure he was not.
One reason I cited today’s piece by Mr. Krugman is today’s call by JTM that we ignore all this.
I hear JTM telling us to ignore the deplorables who carry swastikas and torches. I think that when we do that, we are collaborating with them.
We can walk and chew gum at he same time. A fascist is a fascist. Now is not the time for silence. Bread and butter yes. AND civilization yes. Wake up.
You’re afraid of your own shadow.
Btw I’m white; my father was a building custodian; my mother is an immigrant with a seventh grade education who cleaned houses for the wealthy.
I don’t think anyone here should call anyone else here racist. It isn’t helpful, and in this case I don’t think it’s accurate either.
When I see racist comments, I characterize them as such. I see a white man telling us to ignore mobs of Nazi’s carrying torches and swastikas in the south — and their supporters driving cars through crowds at high speeds, killing people.
I’m not going to ignore that, nor will keep silent.
” The great stumbling block toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the KKK, but the white moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to ‘justice’.
Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King
Trump pardoned a convicted criminal who was a vicious racial profiler.
Except he didn’t say ignore the violent mobs. He said don’t get worked up over statues and street names, and yes, there is a huge difference. I also wish you’d be a bit careful about throwing around the word collaborator. At least to me that is a historically loaded term that conjures images of Vichy France which actively and affirmatively worked with the Nazis (i. e. collaborated) to turn over their own country to the Third Reich. There is a decided liberal bubble on this issues. I saw a poll that said 62% of Americans are OK with the statues staying as is. The late election taught me that more Americans than I care to admit are a bit more tolerant of such attitudes than I would like, but do you really want to call 62% collaborators? I also think JTM was speaking primarily of the institutional party which should support, but maybe not spearhead, the anti-hate demonstrations.
Regarding “collaborator”, take it up with Mr. Krugman. He thinks it’s appropriate, you don’t. In this case, I agree with him.
I think JTM’s words speak loudly and clearly, and I think I’ve accurately characterized them.
I quoted the words upthread. Here they are again for your convenience:
The local community DID the right thing. They chose, overwhelmingly, to remove the statue and rename the park. They were invaded by an army of out-of-state Nazis and white supremacists.
This IS our fight, Christopher, if we care about racism. Your hyper-sensitivity about Godwin’s law is blinding you to what is happening here and now.
There are plenty of people, including Dem activists, who can and should join the counter-demonstrations. I for one am absolutely thrilled by the turnout in Boston AND news I have heard that it caused several other hate rallies to be cancelled. JTM is expressing faith that right (not to be confused with The Right) will ultimately prevail and suggesting the role of the institutional party should be to focus on issues with more direct impact.
Thanks Christopher. As you may know, I am a working class guy and I spend my days surrounded by working class people. I make it a point to not talk politics at work, for the most part, unless I know someone is “on my side”.
I do spend a lot of time observing and listening, especially to people who are not the sort to spend their days on Blue Mass Group or get excited that Morning Joe is on since they left the TV set on last night after TRMS.
These people are more apt to talk about last night’s game, the weather, or the new washing machine they just bought. They don’t talk politics much, but they do sometimes. Many of them voted for Trump. Not all, just more than one might think. Yeah, some of them are racists and the rest of the basket of deplorables, but that is a very small percentage. Most are just working stiffs, like me.
I watch their reaction to the Confederate statues down south and while some are sympathetic and supportive, some wonder why we’re “taking down history”.
My POINT here is that if we, as Democrats in the Northeast and Massachusetts in particular make a big to do about this, we will alienate many of these voters. These monuments are not here. We did not erect them and we are not responsible for removing them. If we make the statement (that some on BMG are making) that anyone who does not have extreme outrage over these Confederate is an enabler of Nazis……well, we will just further alienate working class voters away from the Democratic Party.
Hmm. Conrad Laraviere is a Springfield cop who acknowledges that he wrote a facebook post celebrating the terrorist who drove his car into a crowd and killed Heather Heyer. Springfield as in Springfield MASSACHUSETTS.
It doesn’t sound like very many of those “working class people” you surround yourself with are black or Hispanic. In fact, it sounds as though the people you are so afraid of alienating are white men.
I think that there are LOTS of working class men and women who admire a strong and principled no-tolerance policy when it comes to Nazis and white supremacists.
That’s what we’re talking about here, John. Nazis. White supremacists. An army of Nazis and white supremacists, organized by Nazis and white supremacists, who converged on Charlottesville VA because they objected to an action taken by an overwhelming majority of Charlottesville residents. An army of people that Spiro Agnew liked to call “Outside agitators”.
I get that you want “Democrats in the Northeast and Massachusetts” to ignore this. I get that the only demographic that you care about is white working class men like you.
The Democratic Party that I’ve been a part of for six decades should not and will not follow your advice. My Democratic Party rejected your approach nearly 50 years ago when we ejected the Southern racists after the 1968 convention debacle.
Any Massachusetts voter who is “alienated” by a zero-tolerance policy towards Nazis, white supremacists, and racism has no place in the Democratic party.
Not taking the bait Tom, not taking the bait.
@not taking the bait: No doubt, I’m not surprised.
Still, the point remains that Massachusetts is much more diverse than the group of “working class people” that you hang out with. The toxins being spread throughout our land are happening right here in MA (that’s why I mentioned Mr. Laraviere). We have significant black and minority populations all over the state.
When you write “these monuments are not here. We did not erect them and we are not responsible for removing them”, you effectively give a raised middle finger to those black and minority voters.
The fact that you and your buddies are alienated by rejecting these toxins means only that you and your buddies are alienated by rejecting them.
No more, and no less.
Nothing that JTM has ever said about the working class has suggested that he believes the solutions he proposes ought to only apply to whites. Can we PLEASE leave history alone, stop judging those who lived in the 19th century against either the moral standards of the 21st or the most egregious destruction of human rights in the 20th, and focus on actual fairness in our policies and actions now and going forward?
@Christopher: Once more we see the same thing. Of course he doesn’t say that the solutions he proposes ought to only apply to whites. What he does instead is:
– Talk ONLY about issues that are important to whites like him
– Oppose or demand that we ignore issues that matter to non-whites
– Lie and misrepresent the words of those who disagree with these
There are blacks living in Springfield RIGHT NOW who know that Mr. Laraviere is still on the beat. That’s a here-and-now issue that you apparently want us to ignore.
I won’t.
Your last paragraph is in fact completely contrary to my actual views. Having a racist cop on the beat IS a real issue with direct impact on the city’s black population, which cannot be tolerated. I don’t know what I’ve said to make you think that I think we ought to ignore that. I don’t think JTM has suggested ignoring racist cops either.
If you agree that having a racist cop on the beat is a real issue with direct impact on the city’s black population, then why do you defend JTM’s commentary that says we should ignore such things?
Read his comments on the thread in question — he is interested ONLY in whites. He talks ONLY to whites.
His stance towards the situation in Springfield with Mr. Laraviere right here is that he is “not taking the bait”.
Again, how explicit does racism have to be before you admit that it exists?
Because he never said to ignore the racist cop from what I read. I think it was the rest of that comment he was trying to avoid taking the bait from.
@Nothing JTM has ever said: Which part of the following is hard for you to understand (emphasis mine):
How explicit does the message have to be before you agree that it’s racist?
He is describing a demographic, as I believe you have too, in a way that is accurate. I don’t think he is defending the racial discrepancy, just acknowledging it. My guess is we already have much of the non-white working class.
I don’t hear anyone calling anyone racist. Are you hearing things, perhaps?
Actually Terry the issue here is reading. Let me help you.
And the link contains a link to a diary. The reference could not be clearer.
You can be glib about it if you want, but “racist” is not a term to be used lightly.
Dear JimC:
Thank you for the help with my reading. Thank you for your technical assistance.
I’ll use the word when it applies.
Now, back to reality:
“Trump pardoned Arpaio 3 days ago. Only three GOP Congressmen have spoken out against it: Flake, McCain and Amash. Silence is complicity.”
– @4evernevertrump
(Ryan bravely issued a statement through s spokesperson.)
Well, I feel compelled to note that neither of you are reading very closely and you’re accusation that he was experiencing auditory hallucinations wasn’t helpful…. because he wasn’t.
JimC wrote, “:I don’t think anyone here should call anyone else here racist.” specifically calling out SomervilleTom who linked to a diary by JohnTMay (It appears, s’toms initial response in that diary was flagged so he started an entire new diary). S’tom was not calling jtm a racist and it’s inaccurate, on the part of JimC to say he was…. but because he didn’t read closely JimC came to that conclusion. But it is equally inaccurate for you to pretend JimC was just making stuff up, because you didn’t read closely and accused him of ‘hearing things.’
S’tom was, however, saying that jtm efforts to hurry us along to another subject and to elide the demonstrated racism on the right, has the effect of bolstering their racism… and can be seen as collaboration. I can’t disagree. I don’t think jtm is deliberate in his collaborations with racists, but s’tom has a point about silence and speech.
90% of the kerfuffles and contretemps on this site are as a result of people reading past each other. S’tom is one of the more careful writers here and takes great pains NOT to be misunderstood… and still he is, constantly… Some are even less careful writers, but what does that matter, if there are precious few careful readers here?
Jim, which part of this do you disagree with?
Do you argue that racism directed at blacks is not pervasive? Do you argue that it is not worse now than it was 35 years ago (in spite of the data provided in the thread-starter)? Do you dispute that whites are well-off compared to their black counterparts? Do you argue that the white who authored today’s diary telling us to ignore the Nazis screams louder than most of us here?
So perhaps it is this parenthetical that you object to:
Now tell me — suppose we omit the word “racist”. Try this on:
Is that better or worse? I think it’s even more insulting without the qualification. So I think you either want us to
a: Ignore that it’s white people telling us to ignore the Nazis
b: Ignore that they’re telling us to ignore the Nazis
In my view it MATTERS that:
1. The author really DID demand that we ignore the Nazis this morning
2. The author is white and complains most loudly about the injustices he claims have been done to and against whites (actually working class white men like himself).
This author objected to the Massachusetts law that helps lower the gender-based wage gap. He objects LOUDLY to every proposal to make education and training available to working class men and women. He opposes unions and organized labor. And today he tells us to ignore Nazis marching with swastikas and torches.
See, I don’t think I’m making this characterization “lightly”. I stand by my characterization of his commentary, and specifically my characterization of his call for us to ignore the Nazis marching in the streets.
Would you be happier if I called him an “appeaser”?
OK fine. Blog on.
I’m violating one of my own rules here, in trying to tell other people (you) how to blog. I’ll just say this: we now have a public, searchable debate going about whether a BMG regular is a racist. I think everyone here should be given as large a benefit of the doubt as possible. As I read the post, he’s talking about political effects of the discussion, and I think his point is fair. I’ll leave it at that. Last word is yours if you want it. Peace.
“Do you argue that the white who authored today’s diary telling us to ignore the Nazis screams louder than most of us here?”
I do in fact dispute this point. I have now thrice read JTM’s diary and have yet to find a reference to the Nazi mobs, just the statues flags and street names. Is there really no way you can bring yourself to not conflate the names and statues with the absolute worst specimens of their defenders?
@Christopher: Fine. I think he’s blowing a dog-whistle. You don’t hear it. I do.
I heard our president falsely conflate Nazis and those who oppose them. That same president just pardoned a life-long racist, and demonstrated his own contempt for our courts in doing so.
I think THAT is what we’re talking about. Some of us don’t want to hear the dog-whistle. So be it.
It’s there, though. Whether admitted or not.
I heard it loud and clear from Trump, but not from JTM.
Somerville Tom: I stand with you one hundred percent. Your post is eloquent, elegant, and absolutely on the money.
Looks like the silent racists are getting very uncomfortable.
Good job.
As long as we’re fighting racism, what does everyone think about renaming Yawkey Way? I propose that they change the name to Larry Whiteside Way, to commemorate the man who broke the color line in the Boston Globe sport section. That happened in 1973, fourteen years after the Red Sox integrated.
Of course, renaming Yawkey Way is a pretty hollow gesture as long as the Red Sox refuseto be fully accountable for the rapes of black children committed in the Red Sox locker rooms.
I have no problem with renaming Yawkey Way. I share your contempt for the owners of the Boston Red Sox (both past and present).
So if that’s the hill you choose to die on, I say “go for it” and sincerely wish you success.
Still trying to come to grips with the fact that there are 6,996 Nazi collaborators in Franklin Massachusetts. Wonder where they meet and how this has not been noticed by the news?
Even in Somerville, there are over four thousand Nazi collaborators. Wow. This is tough news to wake up to today.
For that matter, Massachusetts is home to 1,090,893 Nazi collaborators and/or white supremacists, and yet it has yet to make the headlines.
They are a sneaky bunch, for sure, quite clandestine. Maybe someone ought to contact the Globe or Herald and ask why they are silent on this? Then again, maybe the editors of the Globe and Herald are Nazi collaborators!?
Really? This is the best you’ve got?
I hope that a lot of them are reconsidering their support for Trump now that he has so obviously abandoned the dog whistle in favor of a regular whistle.
More like a bullhorn than a whistle, IMHO.