The evidence is clear. Dr. Hill’s testimony was clear and compelling.
The question of whether or not Ukraine meddled in the 2016 elections is not a matter of anybody’s opinion — they did not. The question of whether or not the “Ukraine meddling myth” is Russian propaganda is similarly not a matter of opinion — it IS a Russian myth. As Mr. Schiff observed, the minority members repeated the phrase “Russia hoax” every day of testimony, yet claimed they had not denied Russian involvement.
These men and women lie repeatedly day in and day out. They lie about virtually everything, including what they did or did not say a few minutes previously. Today’s GOP is literally and knowingly carrying out Vladimir Putin’s agenda in Ukraine and in the US.
The fact that we are apparently powerless to stop these lies from controlling the outcome of this case is a matter of grave concern.
I again disagree with the apparent strategy of Ms. Pelosi.
I do not think we should be talking about a quick trial. I do not think we should be talking a limited impeachment resolution. I do not think we should be ducking or ignoring flagrant contempt of Congress.
I think we should be fighting with ounce of political energy we have each and every step of the way. I think the Congress should impose stiff penalties — $50,000 per day sounds like a nice number — for each and every day each and every administration official refuses to hand over material or appear before the house. Mr. Bolton should be quaking in his boots rather than holding out to protect his lucrative book deal
The plain facts of a Russian takeover of the White House and Senate are in full view. It appears to me that we remain unable or unwilling to do anything beyond cluck-cluck.
It appears to me that we are showing the same spine that Barack Obama showed about single-payer and the public option in 2008 — NONE whatsoever. I think this cowardice will have the same result.
We are watching America become a Russian state.
Christophersays
Your diagnosis is good, but I think your prognosis is paranoid. We aren’t going to be come a Russian state any more than we were going to during the Cold War.
SomervilleTomsays
I was alive and aware during the cold war. I remember the Cuban missile crisis.
Nothing like this has ever happened before. Our President, his staff, and most of his cabinet are behaving as they would if they were Russian assets. The GOP majority in the Senate and minority in the House is loudly and enthusiastically supporting the treasonous, delusional, and completely debunked lies and propaganda of Vladimir Putin.
Our President has aligned our foreign policy with that of Russia and in direct opposition to our own national security. America has betrayed the Kurds. We stopped our joint exercises with South Korea. We defend a Saudi monarch that killed and dismembered a Saudi journalist living in America and reporting for the Washington Post. We are currently advancing the Russian agenda in Ukraine. Our President and his GOP Collaborators are loudly repeating false and discredited Russian propaganda as if it were true.
Our constitutional processes have so far been unable to stop or slow this onslaught. There is precious little evidence that Mr. Trump will be removed from office.
The Ukraine extortion plot was explicitly set in motion literally the day after the Mueller report “cleared” the President.
What do you think will happen if Mr. Trump is impeached and then cleared by the Senate?
The DoJ under William Barr is already prosecuting the people who initiated the investigations that led to the Mueller report. The GOP minority is already doing all in their power to discover and reveal the identity of the whistleblower. How long after Mr. Trump is cleared by his GOP Collaborators in the Senate before the same DoJ will initiate criminal prosecutions against the witnesses who told the truth to the impeachment committee?
What do you think happened to Sergei and Yulia Skripal, and why? What happened to Alexander Litvinenko? Why do you think those things won’t happen here?
I’m not interested in your diagnosis of my state of mind. If you have a different scenario to offer, please do so.
How do you think these criminals are going to be removed from power?
Christophersays
I am not ready to bet that Trump will be removed. The votes aren’t there. We still have an election next year that is looking good for us. Right now the smart money is on Trump being President when he wakes up on 1/20/21, but not when he goes to bed that night. We survived the 1860s; we can survive this. We are an incredibly resilient country. There are other countries where what you fear would have happened already. The House is very methodically exposing the criminal enterprise for all to see. As for the DoJ they will need actual evidence and compliant juries, was well as referrals from Congress in cases of alleged perjury before the committees. This too shall pass – REALLY!
fredrichlaricciasays
” Putin wants you to believe Ukraine attacked our election. So do congressmen who believe dinasours and humans walked the earth together, climate change is fake, and there’s nothing wrong with their president asking Ukraine to attack our election.” Walter Shaub
fredrichlaricciasays
” That’s not anti – corruption, that is corruption.” Adam Schiff
scott12masssays
I was alive and aware during the Cold War. I remember the Cuban Missile crisis.
If a world war had broken out at that time Ukrainian soldiers would have stood next to the Russians and been shooting AT us.
We need to pull back, assess our own long term interests and let the EU take the lead in straightening out their own backyard.
Or do you think we should run in every time someone yells “We want democracy” Like right now are you willing to send weapons to the Hong Kong students ?
Christophersays
I for one think we SHOULD be a lot better at actively supporting democracies and aspiring democracies. I’m not sure I would give weapons to students in HK, but if this turns into Tiannamen 2.0 as has been speculated maybe this time there will be consequences for China.
SomervilleTomsays
@Ukrainian soldiers would have stood next to the Russians and been shooting AT us:
Are you KIDDING?
How far back do you want to take this travesty? We were at war with Germany and Italy in WWII. China was invaded by Japan in 1937, before Hitler’s invasion of Poland. The USSR and China were each our allies in WWII. My late father carried physical and emotional wounds inflicted by the Japanese in the Pacific theater to his grave.
My father was never able to accept the Japanese as friends, trading partners, or as military allies. At least he had his scars to offer as evidence. Do you have such scars about the Ukraine?
Ukraine was invaded by Russia before WWII. Ukraine initially welcomed the Wehrmacht as liberators from the “Soviet invaders”. The US welcomed Ukraine into the UN to balance the influence of the USSR, and Ukraine was a member of the UN security council from 1948-1949 and again from 1984-1985.
Ukraine was a possession of the former Soviet Union. Ukraine declared its independence from the USSR in 1991. The president of the Ukraine joined his counterparts from Belarus and Russia to formally dissolve the USSR in December of 1991.
I remind you that we DEMANDED that the former Axis powers not rebuild their military in order to prevent a recurrence of the Third Reich (and its Japanese counterpart). We have always dominated NATO for the same reason. Are you aware of the very long history of armed conflict in Europe?
The post WWII era is the longest period of peace and economic growth for at least western Europe in the last few millennia.
For more than seventy five years, the world’s currency has been the US dollar. The language of international trade has been American English. The dominant values that even the worst dictators have at least done lip-service to are those of the US Constitution. Americans have enjoyed affordable and safe travel to most of the world for business and pleasure during that extended period.
You would apparently reverse ALL of that, while endangering the peace and security of the entire world.
Perhaps you want military powerhouses in Germany, in Japan, and elsewhere. I do not.
fredrichlaricciasays
” Germany must never again be allowed to destroy the peace of the world.” FDR, Churchill, Stalin at the end of WW II
scott12masssays
You brought up the Cuban missile crisis, somewhat closer in time than WW2. Just thought I’d remind you that if things had gone differently it could have been a Ukrainian nuclear missile which destroyed NY.
So is Germany a NATO ally which we can count on or is their military for parades? And do we want to be the world’s policeman. as we’ve been for 75 years. Vietnam, Balkans, Iraq, Lebanon, Somalia etc, etc
What about Hong Kong? Or the next big decision when China asserts itself and wants Taiwan back? Should we help?
SomervilleTomsays
I most certainly did bring up the Cuban missile crisis.
It was Russian missiles that were on their way to Cuba, not Ukrainian. If we had not been resolute in our stance, today’s world might have been very different. JFK did NOT stand next to Nikita Krushchev in Moscow and tell the world that the entire US defense establishment was wrong about the arriving missiles because Mr. Krushchev told him so. NO US Senate delegations of either party spent Independence day doing photo-ops with Mr. Krushchev in Moscow.
Ukraine destroyed its ICBMs, unlike Russia and the US.
I frankly can’t believe I’m having this exchange. Have you bought the Putin Koolade about Ukraine as well?
scott12masssays
If the Cuban Missile crisis had escalated to WW 3, the Ukraine would have fought alongside the Russians, Yes? No?
SomervilleTomsays
If the Cuban missile crisis had escalated to WW3, no armies would have fought against anybody. The uncontrolled nuclear exchange would have literally killed everybody who might fight. It sounds as though you don’t comprehend what “escalated to WW3” meant in 1963,
It’s irrelevant in any case. It is now 56 years after that episode. It was only 20 years before that episode that were fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with Russia and Ukraine against Germany.
Your example is irrelevant to anything happening today in addition to being preposterous.
fredrichlaricciasays
Yes or no, scott12mass. Do you believe Russia interfered in our 2016 election?
scott12masssays
Sure they did. They helped Trump, but also helped Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein. They didn’t love Trump, they hated Hillary more.
There were no Russians pulling levers in voting booths though. If Hillary were running against Donald today the results would be the same.
We use the National Endowment for Democracy Act passed by the United States Congress when we want to promote our interests in other countries elections.
Christophersays
Stein was never going to be President and Bernie didn’t welcome it.. Trump asked for help on national television and continues to kiss Putin’s ring (and maybe something else). Why are you defending Russia here?
scott12masssays
I’m not defending Russia, they’re doing what they think is best for their country. Every country does it. I didn’t vote for Donald. Almost everyday I drive by a pop-up tent selling Trump merchandise and there are people there everyday. The economy is booming in Fla.
I read on here because I like to hear all sides of a story. Has the US interfered in elections elsewhere, hell we created coups. The Dems are auditioning every politician that ever won an election for them, and some new ones. Deval couldn’t get three people in a room at a Black college, Biden is confronted on immigration and tells a person “then vote for Trump”, Bernie honeymooned in Russia..
I’m not going to keep intruding anymore in the liberal bubble here. I’ll check back in after the next election. My hope is Yang comes to the Libertarian party and pulls a huge upset. Both corrupt parties which have run things for years are pulled away from the troughs and civil discourse returns to politics.
Christophersays
I don’t see anyone here claiming the USA is innocent with regards to other countries’ elections, though we shouldn’t be doing that IMO. Trump is still a Dangerous Unqualified Misogynistic Bigot regardless of how well the economy is doing (a premise I’m not sure I accept).
SomervilleTomsays
@sure they did:
Do you have a point?
scott12masssays
Fred asked a specific question I answered it.
fredrichlaricciasays
” We must live in the truth.” Vaclav Havel
seascrapersays
These long hysterical replies tell me that scott12mass has uncovered the fatal flaw.
SomervilleTomsays
@Hysterical:
Along with the NSC and virtually every professional agency in the world that has access to the relevant data and the knowledge to understand what that data means.
fredrichlaricciasays
What’s the difference between a garbanzo bean and a chickpea?
Or else you might read other opinions about the politico piece, such as offered by the Washington Post or Media Matters.
The politico piece is currently the darling of the right-wing Trump defenders desperately seeking something — anything — that might soften the crystal-clear reality and compelling evidence that Mr. Trump, his co-conspirators, and his defenders are advancing Russian propaganda originating with Mr. Putin.
Are you seriously suggesting that the right wing is correct? Really?
terrymcgintysays
Your judgment is that a single Politico article that is an excellent rendition of a literal piece of Russian intelligence agency false flag propaganda – as attested to under oath by Fiona Hill, a Trump appointee and undisputed authority on Ukraine – is as valid as the agreed upon judgment of 17 United States intelligence agencies.
Congratulations, you share the same bizarre lack of judgment as possessed by Louisiana’s Sen. John Kennedy. In his case, he is obviously shilling for President Banana, the head of his cult, since Kennedy undoubtedly knows better. What is your excuse?
terrymcgintysays
Oh, and by the way, Senator Kennedy R-(LA) said that the Financial Times of London had also given credence to this Russian intelligence agency false flag propaganda, yet the North American editor of that newspaper said today that this was not true. I wonder why you do not mention this?
fredrichlaricciasays
Edward Luce, Washington Commentator of the Financial Times, called out the Russian / Trump / Kennedy lie on MSNBC Morning Joe today.
fredrichlaricciasays
Ah, Bob, Fascist Fox Fair and Balanced does not mean giving the same weight to a lie as you do to the truth.
The evidence is clear. Dr. Hill’s testimony was clear and compelling.
The question of whether or not Ukraine meddled in the 2016 elections is not a matter of anybody’s opinion — they did not. The question of whether or not the “Ukraine meddling myth” is Russian propaganda is similarly not a matter of opinion — it IS a Russian myth. As Mr. Schiff observed, the minority members repeated the phrase “Russia hoax” every day of testimony, yet claimed they had not denied Russian involvement.
These men and women lie repeatedly day in and day out. They lie about virtually everything, including what they did or did not say a few minutes previously. Today’s GOP is literally and knowingly carrying out Vladimir Putin’s agenda in Ukraine and in the US.
The fact that we are apparently powerless to stop these lies from controlling the outcome of this case is a matter of grave concern.
I again disagree with the apparent strategy of Ms. Pelosi.
I do not think we should be talking about a quick trial. I do not think we should be talking a limited impeachment resolution. I do not think we should be ducking or ignoring flagrant contempt of Congress.
I think we should be fighting with ounce of political energy we have each and every step of the way. I think the Congress should impose stiff penalties — $50,000 per day sounds like a nice number — for each and every day each and every administration official refuses to hand over material or appear before the house. Mr. Bolton should be quaking in his boots rather than holding out to protect his lucrative book deal
The plain facts of a Russian takeover of the White House and Senate are in full view. It appears to me that we remain unable or unwilling to do anything beyond cluck-cluck.
It appears to me that we are showing the same spine that Barack Obama showed about single-payer and the public option in 2008 — NONE whatsoever. I think this cowardice will have the same result.
We are watching America become a Russian state.
Your diagnosis is good, but I think your prognosis is paranoid. We aren’t going to be come a Russian state any more than we were going to during the Cold War.
I was alive and aware during the cold war. I remember the Cuban missile crisis.
Nothing like this has ever happened before. Our President, his staff, and most of his cabinet are behaving as they would if they were Russian assets. The GOP majority in the Senate and minority in the House is loudly and enthusiastically supporting the treasonous, delusional, and completely debunked lies and propaganda of Vladimir Putin.
Our President has aligned our foreign policy with that of Russia and in direct opposition to our own national security. America has betrayed the Kurds. We stopped our joint exercises with South Korea. We defend a Saudi monarch that killed and dismembered a Saudi journalist living in America and reporting for the Washington Post. We are currently advancing the Russian agenda in Ukraine. Our President and his GOP Collaborators are loudly repeating false and discredited Russian propaganda as if it were true.
Our constitutional processes have so far been unable to stop or slow this onslaught. There is precious little evidence that Mr. Trump will be removed from office.
The Ukraine extortion plot was explicitly set in motion literally the day after the Mueller report “cleared” the President.
What do you think will happen if Mr. Trump is impeached and then cleared by the Senate?
The DoJ under William Barr is already prosecuting the people who initiated the investigations that led to the Mueller report. The GOP minority is already doing all in their power to discover and reveal the identity of the whistleblower. How long after Mr. Trump is cleared by his GOP Collaborators in the Senate before the same DoJ will initiate criminal prosecutions against the witnesses who told the truth to the impeachment committee?
What do you think happened to Sergei and Yulia Skripal, and why? What happened to Alexander Litvinenko? Why do you think those things won’t happen here?
I’m not interested in your diagnosis of my state of mind. If you have a different scenario to offer, please do so.
How do you think these criminals are going to be removed from power?
I am not ready to bet that Trump will be removed. The votes aren’t there. We still have an election next year that is looking good for us. Right now the smart money is on Trump being President when he wakes up on 1/20/21, but not when he goes to bed that night. We survived the 1860s; we can survive this. We are an incredibly resilient country. There are other countries where what you fear would have happened already. The House is very methodically exposing the criminal enterprise for all to see. As for the DoJ they will need actual evidence and compliant juries, was well as referrals from Congress in cases of alleged perjury before the committees. This too shall pass – REALLY!
” Putin wants you to believe Ukraine attacked our election. So do congressmen who believe dinasours and humans walked the earth together, climate change is fake, and there’s nothing wrong with their president asking Ukraine to attack our election.” Walter Shaub
” That’s not anti – corruption, that is corruption.” Adam Schiff
I was alive and aware during the Cold War. I remember the Cuban Missile crisis.
If a world war had broken out at that time Ukrainian soldiers would have stood next to the Russians and been shooting AT us.
We need to pull back, assess our own long term interests and let the EU take the lead in straightening out their own backyard.
Or do you think we should run in every time someone yells “We want democracy” Like right now are you willing to send weapons to the Hong Kong students ?
I for one think we SHOULD be a lot better at actively supporting democracies and aspiring democracies. I’m not sure I would give weapons to students in HK, but if this turns into Tiannamen 2.0 as has been speculated maybe this time there will be consequences for China.
@Ukrainian soldiers would have stood next to the Russians and been shooting AT us:
Are you KIDDING?
How far back do you want to take this travesty? We were at war with Germany and Italy in WWII. China was invaded by Japan in 1937, before Hitler’s invasion of Poland. The USSR and China were each our allies in WWII. My late father carried physical and emotional wounds inflicted by the Japanese in the Pacific theater to his grave.
My father was never able to accept the Japanese as friends, trading partners, or as military allies. At least he had his scars to offer as evidence. Do you have such scars about the Ukraine?
Ukraine was invaded by Russia before WWII. Ukraine initially welcomed the Wehrmacht as liberators from the “Soviet invaders”. The US welcomed Ukraine into the UN to balance the influence of the USSR, and Ukraine was a member of the UN security council from 1948-1949 and again from 1984-1985.
Ukraine was a possession of the former Soviet Union. Ukraine declared its independence from the USSR in 1991. The president of the Ukraine joined his counterparts from Belarus and Russia to formally dissolve the USSR in December of 1991.
I remind you that we DEMANDED that the former Axis powers not rebuild their military in order to prevent a recurrence of the Third Reich (and its Japanese counterpart). We have always dominated NATO for the same reason. Are you aware of the very long history of armed conflict in Europe?
The post WWII era is the longest period of peace and economic growth for at least western Europe in the last few millennia.
For more than seventy five years, the world’s currency has been the US dollar. The language of international trade has been American English. The dominant values that even the worst dictators have at least done lip-service to are those of the US Constitution. Americans have enjoyed affordable and safe travel to most of the world for business and pleasure during that extended period.
You would apparently reverse ALL of that, while endangering the peace and security of the entire world.
Perhaps you want military powerhouses in Germany, in Japan, and elsewhere. I do not.
” Germany must never again be allowed to destroy the peace of the world.” FDR, Churchill, Stalin at the end of WW II
You brought up the Cuban missile crisis, somewhat closer in time than WW2. Just thought I’d remind you that if things had gone differently it could have been a Ukrainian nuclear missile which destroyed NY.
So is Germany a NATO ally which we can count on or is their military for parades? And do we want to be the world’s policeman. as we’ve been for 75 years. Vietnam, Balkans, Iraq, Lebanon, Somalia etc, etc
What about Hong Kong? Or the next big decision when China asserts itself and wants Taiwan back? Should we help?
I most certainly did bring up the Cuban missile crisis.
It was Russian missiles that were on their way to Cuba, not Ukrainian. If we had not been resolute in our stance, today’s world might have been very different. JFK did NOT stand next to Nikita Krushchev in Moscow and tell the world that the entire US defense establishment was wrong about the arriving missiles because Mr. Krushchev told him so. NO US Senate delegations of either party spent Independence day doing photo-ops with Mr. Krushchev in Moscow.
Ukraine destroyed its ICBMs, unlike Russia and the US.
I frankly can’t believe I’m having this exchange. Have you bought the Putin Koolade about Ukraine as well?
If the Cuban Missile crisis had escalated to WW 3, the Ukraine would have fought alongside the Russians, Yes? No?
If the Cuban missile crisis had escalated to WW3, no armies would have fought against anybody. The uncontrolled nuclear exchange would have literally killed everybody who might fight. It sounds as though you don’t comprehend what “escalated to WW3” meant in 1963,
It’s irrelevant in any case. It is now 56 years after that episode. It was only 20 years before that episode that were fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with Russia and Ukraine against Germany.
Your example is irrelevant to anything happening today in addition to being preposterous.
Yes or no, scott12mass. Do you believe Russia interfered in our 2016 election?
Sure they did. They helped Trump, but also helped Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein. They didn’t love Trump, they hated Hillary more.
There were no Russians pulling levers in voting booths though. If Hillary were running against Donald today the results would be the same.
We use the National Endowment for Democracy Act passed by the United States Congress when we want to promote our interests in other countries elections.
Stein was never going to be President and Bernie didn’t welcome it.. Trump asked for help on national television and continues to kiss Putin’s ring (and maybe something else). Why are you defending Russia here?
I’m not defending Russia, they’re doing what they think is best for their country. Every country does it. I didn’t vote for Donald. Almost everyday I drive by a pop-up tent selling Trump merchandise and there are people there everyday. The economy is booming in Fla.
I read on here because I like to hear all sides of a story. Has the US interfered in elections elsewhere, hell we created coups. The Dems are auditioning every politician that ever won an election for them, and some new ones. Deval couldn’t get three people in a room at a Black college, Biden is confronted on immigration and tells a person “then vote for Trump”, Bernie honeymooned in Russia..
I’m not going to keep intruding anymore in the liberal bubble here. I’ll check back in after the next election. My hope is Yang comes to the Libertarian party and pulls a huge upset. Both corrupt parties which have run things for years are pulled away from the troughs and civil discourse returns to politics.
I don’t see anyone here claiming the USA is innocent with regards to other countries’ elections, though we shouldn’t be doing that IMO. Trump is still a Dangerous Unqualified Misogynistic Bigot regardless of how well the economy is doing (a premise I’m not sure I accept).
@sure they did:
Do you have a point?
Fred asked a specific question I answered it.
” We must live in the truth.” Vaclav Havel
These long hysterical replies tell me that scott12mass has uncovered the fatal flaw.
@Hysterical:
Along with the NSC and virtually every professional agency in the world that has access to the relevant data and the knowledge to understand what that data means.
What’s the difference between a garbanzo bean and a chickpea?
Trump’s never had a garbanzo bean on his face. 🙂
I know. I’m bad.
Ah, Terry, you should try to get Politico to retract this https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446, and admit that Politico is an arm of Russian propaganda. Or else maybe you could trying taking a deep breath before you tweet.
Or else you might read other opinions about the politico piece, such as offered by the Washington Post or Media Matters.
The politico piece is currently the darling of the right-wing Trump defenders desperately seeking something — anything — that might soften the crystal-clear reality and compelling evidence that Mr. Trump, his co-conspirators, and his defenders are advancing Russian propaganda originating with Mr. Putin.
Are you seriously suggesting that the right wing is correct? Really?
Your judgment is that a single Politico article that is an excellent rendition of a literal piece of Russian intelligence agency false flag propaganda – as attested to under oath by Fiona Hill, a Trump appointee and undisputed authority on Ukraine – is as valid as the agreed upon judgment of 17 United States intelligence agencies.
Congratulations, you share the same bizarre lack of judgment as possessed by Louisiana’s Sen. John Kennedy. In his case, he is obviously shilling for President Banana, the head of his cult, since Kennedy undoubtedly knows better. What is your excuse?
Oh, and by the way, Senator Kennedy R-(LA) said that the Financial Times of London had also given credence to this Russian intelligence agency false flag propaganda, yet the North American editor of that newspaper said today that this was not true. I wonder why you do not mention this?
Edward Luce, Washington Commentator of the Financial Times, called out the Russian / Trump / Kennedy lie on MSNBC Morning Joe today.
Ah, Bob, Fascist Fox Fair and Balanced does not mean giving the same weight to a lie as you do to the truth.