I fear that you greatly overstate the importance of a Congressional subpoena.
It appears to me that the penalty for simply ignoring these is, well, non-existent. Mark Meadows was referred to DoJ in mid-December. I have seen no evidence of anything happening since then. Steve Bannon was indicted on Nov 12, 2022 — and his trial is set to begin on July 18 2022. The trial will take at least two weeks, bring us to early August. Assuming Mr. Bannon is convicted, he will surely appeal.
Even if Mark Meadows is eventually indicted, his trial won’t happen before the mid-terms. The individuals targeted today will not possibly be compelled to testify before this congress.
I do not believe that the committee will get any testimony from any of these targets. I don’t believe that any of these people will suffer any consequences from ignoring these subpoenas.
I think this is just more theatrics.
So far as I can tell, “the long arm of the law” closes in ONLY on weak and powerless misfits who dress up in funny clothes and vandalize the Capitol.
Let me know when there is any evidence of a federal grand jury subpoena issuing from the DoJ.
Until then, this is just politics.
fredrichlaricciasays
Oh yea of little faith, Tom. Only one has to tell the truth and the whole coup plot, rotten house of cards will come tumbling down.
Former Wisconsin Republican Party Chairman Andrew Hitt — one of the fourteen ‘fake electors’ subpoenaed for leading groups of ‘alternate delegates’ for Trump — said he will cooperate with the January 6 committee.
Christophersays
Glad to see someone else pushing back on Tom’s Debbie Downer act regarding the fallout from 1/6.
SomervilleTomsays
I see that dozens of congressional subpoenas have been issued since the first impeachment investigation. A handful of those subjects have eventually complied. Most of those were ignored and ignored with NO consequences whatsoever.
When a cop orders a fleeing suspect to stop, it is not a violation of due process to cuff and arrest that suspect ON THE SCENE.
I note that Donald McGahn received a congressional subpoena in April of 2019. His testimony was belatedly taking in June of 2021 — more than TWO YEARS later.
The Donald Trump administration successfully stonewalled Congress and illegally obstructed that investigation. Even a cursory reading of the Mueller report shows that the same Donald Trump administration illegally obstructed the Mueller report.
The criminal behavior of the Donald Trump administration prior to the November 2020 election has never been and almost certainly will not be investigated. The American system of justice failed to enforce the rule of law as it pertains to that administration. That failure bears a striking resemblance to the failure of the American system of justice to enforce the rule of law against the George W. Bush administration for its multiple and well-documented crimes against humanity. That was, in turn, very consistent with the ultimate failure of the American system of justice to enforce the rule of law against the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H. Bush for their criminal sale of arms to an officially-designated terrorist nation.
I am not receptive to lectures about the rule of law when it comes to actually prosecuting wealthy and powerful officials who show open contempt for the rule of law without consequences.
Today’s GOP shows that there is one rule of law for the wealthy and powerful and another for the rest of us.
An ongoing criminal conspiracy to overthrow representative democracy in America is underway.
It is not a “Debby Downer act” to insist and demand that this criminal conspiracy be stopped before it succeeds.
An armed insurrection IS underway. It must be put down.
Christophersays
Do you really think the committee has not been putting in long hours gathering evidence for the past several months? They will show us their hand when they are good and ready.
SomervilleTomsays
I’ve never doubted that the committee is putting in long hours gathering evidence.
The question is who that evidence is intended to convince.
It appears to me that the committee intends to “show their hand” in order to win re-election in 2022.
In my view, this has the earmarks of a political — rather legal — effort.
Christophersays
They may be trying to convince/help DOJ, but you do understand it is not Congress’s job to prosecute, right? Besides, the insurrection WAS a political act and it is absolutely politically appropriate to gather all the facts for the official record to convince the public what went wrong. You are the one saying we are not collectively paying enough attention. It is precisely this committee’s job to address that.
SomervilleTomsays
Was the attack on Fort Sumpter or Pearl Harbor also a political act? This is an organized and funded conspiracy to overthrow the duly elected government of the United States. They conducted a dress rehearsal on 6-Jan-2021. They have been aggressively adjusting their strategy to address the reasons why that first attack failed.
The fact that you characterize this conspiracy as “political” perhaps explains your stubborn refusal to take it seriously.
How many Democrats have to be jailed on manufactured charges before you appreciate the gravity of the situation?
The 1/6 committee is fine if there is a parallel DoJ investigation. It is utterly meaningless if public hearings are its only product.
The “official record” should include all manner of things that the 1/6 committee does not have access to.
There are surely recordings of every conversation in the Oval Office (do you really think that stopped with Watergate 50 years ago?). There are surely recordings and transcripts of every communication of anyone in the White House. I strongly suspect there are recordings and transcripts of every communication involving every elected official.
There is a reason why the NSA has the largest data and computing repositories in the world.
I believe that very powerful forces are at play. I need to be convinced that preserving the rule of law and representative democracy in America is at or near the top of the priorities that direct those very powerful forces.
Christophersays
Pearl Harbor and Fort Sumter were acts of war and we responded accordingly. Are you suggesting a military invasion of Mar-a-lago? The 1/6 committee has access to all the records it wants to have access to. I’m sure both they and the DOJ know a lot more than we do. How many Dems have been jailed on manufactured charges? I believe none. Even Hillary “lock her up” Clinton remains a free woman who has never actually been arrested for anything. Trump is losing big time his fight over executive privilege so if there are recordings I’m sure they will be part of the case.
SomervilleTomsays
Anyone who watched the events unfold from November of 2020 to January 6, 2021 already knows the truth.
The only house of cards that I see tumbling down is the rule of law in America — especially regarding congressional oversight authority.
Christophersays
This is how it works. You go for the “weak and powerless” first, then work your way up. Surely you don’t want justice to be too swift for due process! If you see no evidence I continue to suggest a combination of not paying attention and unrealistic expectations.
fredrichlaricciasays
“We believe the individuals we have subpoenaed today have information about how these so-called alternate delegates met and who was behind that scheme.” Rep, Bennie Thompson (D-MS) Chairman, Jan. 6th Select Committee
SomervilleTomsays
I join Mr. Thompson in that belief and always have.
That’s not the point. The point is that these subpoenas do little or nothing to force these individuals to reveal that information.
Any person who ignores a congressional subpoena should be JAILED and FINED for contempt within days — not years — of that act.
SomervilleTomsays
The most common scenario, by FAR, is that the DoJ goes for the weak and powerless first and then stops.
I invite you to offer a timeline for when you think the much needed criminal investigations and indictments will occur, and then compare them to the upcoming election schedule.
What do you think will happen to the 1/6 committee after the GOP regains a majority in 2022?
Since the earliest indictments of GOP leaders from the DoJ will be in 2023 — if at all — what do you think will happen to the prosecution of those indictments when partisan GOP electors ensure that Donald Trump is appointed President in January of 2025?
Newt Gingrich has already said that he expects leading Congressional Democrats to be jailed after the GOP takes over in 2023. What stands in the way of that?
I suggest that you are in willful denial of what is and is not happening.
Christophersays
Pay no attention to Newt Gingrich. He’s just engaging in ginning up the outrage to get attention. I think that if the November election results in a Republican House the committee will transmit all remaining evidence to the DOJ which will take it from there. Garland has repeatedly said he is committed to following wherever this may lead, so unless you’re calling him a liar…
I am not at all ready to take bets on who will win the presidency in 2024 and I really wish you would stop assuming that it is already over.
SomervilleTomsays
“Garland has repeatedly said he is committed to following wherever this may lead, so unless you’re calling him a liar”
I’m saying that I expect him to announce — after an extended delay — that he does not see sufficient evidence to bring indictments.
I’m reminded of a certain Attorney General — Tom Reilly — who insisted that he was unable to indict Bernard Law.
Was Mr. Reilly lying? No. Should he have indicted Bernard Law? Absolutely. Bernard Law should have spent the remainder of his life in jail. Instead he enjoyed a comfortable retirement in Rome.
The stakes involving Merrick Garland, Donald Trump, and the GOP are much higher. I understand that the threshold must therefore be higher.
The fact remains that if it isn’t possible to criminally prosecute Donald Trump, his family, and today’s GOP — and I think that’s where all this will land — then the undeniable conclusion is that certain people are, in fact, above the law.
Bernard Law was one of those people in Massachusetts. It appears to me that we are learning that this privileged class extends well beyond Roman Catholic Cardinals.
Christophersays
I don’t want to derail the thread, but as morally reprehensible as his actions were I am not at all convinced Cardinal Law committed any crimes. I don’t think mandatory reporting and background check laws were as strong then as they are now. TBH, it may well be the case that the public figures involved did manage to stay just this side of the legal line. Trump himself is probably more likely to face the music in NY or GA. There will have to be a pretty big smoking gun tape a la Watergate to nail him for anything related to 1/6.
SomervilleTomsays
I wonder how many Massachusetts Democrats have to be jailed before you realize how disconnected you are from what is actually happening.
Christophersays
None so far, so my confidence stands.
fredrichlaricciasays
“Always with the negative waves, Moriarity.”
fredrichlaricciasays
“WOOF WOOF” Oddball, aka Donald Sutherland in Kelly’s Heroes
fredrichlaricciasays
The 1/6 Committee is on a FACT FINDING MISSION !
fredrichlaricciasays
DOJ announced this week they are investigating “potential CRIMINAL violations.”
SomervilleTomsays
Tell me about it when indictments are issued against ANY of the multiple high-ranking GOP officials participating in this conspiracy.
I’m not holding my breath.
I suggest that Donald Trump will be appointed President — regardless of the outcome of the 2022 or 2024 elections — before any indictment might be prosecuted. I suspect that at least some inside the DoJ already understand this reality.
I further suggest that the most likely outcome for anybody who indicts a GOP official in the next year will be jail after Mr. Trump retakes power — permanently — in 2024.
fredrichlaricciasays
So , we should just throw in the towel, accept the death of democracy and prepare to live under fascism or leave the country ?
HELL NO! I’m not going down without a fight!
SomervilleTomsays
Of course not.
I think we should be doing all in our power to act NOW to:
Force the DoJ to investigate and prosecute the crimes committed by Donald J. Trump and his family
Force the DoJ to aggressively pursue today’s GOP under the already-existing RICO statutes.
Force the House to use its implicit contempt powers to compel compliance with its subpoenas
Doing staged on-camera interviews with friendly media personalities is not the same as fighting.
I want us to be ACTUALLY fighting. I’ve had enough photo-ops with MSNBC and CNN hosts.
Christophersays
What legal methods do you suggest to “force” the things you list above? You are certainly free to contact your member of Congress though IIRC yours is already one of the most aggressively anti-Trump and anti-Trumpism.
SomervilleTomsays
Ayanna Pressley is a poster-child for do-nothing media activism.
Mike Capuano might have have had an impact. Ayanna Pressley will not.
SomervilleTomsays
What legal methods do you suggest to “force” the things you list above?
The House and Senate each have the ability to hold hearings (perhaps joint hearings) where key figures from the DoJ are invited to testify about matters of concern for the House and Senate.
Both the House and Senate have permanent oversight committees and such hearings are not uncommon.
My third item — using the implied power of the House to force compliance with subpoenas issued by the House — is surely something that can be done by majority vote of House members.
Christophersays
So now you do want congressional hearings?
SomervilleTomsays
Come on, Christopher — are you saying that you are unable to differentiate hearings of the 1/6 committee from hearings of the House and Senate Oversight Committee?
The latter has some teeth while the former does not. The latter exists to conduct oversight over the former — including funding.
I want action, not theater.
Are you really unable to tell the difference?
Christophersays
Pretty sure all committees created by Congress have the same legal authority to investigate and conduct oversight within their purview.
Christophersays
Those people would have to be tried and found guilty by a jury too. If as many people as it would take to pull off these conspiracies were in the tank for Trump, then he will win the right way in 2024 anyway – no conspiracies necessary.
SomervilleTomsays
“If as many people as it would take to pull off these conspiracies …”
Are you now saying that you don’t believe that the GOP is conspiring to overthrow the government?
It didn’t take many people to carry out the trial run of the insurrection.
It doesn’t take tens of millions of people in order for someone to be convicted of a crime.
How will we even KNOW whether the GOP candidate in 2024 won or lost “the right way” when the votes of millions or tens of millions are being suppressed by the state-level changes already orchestrated by the conspiracy that you seem to claim doesn’t exist.
The dozens of states where White Supremacist candidates are even now campaigning to seize control of state-level election apparatus is being reported every week. Do you also deny that THAT is happening?
Christophersays
The part I don’t automatically believe is that they are certain to be successful. Yes, there are people campaigning as you describe, but there are also plenty of candidates campaigning to resist that. My objection to your concerns is that you have already called the game with still plenty of time left to play. PLEASE have a little faith in the resiliency of the oldest modern democratic republic! You also were convinced Biden would never become President on account of shenanigans, but here we are.
SomervilleTomsays
You also were convinced Biden would never become President on account of shenanigans, but here we are
I don’t remember writing that. I remember writing that I was convinced that Donald Trump and the GOP would do everything in their power to prevent the peaceful transfer of power to Joe Biden.
Do you understand how perilously close the insurrection came to succeeding? Multiple reports suggest that the conspiracy failed ONLY because a handful — 3-5 — of people refused to be steamrolled.
Why do you think so many Democratic House members are choosing to step down at the end of this term?
Christophersays
Same reason members of a party predicted to be in the minority next time often step down. I’ve been re-reading old BMG posts and comments lately and yes, you seemed just as hysterical about the chances of Biden being allowed to take office then as you are now.
bob-gardnersays
It’s interesting (in a way) to watch Tom and Fred talk past each other while making the other person’s case. Tom makes a good argument that waiting for the forces of justice to arrest and jail everyone in the GOP camp who poses a threat to democracy cannot be successful. There simply isn’t time to do that effectively.
Fred, on the other hand, demonstrates the emptiness of endlessly patting yourself on the back, and makes Tom’s case that the threat has to be taken seriously.
SomervilleTomsays
I’m not suggesting that “everyone in the GOP camp who poses a threat do democracy” should be prosecuted.
I’m instead saying that:
Today’s GOP is a criminal organization under existing RICO statutes. It should therefore be illegal to give money to it.
The LEADERS of today’s GOP should be indicted, prosecuted, and convicted for the crimes that we already know they committed in full view of the entire world.
The indictment, prosecution, conviction, incarceration, and fining of something on the order of one to two dozen people is more than enough.
I’m talking about people like the following:
Donald J. Trump
Eric Trump
Ivanka Trump
Mark Meadows
Devin Nunes
Josh Hawley
Marjorie Taylor Greene
Paul Gosar
Ted Cruz
Marco Rubio
Mitch McConnell
Lindsay Graham
Christophersays
Toward the bottom of that list are plenty of vile people, but you prosecute for committing crimes, not for being vile.
SomervilleTomsays
We knew as long ago as 2018 that the four people on the bottom of the list were receiving tens of millions of dollars of dirty Russian money channeled from Russian organized crime through Dmitry Firtash, Igor Frumin, and Lev Parnas. We know that Rudy Giuliani desperately needed money and was being paid by Mr. Firtash. All that was reported by MSNBC, and all that was being investigated by not one but three different teams in DoJ.
We also know that William Barr shut all that down.
We knew, during the first impeachment hearings, that Devin Nunes was in touch with the subjects of the impeachment investigation. We know that because Adam Schiff revealed it during questioning on national television.
If those responsible for investigating and prosecuting crimes refuse to do so, then your comment serves only to rationalize inaction.
Christophersays
I recall the case of Guiliani and his Russian associates, but not connections to the elected officials you name. I can’t imagine I would have forgotten something that significant and I watch MSNBC fairly regularly.
Republican lawmakers unwittingly entangled in a campaign finance scandal have scrambled to get rid of contributions from two men at the center of the alleged wrongdoing, both of whom were back in court Wednesday.
Igor Fruman and and Lev Parnas pleaded not guilty to violating campaign finance laws when they appeared in federal court in New York for their arraignment. Fruman, Parnas and two other men were indicted earlier this month for “engaging in a scheme to funnel foreign money to candidates.” The indictment alleged the two men did so to “buy potential influence with the candidates, campaigns, and the candidates’ governments.”
Fruman and Parnas, both Soviet-born U.S. citizens, are also tied to President Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani. They reportedly assisted with Giuliani’s quest to have the Ukrainian officials investigate former Vice President Joe Biden’s son Hunter, who served on the board of a Ukrainian energy company. Trump’s own push for Ukraine to investigate Biden and the Democratic National Committee is at the center of the ongoing impeachment probe.
Christophersays
Like I say I’m familiar with Giuliani and his Russian friends, so yes, I remember the above. What I don’t know (and did not see references to in the indictment you linked below either) is where the elected officials come in. Did they knowingly accept or facilitate illegal amounts or illegal sources?
SomervilleTomsays
I invite you to read a copy of the indictment against Mr. Parnas and Mr. Frumin, brought by the SUNY.
I’m certainly not an expert on FL law relative to campaign contributions, but the article doesn’t make it clear that DeSantis is legally exposed.
SomervilleTomsays
Ah, I see. You’re making the “legal corruption” argument again.
Christophersays
Well, yes, you may feel the laws should be changed to make things illegal, and that’s a perfectly valid view to have, one I might even share. However, you suggesting prosecution which you can only do for something that is already illegal at the time it is being prosecuted.
SomervilleTomsays
I’m sure I recall seeing all the names I cited. It is tedious to find such material with Google after two or more years have passed.
I fear that you greatly overstate the importance of a Congressional subpoena.
It appears to me that the penalty for simply ignoring these is, well, non-existent. Mark Meadows was referred to DoJ in mid-December. I have seen no evidence of anything happening since then. Steve Bannon was indicted on Nov 12, 2022 — and his trial is set to begin on July 18 2022. The trial will take at least two weeks, bring us to early August. Assuming Mr. Bannon is convicted, he will surely appeal.
Even if Mark Meadows is eventually indicted, his trial won’t happen before the mid-terms. The individuals targeted today will not possibly be compelled to testify before this congress.
I do not believe that the committee will get any testimony from any of these targets. I don’t believe that any of these people will suffer any consequences from ignoring these subpoenas.
I think this is just more theatrics.
So far as I can tell, “the long arm of the law” closes in ONLY on weak and powerless misfits who dress up in funny clothes and vandalize the Capitol.
Let me know when there is any evidence of a federal grand jury subpoena issuing from the DoJ.
Until then, this is just politics.
Oh yea of little faith, Tom. Only one has to tell the truth and the whole coup plot, rotten house of cards will come tumbling down.
Former Wisconsin Republican Party Chairman Andrew Hitt — one of the fourteen ‘fake electors’ subpoenaed for leading groups of ‘alternate delegates’ for Trump — said he will cooperate with the January 6 committee.
Glad to see someone else pushing back on Tom’s Debbie Downer act regarding the fallout from 1/6.
I see that dozens of congressional subpoenas have been issued since the first impeachment investigation. A handful of those subjects have eventually complied. Most of those were ignored and ignored with NO consequences whatsoever.
When a cop orders a fleeing suspect to stop, it is not a violation of due process to cuff and arrest that suspect ON THE SCENE.
I note that Donald McGahn received a congressional subpoena in April of 2019. His testimony was belatedly taking in June of 2021 — more than TWO YEARS later.
The Donald Trump administration successfully stonewalled Congress and illegally obstructed that investigation. Even a cursory reading of the Mueller report shows that the same Donald Trump administration illegally obstructed the Mueller report.
The criminal behavior of the Donald Trump administration prior to the November 2020 election has never been and almost certainly will not be investigated. The American system of justice failed to enforce the rule of law as it pertains to that administration. That failure bears a striking resemblance to the failure of the American system of justice to enforce the rule of law against the George W. Bush administration for its multiple and well-documented crimes against humanity. That was, in turn, very consistent with the ultimate failure of the American system of justice to enforce the rule of law against the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H. Bush for their criminal sale of arms to an officially-designated terrorist nation.
I am not receptive to lectures about the rule of law when it comes to actually prosecuting wealthy and powerful officials who show open contempt for the rule of law without consequences.
Today’s GOP shows that there is one rule of law for the wealthy and powerful and another for the rest of us.
An ongoing criminal conspiracy to overthrow representative democracy in America is underway.
It is not a “Debby Downer act” to insist and demand that this criminal conspiracy be stopped before it succeeds.
An armed insurrection IS underway. It must be put down.
Do you really think the committee has not been putting in long hours gathering evidence for the past several months? They will show us their hand when they are good and ready.
I’ve never doubted that the committee is putting in long hours gathering evidence.
The question is who that evidence is intended to convince.
It appears to me that the committee intends to “show their hand” in order to win re-election in 2022.
In my view, this has the earmarks of a political — rather legal — effort.
They may be trying to convince/help DOJ, but you do understand it is not Congress’s job to prosecute, right? Besides, the insurrection WAS a political act and it is absolutely politically appropriate to gather all the facts for the official record to convince the public what went wrong. You are the one saying we are not collectively paying enough attention. It is precisely this committee’s job to address that.
Was the attack on Fort Sumpter or Pearl Harbor also a political act? This is an organized and funded conspiracy to overthrow the duly elected government of the United States. They conducted a dress rehearsal on 6-Jan-2021. They have been aggressively adjusting their strategy to address the reasons why that first attack failed.
The fact that you characterize this conspiracy as “political” perhaps explains your stubborn refusal to take it seriously.
How many Democrats have to be jailed on manufactured charges before you appreciate the gravity of the situation?
The 1/6 committee is fine if there is a parallel DoJ investigation. It is utterly meaningless if public hearings are its only product.
The “official record” should include all manner of things that the 1/6 committee does not have access to.
There are surely recordings of every conversation in the Oval Office (do you really think that stopped with Watergate 50 years ago?). There are surely recordings and transcripts of every communication of anyone in the White House. I strongly suspect there are recordings and transcripts of every communication involving every elected official.
There is a reason why the NSA has the largest data and computing repositories in the world.
I believe that very powerful forces are at play. I need to be convinced that preserving the rule of law and representative democracy in America is at or near the top of the priorities that direct those very powerful forces.
Pearl Harbor and Fort Sumter were acts of war and we responded accordingly. Are you suggesting a military invasion of Mar-a-lago? The 1/6 committee has access to all the records it wants to have access to. I’m sure both they and the DOJ know a lot more than we do. How many Dems have been jailed on manufactured charges? I believe none. Even Hillary “lock her up” Clinton remains a free woman who has never actually been arrested for anything. Trump is losing big time his fight over executive privilege so if there are recordings I’m sure they will be part of the case.
Anyone who watched the events unfold from November of 2020 to January 6, 2021 already knows the truth.
The only house of cards that I see tumbling down is the rule of law in America — especially regarding congressional oversight authority.
This is how it works. You go for the “weak and powerless” first, then work your way up. Surely you don’t want justice to be too swift for due process! If you see no evidence I continue to suggest a combination of not paying attention and unrealistic expectations.
“We believe the individuals we have subpoenaed today have information about how these so-called alternate delegates met and who was behind that scheme.” Rep, Bennie Thompson (D-MS) Chairman, Jan. 6th Select Committee
I join Mr. Thompson in that belief and always have.
That’s not the point. The point is that these subpoenas do little or nothing to force these individuals to reveal that information.
Any person who ignores a congressional subpoena should be JAILED and FINED for contempt within days — not years — of that act.
The most common scenario, by FAR, is that the DoJ goes for the weak and powerless first and then stops.
I invite you to offer a timeline for when you think the much needed criminal investigations and indictments will occur, and then compare them to the upcoming election schedule.
What do you think will happen to the 1/6 committee after the GOP regains a majority in 2022?
Since the earliest indictments of GOP leaders from the DoJ will be in 2023 — if at all — what do you think will happen to the prosecution of those indictments when partisan GOP electors ensure that Donald Trump is appointed President in January of 2025?
Newt Gingrich has already said that he expects leading Congressional Democrats to be jailed after the GOP takes over in 2023. What stands in the way of that?
I suggest that you are in willful denial of what is and is not happening.
Pay no attention to Newt Gingrich. He’s just engaging in ginning up the outrage to get attention. I think that if the November election results in a Republican House the committee will transmit all remaining evidence to the DOJ which will take it from there. Garland has repeatedly said he is committed to following wherever this may lead, so unless you’re calling him a liar…
I am not at all ready to take bets on who will win the presidency in 2024 and I really wish you would stop assuming that it is already over.
“Garland has repeatedly said he is committed to following wherever this may lead, so unless you’re calling him a liar”
I’m saying that I expect him to announce — after an extended delay — that he does not see sufficient evidence to bring indictments.
I’m reminded of a certain Attorney General — Tom Reilly — who insisted that he was unable to indict Bernard Law.
Was Mr. Reilly lying? No. Should he have indicted Bernard Law? Absolutely. Bernard Law should have spent the remainder of his life in jail. Instead he enjoyed a comfortable retirement in Rome.
The stakes involving Merrick Garland, Donald Trump, and the GOP are much higher. I understand that the threshold must therefore be higher.
The fact remains that if it isn’t possible to criminally prosecute Donald Trump, his family, and today’s GOP — and I think that’s where all this will land — then the undeniable conclusion is that certain people are, in fact, above the law.
Bernard Law was one of those people in Massachusetts. It appears to me that we are learning that this privileged class extends well beyond Roman Catholic Cardinals.
I don’t want to derail the thread, but as morally reprehensible as his actions were I am not at all convinced Cardinal Law committed any crimes. I don’t think mandatory reporting and background check laws were as strong then as they are now. TBH, it may well be the case that the public figures involved did manage to stay just this side of the legal line. Trump himself is probably more likely to face the music in NY or GA. There will have to be a pretty big smoking gun tape a la Watergate to nail him for anything related to 1/6.
I wonder how many Massachusetts Democrats have to be jailed before you realize how disconnected you are from what is actually happening.
None so far, so my confidence stands.
“Always with the negative waves, Moriarity.”
“WOOF WOOF” Oddball, aka Donald Sutherland in Kelly’s Heroes
The 1/6 Committee is on a FACT FINDING MISSION !
DOJ announced this week they are investigating “potential CRIMINAL violations.”
Tell me about it when indictments are issued against ANY of the multiple high-ranking GOP officials participating in this conspiracy.
I’m not holding my breath.
I suggest that Donald Trump will be appointed President — regardless of the outcome of the 2022 or 2024 elections — before any indictment might be prosecuted. I suspect that at least some inside the DoJ already understand this reality.
I further suggest that the most likely outcome for anybody who indicts a GOP official in the next year will be jail after Mr. Trump retakes power — permanently — in 2024.
So , we should just throw in the towel, accept the death of democracy and prepare to live under fascism or leave the country ?
HELL NO! I’m not going down without a fight!
Of course not.
I think we should be doing all in our power to act NOW to:
Doing staged on-camera interviews with friendly media personalities is not the same as fighting.
I want us to be ACTUALLY fighting. I’ve had enough photo-ops with MSNBC and CNN hosts.
What legal methods do you suggest to “force” the things you list above? You are certainly free to contact your member of Congress though IIRC yours is already one of the most aggressively anti-Trump and anti-Trumpism.
Ayanna Pressley is a poster-child for do-nothing media activism.
Mike Capuano might have have had an impact. Ayanna Pressley will not.
The House and Senate each have the ability to hold hearings (perhaps joint hearings) where key figures from the DoJ are invited to testify about matters of concern for the House and Senate.
Both the House and Senate have permanent oversight committees and such hearings are not uncommon.
My third item — using the implied power of the House to force compliance with subpoenas issued by the House — is surely something that can be done by majority vote of House members.
So now you do want congressional hearings?
Come on, Christopher — are you saying that you are unable to differentiate hearings of the 1/6 committee from hearings of the House and Senate Oversight Committee?
The latter has some teeth while the former does not. The latter exists to conduct oversight over the former — including funding.
I want action, not theater.
Are you really unable to tell the difference?
Pretty sure all committees created by Congress have the same legal authority to investigate and conduct oversight within their purview.
Those people would have to be tried and found guilty by a jury too. If as many people as it would take to pull off these conspiracies were in the tank for Trump, then he will win the right way in 2024 anyway – no conspiracies necessary.
“If as many people as it would take to pull off these conspiracies …”
Are you now saying that you don’t believe that the GOP is conspiring to overthrow the government?
It didn’t take many people to carry out the trial run of the insurrection.
It doesn’t take tens of millions of people in order for someone to be convicted of a crime.
How will we even KNOW whether the GOP candidate in 2024 won or lost “the right way” when the votes of millions or tens of millions are being suppressed by the state-level changes already orchestrated by the conspiracy that you seem to claim doesn’t exist.
The dozens of states where White Supremacist candidates are even now campaigning to seize control of state-level election apparatus is being reported every week. Do you also deny that THAT is happening?
The part I don’t automatically believe is that they are certain to be successful. Yes, there are people campaigning as you describe, but there are also plenty of candidates campaigning to resist that. My objection to your concerns is that you have already called the game with still plenty of time left to play. PLEASE have a little faith in the resiliency of the oldest modern democratic republic! You also were convinced Biden would never become President on account of shenanigans, but here we are.
I don’t remember writing that. I remember writing that I was convinced that Donald Trump and the GOP would do everything in their power to prevent the peaceful transfer of power to Joe Biden.
Do you understand how perilously close the insurrection came to succeeding? Multiple reports suggest that the conspiracy failed ONLY because a handful — 3-5 — of people refused to be steamrolled.
Why do you think so many Democratic House members are choosing to step down at the end of this term?
Same reason members of a party predicted to be in the minority next time often step down. I’ve been re-reading old BMG posts and comments lately and yes, you seemed just as hysterical about the chances of Biden being allowed to take office then as you are now.
It’s interesting (in a way) to watch Tom and Fred talk past each other while making the other person’s case. Tom makes a good argument that waiting for the forces of justice to arrest and jail everyone in the GOP camp who poses a threat to democracy cannot be successful. There simply isn’t time to do that effectively.
Fred, on the other hand, demonstrates the emptiness of endlessly patting yourself on the back, and makes Tom’s case that the threat has to be taken seriously.
I’m not suggesting that “everyone in the GOP camp who poses a threat do democracy” should be prosecuted.
I’m instead saying that:
The indictment, prosecution, conviction, incarceration, and fining of something on the order of one to two dozen people is more than enough.
I’m talking about people like the following:
Toward the bottom of that list are plenty of vile people, but you prosecute for committing crimes, not for being vile.
We knew as long ago as 2018 that the four people on the bottom of the list were receiving tens of millions of dollars of dirty Russian money channeled from Russian organized crime through Dmitry Firtash, Igor Frumin, and Lev Parnas. We know that Rudy Giuliani desperately needed money and was being paid by Mr. Firtash. All that was reported by MSNBC, and all that was being investigated by not one but three different teams in DoJ.
We also know that William Barr shut all that down.
We knew, during the first impeachment hearings, that Devin Nunes was in touch with the subjects of the impeachment investigation. We know that because Adam Schiff revealed it during questioning on national television.
If those responsible for investigating and prosecuting crimes refuse to do so, then your comment serves only to rationalize inaction.
I recall the case of Guiliani and his Russian associates, but not connections to the elected officials you name. I can’t imagine I would have forgotten something that significant and I watch MSNBC fairly regularly.
I haven’t found the MSNBC reporting yet.
I invite your attention to https://rollcall.com/2019/10/23/republicans-scramble-to-dispose-of-campaign-cash-from-giuliani-associates/ (emphasis mine).
Like I say I’m familiar with Giuliani and his Russian friends, so yes, I remember the above. What I don’t know (and did not see references to in the indictment you linked below either) is where the elected officials come in. Did they knowingly accept or facilitate illegal amounts or illegal sources?
I invite you to read a copy of the indictment against Mr. Parnas and Mr. Frumin, brought by the SUNY.
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/6466336/The-SDNY-Indictment-of-Lev-Parnas-Igor-Fruman.pdf
Here’s a piece describing a $50,000 “contribution” made to Ron DeSantis in Florida in 2019.
https://floridaphoenix.com/blog/lev-parnas-and-igor-fruman-apparently-fit-right-in-among-florida-republican-elite/
I’m certainly not an expert on FL law relative to campaign contributions, but the article doesn’t make it clear that DeSantis is legally exposed.
Ah, I see. You’re making the “legal corruption” argument again.
Well, yes, you may feel the laws should be changed to make things illegal, and that’s a perfectly valid view to have, one I might even share. However, you suggesting prosecution which you can only do for something that is already illegal at the time it is being prosecuted.
I’m sure I recall seeing all the names I cited. It is tedious to find such material with Google after two or more years have passed.