He undervalued his property to avoid paying taxes and overvalued it to get loans.
OH, oh. A judge just ordered the Dumpster and his two eldest to testify under oath in New York state’s civil investigation into his business practices . SCORE !!!!! The long arm of the law is catching up to the crook, at last, for falsifying his tax returns and financial statements.
The judge said : “The Attorney General has obtained copious evidence of possible financial fraud.”
I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell ya!
But Hillary’s emails !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please share widely!
As soft on crime Republicans have successfully gutted the I.R.S. and as tax evasion “strategies” are bragged about by financial planners, I suspect this will fall into the “well they all do it” category often used by Republicans to defend questionable acts by their political leaders.
My suggestion would be for Democrats to clean up their own house and then go after this issue.
Bothsiderism sophistry won’t work for the corrupt, Puke, hatriots this time.
“The illegal we do immediately, the unconstitutional takes a little longer.” Henry Kissinger
Leading by example is key. Are Democrats doing that?
Democrats lead by definition as they are the only functioning party left.
And so Democrats need to turn up the heat on corruption. Banning stock trades by members of congress and the family would be a step in the proper direction. Means testing the president’s pension and benefits would be another. Insisting that all workers at state and national conventions be paid $25 an hour would be yet another way Democrats could walk the walk and drop the talk, talk…
Instead of constantly nitpicking about us Democrats, John, you should preach to your Cristofascist, Magaloon, entitled whiners. You might start with this biblical quote : “First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” Romans 2:1
It takes a certain lack of self-awareness for Fred to denounce both-siders and then quote the bible verse which refutes him. And then to screw that up. The verse is not from Romans, but actually is Matthew 7.5.
No Fred, in democracies a party does not lead “by definition.”
In fairness, Romans 2:1 is:
It means the same, less artfully phrased.
“It means the same,”
Absolutely, but Fred is still on the side of hypocrisy.
Puke hypocrisy is the audacity to preach morality from a den of sin.
Those are all validly debatable proposals, but have nothing to do with the original diary. The point is Trump cheated and committed fraud, which is not what any of what you mention relates to.
Just curious, Bob. I assume you still think the Pukes are leading as a functional party?
The event in question is felony fraud, committed for decades, by Donald Trump, his family, and his inner circle.
That’s what this thread is about.
Senator Warren gets it.
Senator Elizabeth Warren now wants to ban all state lawmakers and elected officials from trading corporate stocks.
Great. So do I. So does Nancy Pelosi now. Nobody on this thread ever disputed that.
That’s got nothing to do with the felony fraud perpetrated by Donald Trump and his co-conspirators.
Perhaps you can find a quote from Ms. Warren where she asserts that Democrats should do nothing about the pervasive felony fraud of Donald Trump, his family, and his associates because Ms. Pelosi initially opposed the ban on stock trading.
Why stop there? Perhaps you join Bob in arguing that we should do nothing at all because “the Keating Five” and “the Vietnam war”.
Or better yet, find a quote from anyone on BMG who said this? …again, Tractor Supply has a sale on straw. Seems like you are going through it rather quickly, mate!
Ok. Let’s start with this:
Which issue was I referring to? Please note: Democrats can walk and chew gum at the same time, or should be able to.
The fact that some would excuse or even approve of poor behavior on the part of Democrats because “Republicans are even worse” is a hard campaign to sell to the independent voter. Yeah, “Vote for the Democrats, we’re less corrupt than the Republicans”….somehow does not work for me.
It was your VERY FIRST comment on this thread! In fact, it was THE FIRST comment on this thread.
Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what issue you were referring to. Since yours was the first comment, I made the rash assumption that it referred to the thread-starter.
What you now characterize as “walk and chew gum at the same time” most of us call a false conflation.
I remain puzzled as to why you defend, or in the least, demand we all turn a blind eye to the objectionable behaviors of some elected Democrats.
Yesterday:
Today:
Discussing the failings of Democrats on a diary about the failings of Democrats is perfectly reasonable. Even better is discussing how Democrats can improve — especially if that discussion is fact-based.
Discussing the failings of Democrats on a diary about historic and outrageous criminal behavior of Donald Trump and his criminal co-conspirators is a distraction and false conflation.
Your initial comment on this diary — the very first comment on this diary — argued that Democrats should “… clean up their own house and then go after this issue.”
A police department does not turn a blind eye to shoplifters because it aggressively apprehends, imprisons, and prosecutes heavily armed thugs who have already shot dozens and burned stores throughout a neighborhood.
Since all of us are able to walk and chew gum at the same time, it remains unclear why it seems to be so hard for you to either approve or at least not hijack commentary applauding the prosecution of felony fraud on the part of Donald Trump and his co-conspirators.
“Discussing the failings of Democrats on a diary about historic and outrageous criminal behavior of Donald Trump and his criminal co-conspirators is a distraction and false conflation.”
Sorry Tom, that train left the station when Fred did his original post.
Read the last line of what Fred posted again, this time with a little self-awareness.
I believe Dems are in fact leading by the example of not overvaluing their assets for loans, but undervaluing them for taxes.
What examples do you have of similar allegations against Democrats?
In December 2015, The Wall Street Journal reported that Hillary Clinton opposed the Magnitsky Act while serving as secretary of state. Her opposition coincided with Bill Clinton giving a speech in Moscow for Renaissance Capital, a Russian investment bank—for which he was paid $500,000. “Mr. Clinton also received a substantial payout in 2010 from Renaissance Capital, a Russian investment bank whose executives were at risk of being hurt by possible U.S. sanctions tied to a complex and controversial case of alleged corruption in Russia. Members of Congress wrote to Mrs. Clinton in 2010 seeking to deny visas to people who had been implicated by Russian accountant Sergei Magnitsky, who was jailed and died in prison after he uncovered evidence of a large tax-refund fraud. William Browder, a foreign investor in Russia who had hired Mr. Magnitsky, alleged that the accountant had turned up evidence that Renaissance officials, among others, participated in the fraud.”
??? Really???
You’re STILL talking about the Clintons?
Bless your heart. (If you’ve spend much time in the south you’ll understand that).
Well the Clintons are newer than the Keating 5. Just thought I’d mention a Democrat faux pas, from the perspective of a non Republican / non Democrat.
Besides wouldn’t a
Hillary / Trump re-match make for a great show?
( Fred mentioned Hillary in the thread starter)
That was a reference to Donald Trump and GOP hypocrisy. I think you know that.
The Seditionists and their bullhorn are striving mightily to turn attention back to the Clintons.
Perhaps you need to get away from Florida.
No.
That’s not at all the same. I need an example of a prominent Democrat defrauding records the way Trump has. This isn’t that.
“I need an example of a prominent Democrat defrauding records the way Trump has.”
Why? On what planet is election decided on who over valued or undervalued their business assets? I hope the authorities close in on Trump but it will have zero effect on either the mid-terms or the 2024 election.
People have known this stuff for years. David Cay Johnston had a list of 20 questions that should have sunk Trump in 2016. It didn’t.
And this latest development will change nobody’s mind.
On the other hand, there are real issues that Joe Biden has WHIFFED on, like the cancellation of the Child Tax Credit, and absurdly high drug prices. And not only Biden. Nancy Pelosi and (to his shame) Bill Keating can’t even be bothered to stay in the country but are off on a junket somewhere–a junket paid for by God knows who.
“Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue.” Rochefoucauld
Bob, we must, as Democrats, excuse the questionable behaviors of elected Democrats, or even accept it as unavoidable, a “cost pf doing business”, under the pretext that “Republicans are even worse!” It does make things difficult when we hear people say “Well, both parties do it” and all we can say is “Yes, but we don’t do it as much”.
Until you give me an example of a Dem engaging in this type of fraud, both parties do NOT do it!
The argument is that Dems need to get their own house in order on the fraud issue. You have other complaints about Dems, but they do not speak to leading by example on THIS issue.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to show with a comment like this.
We are talking about instance after instance of submitting sworn documents to a potential lender attesting that a specific piece of real estate is valued at one number — say $600M — while simultaneously submitting sworn documents to a municipal authority offering a wildly lower number — say $300M — for THE SAME property.
Are you willing to stipulate that not paying a credit card bill is a different crime from smashing a store window and looting the same merchandise?
We’re not talking about nuance, discretion, or anything remotely like that.
Please offer a cite of any Democratic public figures who have so brazenly committed felony fraud for decades and not been prosecuted.
You got me there, Tom. I can’t think of a Democrat that has even done anything dishonest, and I certainly don’t want nit pick with things like the Keating Five, the Vietnam war, or paying hush money to the assistant AG’s who covered up the drug testing scandal.
Truly, as Fred says, the democrats “lead by definition.” It hardly seems necessary to even have mid-term elections next year, because everybody understands this.
The Keating Five? Really?
I agree that the perpetrators of the drug testing scandal should be investigated and prosecuted.
If you’re still nursing grievances about the Vietnam war, why even pretend to be a Democrat today?
By all means we should do nothing about Donald Trump, the GOP, and their effort to dismantle representative democracy until all these Democratic wrongs are corrected.
How, pray tell, shall we mitigate the shame of the Vietnam war in order for you to agree that decades of pervasive felony fraud by an ex-president is appropriate to prosecute?
Since the Democrats are too sullied by these awful sins to play a role, who then should preserve representative democracy?
By all means, lets continue trashing participants of BMG and offering caustic and cynical attacks on Democrats at every opportunity.
I’m sure that’s going to help improve things.
A judge just ruled that “Dear Leader” and his two eldest must testify under oath in New York state’s civil investigation into his business practices. SCORE !!!!!
Base on his downvotes, Bob Gardner apparently feels that no action against Donald Trump and his co-conspirators is appropriate.
It seems that
the original posterJTM and Bob argue that nothing should be done to Mr. Trump or any other GOP criminal until every Democrat passes the purity test imposed by the OP.The original poster in this case is Fred, whom I suspect DOES want Trump held accountable for these actions. It sounds like you meant to refer to JTM regarding purity tests for Democrats.
My mistake, you’re absolutely correct.
Wow, nice spin. The reality is that taking action with Trump is made more difficult each time Democrats make one unforced error after another in the court of public opinion. Remember, the majority of voters are not Democrats, or Republicans. That is the audience we are playing to. They are the ones that see tarnish on both parties. They saw Bill Clinton’s behavior towards women. They heard Speaker Pelosi defend stock trades by congress. They see President Obama partying on the Vineyard during a pandemic at his multimillion dollar vacation home – when they hear me say as a Democrat that the 1% is hurting this nation.
Democrats are free to take any action they want with Trump and if a simple dog and pony show with NO results is what makes you happy, well, I disagree. Believe it or not, most people are not as focused on the details as you and Tom and I. Most people just read the headlines, flip through the photos, hear a catchy phrase on the radio, and these people are the difference between Democrats in office versus Democrats on the sidelines.
By all means, go after Trump with the full power and authority of the justice department. Enjoy the show. Enjoy the Mueller investigation and the two impeachments….and realize that Trump is still with us, still a threat, and still has a good chance of winning in 2024.
I see. So you think you’re doing a public service by spreading the lie that Ms. Pelosi opposing a ban on stock trading by members of Congress is indistinguishable from Donald Trump (or anyone else) committing felony fraud.
With “friends” like you, we Democrats don’t need enemies or Republicans.
Wow, the number of straw men being used against me recently is rather noticeable. Tractor Supply is selling 3.6 cubic feet of straw for $14.99. You may want to stop there to build your next argument. I think the closest one to you is 82 Turnpike Rd, Ipswich. That will require you to leave the bubble you are living in, maybe meet some independent voters.
Yeah, some bubble.
I guess I should be living someplace more diverse like Eastham, Chatham, Dennisport, or Hyannis.
Like “ordinary working class”, you now apparently use “independent voters” as a euphemism for Trumpists.
Let me clear: “Diverse” does not mean “Trumpist” or “Ordinary”.
If you think Black, Hispanic, Latino, or LGBTQ voters — here in Massachusetts or elsewhere — are currently supporting Donald Trump, then you’re deluding yourself.
35,392 Somerville votes went for Biden. 4,150 went for Trump. I’d call that a bubble.
I’d call that projection.
Call it whatever you like.
Somerville has a markedly more demographically diverse population than anywhere on Cape Cod. Somerville has a markedly more economically diverse population than anywhere on Cape Cod.
Somerville voters OVERWHELMINGLY chose Mr. Biden.
The economically and demographically diverse Somerville voters are all around me. I talk to them each time I put out my rubbish and clear my sidewalks. I’ve watched their children grow from toddlers to adults.
If you think Somerville is not representative, then try Lawrence, Lowell, Pittsfield, Worcester, Springfield, Fall River, or any other urban area you like.
You’re blowing smoke and bloviating — and you most certainly ARE using “independent” as a synonym for “Trumpist” — your own comment shows that.
New Democratic research warns party members that voters in swing districts think they are ‘preachy’, ‘judgmental’ caught up in ‘culture wars,’ Democrats need to demonstrate they fully understand and care about stressors in people’s lives… without stoking divisive cultural debates….
You seem to be arguing that drawing a hard line at felony fraud — committed on multiple assets across decades — is being “preachy, judgemental, [and] caught up in culture wars”.
Or perhaps you are arguing that pursing this felony fraud is “stoking divisive cultural debates”.
An actual quote from me on that would help jog my memory. I can’t recall ever defending Trump or his suspected felonies. Perhaps you have me confused with another?
Oh come on! I already quoted your VERY FIRST COMMENT on this entire diary.
I haven’t confused you with anybody. You’ve already responded to my quote.
For your convenience, here are your words again:
Perhaps you might consider walking back that comment — along with pretty much everything you’ve written in the comment on this diary.
Nope. No walking back. We need to, at every turn, demand better behavior from our elected officials, especially Democrats. You may want to look the other way, but not me. Oh, and this does not mean that we ignore the illegal acts of Republicans.
We need to stop scoring own-goals. I don’t mind high standards for our party. I do mind purity tests and demands for perfection. I do mind sounding MORE critical of our own than of the other side. I would much prefer we stick with the vast ideological and policy differences that exist between the two parties and focus on why our way of doing things is of greater benefit to the people.
That I agree and sympathize with, but it’s a very different argument than you have been making throughout this thread and different from discussions about committing fraud.
Then you have been misunderstanding my argument. I will try to be clearer in the future.
Please do. I’m just asking that you make one argument at a time. This thread is about Donald Trump committing fraud relative to the value of his assets. If you want to complain about bad Democratic messaging I suggest you start your own diary.
How much of an issue do you think tax fraud is to the typical voter? Yes, I support a full investigation, but if any Democrat thinks that this will be the offence that finally brings Trump down, they will be disappointed. Again.
I’m sure most people at the time never thought tax evasion would bring down another crime boss…Al Capone.
ANY felony conviction is a disqualification for the presidency.
So far as I’m concerned, ANYTHING that blocks Donald Trump from ever holding office again is HUGE win. If some group of “typical” voters is too apathetic — or worse — to care, then that says more about those voters than any actions and policies of elected Democrats past, present and future.
As others have observed, a discussion about Democratic Party strategies towards “ordinary” voters belongs on a different thread.
Donald Trump has committed felony fraud. Donald Trump may well be convicted of felony fraud. There is abundant and growing evidence that Donald Trump has disqualified himself (and his family) to ever again run for President.
THAT is what this thread is about.
Though to be clear, I’m actually not sure your first sentence above is legally accurate.
I misunderstood the comments of Lawrence Tribe and stand corrected.
“. There is abundant and growing evidence that Donald Trump has disqualified himself (and his family) to ever again run for President.
THAT is what this thread is about.”
Legally, there is nothing to stop a convicted felon from running for President, for better or worse. As fond as you are of sending other people off for documentation,Tom, I can’t imagine that you never bothered to check..
What’s more disturbing in your comment is this new habit of claiming to know “what this thread is about.” And then to act like the you have uncovered the ultimate crime of “hijacking the post.” Usually you pull this stunt when all your other arguments have fallen flat, i.e., all the time.
I was mistaken in my assertion about this specific felony. The prohibition against Mr. Trump running for federal office will result from his indictment on any of the many crimes committed by him and his co-conspirators in the attempted coup.
Lawrence Tribe made the argument on 31-Jan-2022 on MSNBC. His argument is summarized at DailyKos (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/1/31/2077897/-Laurence-Tribe-weighs-in-on-the-Weighty-Constitution-issues-Facing-the-DOJ).
Here is a cite, for clarity, of a relevant federal law — 18 U.S. Code § 2383 – Rebellion or insurrection — (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383) (emphasis mine):
Here is what Mr. Tribe said at the same time on twitter (https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1488136067249233921?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1488136067249233921%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com%2Fstory%2F2022%2F1%2F31%2F2077897%2F-Laurence-Tribe-weighs-in-on-the-Weighty-Constitution-issues-Facing-the-DOJ)
Meanwhile — regarding your last paragraph:
I plead guilty to the charge that I — as one of the few people still active in attempting to moderate this community — make attempts to discourage commentary that distracts from or hijacks a particular diary. The little blue “Admin” button next to my name indicates that.
I reject your last sentence. Somebody has to exert editorial control over the site.
Feel free to volunteer if you think you can do a better job.
Oh come on. Nothing you’ve posted on this thread has the slightest connection to your role as administrator.
My decision to leave all comments on this thread has everything to do with that role.
This is ultimately a legal case rather than a political one, though politically I don’t think voters like it when people cheat. In hindsight maybe we should have followed the Karl Rove playbook of turning an asset into a liability. Trump ran in part on being a great businessman; we should have turned that into a house of cards in the popular imagination.
Nobody ever said a Dem never did anything wrong, though your examples are neither very good nor relevant to this discussion. Unless you can come up with a major Democrat who defrauded banks and authorities the way Trump did, both-siderism doesn’t work here, and if you can come up with one Dems are much more likely to call out their own for doing so than Republicans are. Bill Clinton’s behavior towards women is in a different category (assuming its problematic, which I don’t), and the other two are perfectly legal. There’s an argument for banning stock trades, but it’s not fraudulent and Obama’s friends were all vaccinated and I believe the party was ultimately cancelled. You should be pushing back on the claims of false equivalence from low-information voters rather than sympathizing with it.
Since Fred mentioned notorious personalities from the two major parties in the same thread starter the assumption that this was just another spat about “their party is more crooked than ours” was reasonable. Both major party followers defend their people to the end and point to the other side, that is why so many are enrolling as third, or no-party.
Want some examples of Democrat corruption, look no farther than 3, (4) Speakers of the House in Mass convicted. Or are we only saying National corruption is important? Know why I “reside” in Fla at least officially”? I don’t have to register my cars in Mass and pay the excise tax every year. My inspiration was when John Kerry kept his yacht in Rhode Island and didn’t have to pay his Mass taxes.
I hope Trump gets his day in court and if convicted pays dearly and drops out of politics. The last National leader who had an ounce of integrity in my opinion was probably Jimmy Carter and he was doomed by circumstances. The current crop of leaders on both sides just hide their own corruption and point at the other side.
To quote you ”
Dems are much more likely to call out their own for doing so than Republicans are.”
I’m sure you believe that, well to quote Tom Bless your heart.
There have been many Dem complaints about the Speakers you mention. Perusing this blog’s own archives would show that. Fred has at least a couple of times posted the comparative stats that show in federal administrations there have in fact been many more indictments/convictions among Republicans than Democrats. For me though, this thread isn’t even about party. The TRUMPS in particular put pretty much everyone else of both parties to shame in the corruption and grift department.