But it doesn’t really do much for security, since people who aren’t already under suspicion (like, say, Timothy McVeigh or 9/11 attackers) would still be able to get a Real ID.
Maine and Idaho have already passed legislation to block Real ID, and dozens of other states are considering saying no as well. Hopefully Massachusetts will pass Sen. Moore’s resolution and do the same.
The ACLU is providing info and suggested ways of taking action on this.
Please share widely!
ed-prisby says
Why do I care whether the goverment knows which state I’m in at any given moment?
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“Ok guys, there’s Ed on our giant computer monitor, the ‘Leftist-Paranoia-O-Tron 3000’. It says he’s in Massachusetts. No wait, he’s in New Hampshire. No wait, he’s back in Mass! That sneaky bastard!”
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I’m sure there are a million logistical reasons why this would be expensive and not particularly feasible, but at this point I could be swayed either way (preferably for a large sum of money;)).
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But the one thing I will not say is that I definitely have a realistic and rational expectation of privacy about my public movements.
david says
the tracking issue is far less of a big deal than the other items mentioned: huge unfunded mandate for the states, and jackpot for ID thieves that can hack in.
ed-prisby says
fair point
kai says
What purpose does it serve them to know which state you are in at any given time? We should not be so willing to give up the little privacy we have left. If they government absolutely doesn’t need to know, they shouldn’t.
kai says
The last sentence of that comment should be: The burden is on the government to make a compelling case why they need to know, not for us to prove why they shouldn’t.
everybodyleft says
Right. If there’s no reason for them to know, why should they?
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But even so, Real ID is different from driver’s licenses. It REQUIRES you to report your address every time you move, even within a state. It will be much stricter than with current driver’s licenses, which is a problem for students and others who move often. Every time, you’ll need to resubmit validated copies of the documents that prove you’re you and that you live where you say you live.
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We’re basically talking about an internal passport, and why do we want to have that when we’ve seen how this worked out in countries like the Soviet Union and South Africa?? Do we want to give people all over the country the power to basically say, “Your papers, please?” before letting you do something?
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Also, for most this is no big deal, but Real ID will require everyone to have their residential address on the card (and thus in the uber-database). Meaning that cops, judges, domestic violence victims, etc., who currently don’t have to divulge that information on their licenses, in order to protect themselves from wackos, will have to. And everyone’s data — residential addresses, date of birth, Social Security numbers, etc. — could be accessible through any of the thousands of locations throughout the country where Real ID cards will be scanned. The systems to handle and protect all this don’t exist yet, and while Homeland Security says it will be secure, the incentives will be ENORMOUS for people to hack it and steal it.
laurel says
I’ll count down the seconds after I post this until someone accuses me of paranoia. but i must point out that one of the most thorough sweeps of Jews in WWII happened in The Netherlands. Why? Four planets all alligned:
1) The Dutch were (still are) highly anal about knowing where everyone lives and other personal information.
2) The guy in charge of that department was more interested in doing his job well than in how the info he organized was used.
3) IBM
4) Nazis.
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I’m not saying that a genocide will happen here, but it certainly can just as genocides have and continue to happen virtually anywhere people have lived on the earth. (IMO anyone saying it couldn;t happen here after watching Bush erode checks & balances these past 6 years while fanning flames of hatred against Muslims, Gays and the undefined “those who arent with us” have got their heads in the sand and are as hubristic as the shrub hinself.)
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So, why line up the cards for a disaster?
lasthorseman says
is most definitely happening here. While there is no body count for sure American ideals, foundations and morals are dead. We have become more technologically advanced, you kill the society so you then can manipulate the individual.
http://www.scl.cc/ho…
alexwill says
raj says
But the documentation requirements are pretty onerous. The documentation requirements to obtain a US (external) passport are much less–a US birth certificate or a copy of naturalization papers, and current picture was all that was required when I got mine. And getting a new one every time one moves makes it even more onerous.
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In Germany, when one moves to a new town, he or she is supposed to “anmelden” (announce your arrival at the town hall) and “abmelden” (announce that you are departing). They record your arrival or departure in the town records. It seems to me that that should be quite sufficient for the US.
lasthorseman says
VeriChip, Digital Angel
The 666 Mark of the Beast microchips,
Ya, in my cold dead arm.
ed-prisby says
…ummmm…
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what?
lasthorseman says
Billions of dollars are being spent towards the creation of the ultimate Orwellian police state. America as you know it is over, you just don’t know it yet.
ed-prisby says
When it happens will I know it?
centralmassdad says
And are willing to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
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raj says
…Look up RFID on the Internet.
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All that would be necessary is develop a power supply capable of drawing power from a person’s body heat, and putting enough RFID sensors around the country. Implant the RFID chips at birth, and the government will know pretty much where you are are at any point in time.
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Not even ankle bracelets (I’ve mentioned that technology here before) would be required to keep track of people.
anthony says
….I sincerely doubt that this regulation would pass constitutional muster. As I understand it, it is not derived from Congressional spending powers. Are the states being offered any insentive for compliance? This is one of the rare occasions that the commerce clause is going to be of little assistance. Without throwing some serious money at it Congress seems to be overstepping its powers.
everybodyleft says
Yes, there’s an “incentive” for states to comply with Real ID, which is that if they do, their citizens will be able to fly on commercial airlines, enter federal government buildings, etc.
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But there’s no federal money to implement it. Except that the idea has been floated that states could use some of their Homeland Security money, but that would just mean it’s coming at the expense of better security measures.
anthony says
….I mean actual appropriations being tied to the mandate. Congress has limited capacity to legislate and when mandating action to the states, especially in connection to their police powers absent jurisdiction through the 14th Amendment, Congress is at its weakest. If Congress wants Super ID’s they can probably compel all us citizens to get passports. I sincerely doubt the courts will let this legislation continue if challenged. Just about the only time that the SCOUTUS has reigned Congress in is when it starts interfering with state police powers and state legislatures without footing the bill.
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everybodyleft says
… you’re right that this wouldn’t survive a legal challenge, ultimately.
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The approach being taken right now seems to be to get states to say they won’t comply (Maine and Idaho have already done this, with lots of other states including New Hampshire well on their way) so that it’s essentially dead on arrival, or to replace it at the federal level.
jkw says
I can’t imagine the commercial airlines would actually be willing to lose that much business. If any large state refuses to issue the IDs, they will not be required to fly. If they are, it will force all the major airlines into bankruptcy. Congress is not going to let that happen. This is a situation where you can win by standing firm and doing the right thing.
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Given how many libertarians there are in NH, I could actually believe that they will refuse to issue the IDs even if it means they have to shut down all of their commercial airports. There might be a few other states that are willing to threaten shutting down the airlines rather than accepting this. I’m certainly willing to.
raj says
…either already are in, or have been through bankruptcy. I wouldn’t hold out much hope for American much longer. Bankruptcy allows the bankrupt airlines to operate at a lower cost structure than otherwise, since they pay little or no interest on past unsecured debt. American is larger than the others, but it is operating at a higher cost structure.
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As an aside, the US government has made it so uncomfortable to fly, what with “security” and all, that I’m surprised that the airlines still have much of a customer base. And some of it seems to be lunacy. Several years ago, when my spouse and I were flying back to Boston from the Greater Cincinnati Airport, the security personnel actually ran his metal-detector wand over his bare arm–short-sleeved shirt. And that was after he had gone through the large metal detector. It was absolutely bizarre–what did they think they would find in a bare arm?
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When we’re returning to the US from Munich, we have to go through two levels of security, which appear to be duplicative. The last time we returned, we asked the check-in counter attendant why that was and whether that was required for all passengers, even those not bound for the US. She responded, no, it’s just for you–required by your wonderful government. It’s amazing to me that any foreigner would want to even visit the US if they have to go through that clap-trap.
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And that last brings to mind something in the wonderful Boston Globe series on the Irish by Kevin Cullen last Sunday and Monday. It ends with
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Indeed
kai says
“As an aside, the US government has made it so uncomfortable to fly, what with “security” and all, that I’m surprised that the airlines still have much of a customer base.”
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Some of us just don’t have a choice. I don’t even live on the same continent as all of you and all of my family anymore. When I went home for Christmas it took me 8 flights round trip, and a night sleeping on the floor of the Oakland airport. What is my alternative? Sail across the ocean (and there is no regular running commercial service, so I would have to charter a boat), and then get on a locomotive to traverse the vast American continent?
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I think some of the security measures are just silly. For instance, I don’t feel any safer now than I did before I had to take off my shoes. What happens when Richard Reid’s crazy friends try to sneak on some C4 by placing it between his cheeks? Will we all be required to take off our pants, too? The fact remains, I will either have to deal with it, or spend weeks at a time just getting home to be with my family for Christmas. Plenty of people will continue to fly.
sabutai says
I renewed my passport recently — got it last fall. Apparently some new kind with new features. Schmancy barcode.
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Regardless, on my first trip abroad with the new passport this April, I was driving back through Highgate Springs on the way back from Montreal. The US customs agent took my passport, scanned it, and said “OK, you’re all set” without even looking at me.
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Now I’ve been through that border crossing at least 50 times in a car (I lived in Montreal for six years) and I never got past without at least a good look and the usual where ya from-where ya going-why ya going there-ya got anything with you. Now maybe the guy was lazy, or the traffic was long, but I can’thelp wondering if his need not to ask questions was linked to my newish passport.
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(Note: does not subscribe to conspiracy theories. Believes no conspiracies can survive because someone will talk through carelessness if not ideology. Believes we did land on the mood, Walt Disney is dead, and LHO quite possibly shot JFK by himself.)
laurel says
maybe the agent was just trying to make up to someone for the other agent that detained me because i dared to cross into NY gasp! unemployed! they also didn’t like the look of that tanzanian stamp and questioned me up and down about it. yeah, why would anyone want to travel outside The Most Wonderful Country in the World(TM)?. suspicious-making. i learned never show them a passport until it is absolutely required. it just gives them more info to pick on you with.
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i say this in the friendliest way possible: one data point does not a trend make. cross over a few more times to test your the non-conspiracy theory (but not on the same day – then they’ll nab you for sure!).
sabutai says
…get a European passport. All my interesting stamps are on that one, and the American douaniers don’t get to see it. Plus, it helps you get through customs quicker.
laurel says
i’m not eligible for one. where’s that irish granny when you need one… but it is a good idea for those who are eligible, for more reasons than this.
raj says
I haven’t driven across the US-Canada border in over 30 years–most of our travel is by air between the US and either Germany or Switzerland (with a hop from Zurich to Munich). When we leave the US, airlines scan the barcode in, and when we get to the destination (Munich or Zurich) passport control scans the barcode, so they know we left, and they know we got there.
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On the return, the protocol is that the airline scans the barcode in, and the passport control also scans the barcode in. When we arrive at Logan, the US passport control also scans the barcode in. The airlines are required to provide their passenger manifests to the US government, and the Logan passport control can readily determine whether or not someone should be able to enter the US. It speeds entry.
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In addition, the barcode scan at the takeoff point is supposed to allow the US government time to determine whether someone attempting to enter the US is on the US government’s criminal/terrorist watch list.
kai says
and didnt use it again until last winter when I went to the Dominican republic. Coming back they scanned it. I think the bar code has been on there for a while.
sabutai says
My old one had a barcode, but this one seems denser and more informative. Regardless, I’d think they should at least look at the holder…