ON CNN. Limited rules. Candidates asked to stay on point
Opening statement Hillary Clinton: 1st activist job in Austin TX. Talks about Barbara Jordan courage and Ann Richards determination and humor.
For Hillary politics is about making real diffferences in peoples lives. Notes she helped to start children’s health insurance in TX
Nest — Prioritize health insurance, care for veteran’s. Cites her lifetime esperience. Plans to reverse Bush’s give aways to the rich
Please share widely!
cadmium says
Obama notes that he is friends with Hillary Clinton before campaign and will be after.
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p>Nation is at war and economy in shambles. Cites people who he met on campaign trail struggling to get by and struggling get health care. Mentions people who have lost manufacturing jobs and meeting the families of soldiers lost in Iraq. Notes that both he and Sen Clinton have been discussing these issues for months–mostly similar and some differences. Ideas go to die in Washington because of special interests that dominate debate in Washington.
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p>He notes — Sen Clinton’s mention of Barbara Jordan and quotes her “we want an America that is as good as it’s promise”
cadmium says
Release of political prisoners among other moves to freedom. She will be willing to work with Cubans in diplomatic encounters when they show evidence of progress
cadmium says
of Cuban people. He would meet without preconditions — Will require preparations, including having human rights on the agenda.
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p>Supports easing travel restrictions and remittances to refugees. Supports normalization of relations as a goal — It is required to occur in steps
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p>Senator Clinton bascially agrees with him–except when and whether the president should meet without preconditions.
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p>Both emphasize that very important that whoever is president undoes damage to foreign relations by Bush
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p>(editorial comment–there is a bit of nuance in the difference between both positions–very similar)
cadmium says
1st to Obama: he cites deterioration in our economy. Fairness needs to be restored the economy by ending Bush tax cuts and cutting taxes to lower middel class wage earners. Dealing with trade. Opportunities to create “Green economy” is fertile ground for creating jobs. Notes that Clinton and other presidential candidates agree on the priorities. Slight differnce noted and he passes the floor to Sen Clnton
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p>Sen Clinton: What would she do differently? Agrees that what Obama said is the Dem agenda. Notes that eh wealth have had a president for the last 7 years and it is tme the rest of America has a president. Proposes “trade prosecuter” and trade timeout while trade deals examined. Proposes “home foreclosure moratorium” as well as variable interest rate freeze. Notes “Clean Green jobs” and reinvest in infrastructure to create jobs and rebuild USA
cadmium says
Raids that rip families apart are not the America she remembers.
Comprehensive immigration reform needed. Need path to legalization–including learning English and payback taxes. Crackdown on employers
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p>Obama: Agrees his position is similar. He notes failure of comprehensive immigration reform. He adds that the tone of rhetoric has been ugly and unacceptable. Crackdown on employers–notes that it is important to make sure undocumented immigrants are not exploited. Immigrants who apply by standard means are prioritized. Need outreach and cooperation with Mexico
cadmium says
Senator Clinton voted for fence as part of immigration debate.
“there is a smart way and a dumb way to protect borders” Notes how irrationally the implementation of the building of a fence has been. “As with so much the Bush administration has gone off the deep end”
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p>Clinton notes that there are different ways to build fence or enforce borders. Heavy-handed approach of Bush admin (land takings etc) is wrong. Border patrols more important than physical fence
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p>Obama in agreement states that the key is in consulting with local communities. Border patrols more important than physical fence. OBama basically agrees with Clinton so he expands on need for comprehensive immigration policy. States that important to pass “Dream Act” — higher education availability for children of immigrants who are stuck here by no fault of their own/
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p>Question on bilingualism. Hilalry notes that English is the common unifying language –but not the “Official language”. Encourages people to become bilingual
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p>Obama agrees with this. Believes that every student should learn a second language. OK with bilingual education as a transition. Notes that it is important for young people to be able to communicate in other languages with shrinking globe.
cadmium says
? to Clinton —> Asks her about her comment that Bush is all hat and no cattle. Does not say she says this about Obama. Notes that they have run a vigorous and contested primary campaign. Notes they agree on a lot. Notes that in the effort to draw contrasts they highlight how they see the world differently. Notes that one of Obama’s supporters could not name a single Obama accomplishment the other night.
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p>Obama — states he has acted a lot in working for health care, ethics reform, veteran benefits. Notes Clinton has a good record but difference is in how change comes about. Questions her use of the phrase “get real” with reference to his campaign. He notes that his campaign has done well because he has been inspiring people to get involved and to work together as opposed to just policy positions.
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p>
cadmium says
cadmium says
nonsense–have to answer phone a lot tonight.
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p>I hope Hillary did not buy into that canard about speeches too much because I think it makes her look small.
cadmium says
She – picks up on their health care plan differences. She cites Edwards in agreeing with her on mandates to have insurance–as necessary.
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p>Obama notes it is not a mandate proposed on government to provide insurance but the mandate that he opposes is on people to buy insurance.
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p>Clinton — states that it is personal. She notes that this is an important difference. She notes that he mandates for children and that mandates are necessary. He mandates health insurance for children, but adults should have a choice.
charley-on-the-mta says
that they’re both presenting themselves well; and if anything, it’s good for Hillary, in that it reminds the TV audience that she’s damn good too. (I was reminded, anyway.) It strikes me that she’s much better than her campaign.
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p>Hillary makes a good point on Obama’s voluntary health care plan: Should Social Security have been voluntary? Medicare? And Obama’s right back, citing the flaws of the personal mandate. This is really excellent stuff — I follow this issue fairly closely, and I’m not sure who’s closer to being right.
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p>(The right answer, of course, is single-payer: At least, the gov’t guarantees a floor of coverage, and other coverage available in the marketplace.
bob-neer says
Clinton’s “voluntary Social Security,” hypothetical: excellent. Obama: fumbling around about fining parents for not getting insurance for their kids.
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p>Hey, we’re famous! Obama spends a minute or so on Massachusetts. Was he accurate in his characterization of the problems we are having?
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p>Debating Memo to Obama: (a) Remind everyone that Senator Clinton had her chance and botched health care; and (b) that his proposal is more realistic: he’s been accused of living in a, “fairy tale,” (remind everyone of that nasty dig), but since his proposal is more moderate and centrist, it has a been chance.
cadmium says
rhetorically for her. The press misconstrues “mandates” for individuals to buy insurance as universal health care. He notes that the mandate is not for health care to be provided and paid for it is for individuals to buy insurance. If Barack was more of a gotcha-style politician he would spin this as a give away to big insurance companies.
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p>I appreciate Obama taking the high road but the people that spin mandatory insurance purchase as universal health care does registering in the minds of voers.
they says
What if we don’t want to do mandates?
cadmium says
mandate is framed is a distinction that is lost (mandate on people to buy insurance -not the same as universal health care). He loses the rhetorically by not emphasizing that enough as a tax paid to insurance companies
cadmium says
She lists world crises–changes: IRaq, Pakistan, Cuba, and Kosovo
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p>Clinton asserts that she is ready on Day One
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p>Obama: “I wouldnt be running if I didnt think I waas prepared to be Commander -in Chief” He notes priority to keep Americans safe, use military wisely, and provide support for troops. He notes IWR and states Clinton was wrong. Notes how Iraq ieffort is undermining Afghanistan effort. He cites IWR resolution is a bad judgement with consequences.
bob-neer says
Beat Clinton over the head one more time with that pro-invasion vote. Bonus points if she takes the bait and tries to argue disingenuously that she wasn’t really voting for an invasion.
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p>Excellent answer by Clinton though. She really is a very poised and professional debater.
johnk says
Both Clinton and Obama voted for the fence, I see a bit of a parallel here. They both said that Bush screwed up what they were voting for in the bill. That’s pretty much Hillary’s argument with the Iraq war. She has been beaten over and over and Obama’s record is not stellar to say the least. In these two issues both Clinton and Obama fail miserably. But my question, does he get a pass in his argument? If you think so, then why not Hillary.
cadmium says
Question to Clinton first — is Iraq better off because of surge? Questioner assumes surge is working. How can they debate this credibly with John McCain?
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p>Hillary notes that purpose of surge was to give opportunity for political stability which is not happening. She notes that her first act will be to ask Joint Chiefs for a plan to begin withdrawing troops in 60 days.
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p>Obama notes that reduction of violence recently is indisputable but this is a tactical victory and the whole war is a strategic blunder. Notes that not only has Iraq detracted from Afghanistan but also from Central America. Cites poor care that veterans are receiving—and connects this with the 12 Billion dollars spent in Iraq.
bob-neer says
They’ll both say the same thing. This is supposed to be a debate, not a rehashing of past NYT editorials.
cadmium says
either candidate can do is question the assumption made in this question whether it is true or not.
matthew02144 says
“It’s not change you can believe in, it’s change you can Xerox.”
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p>I liked it a lot.
pipi-bendenhaft says
I disagree, I thought it was a mistake. The problem is that it accidentally insults the millions of people who have voted for Obama, not just Obama.
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p>It was beneath her. She actually had quite a few good moments, and I did feel quite proud of her (and I am an Obama supporter). But that was not one of them.
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p>Her close, on the other hand, was dignified and quite moving.
joes says
Isn’t a bit of that “great” close lifted directly from a John Edwards moment?
pipi-bendenhaft says
Ideas are good things. We use words to communicate concepts. I am glad that both of the Democratic candidates appear to be listening to the words and the concepts of others. Listening and learning is not a bad thing. Obama from Patrick, Clinton from Edwards.
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p>I think this plagarism “xerox” charge against Obama by Clinton is another stupid campaign miscalculation, as your comment reflects. It appears petty and small, and too easy to turn back on Clinton, herself.
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p>I, for one, am happy to vote for a President wise enough to listen and learn from the good words of others; A final and welcome change from George “I’m the Decider” Bush.
bob-neer says
Here’s the video posted to Kos. It seems to me this is a paraphrase. Obama’s was a direct lift. Whatever, this is an idiotic issue.
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p>Just reminded me of how blessed I feel not to have to listen to Edwards’ fatuous babbling anymore (sorry, Edwards fans — no offense, just my personal opinion!).
joeltpatterson says
Bob, if you think it is silly for a political leader to remind voters that America does not take care of its own, especially the injured, the ailing and the poor, then what’s the difference between you and the Conservatives’ stereotype of an elitist liberal who doesn’t really care about ordinary people?
hrs-kevin says
No doubt her supporters loved it, but that quote together with the jeering that followed it and Obama’s response became today’s news story and overshadowed the genuinely good aspects of her debate performance. It also makes her look like a giant hypocrite when people start digging up all of the words she herself has borrowed from other politicians.
cadmium says
Obama takes issue with assumption of the question that he will not reveal where his earmarks have gone. He states that this is information that is available and would be provided as asked. He notes that many are worthy projects.
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p>To Clinton question is asked re: McCain’s claim that he does not take earmarks. She notes his irresponsible fiscal stances including he support for the Bush tax cuts. She does a good job generalizing about fiscal responsibility of her plan an d the fiscal irresponsibility of the Republicans
cadmium says
She states it will be settled and that there will be a unified Democratic party
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p>Obama states that voters will should be honored. He also states that Dem party will summon a sense of common purpose.
cadmium says
Obama notes it was not a single moment but it was the trajectory of his life — raised by single mother, learning to take responsibiliy for actions, working as community organizer, civil rights attorney. Cites cumulative experience.
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p>Clinton notes her well publicized challenges –
cites that they are small compared to the challenges faced by Americans in daily lives. Recounts visit to Brooks veterans rehab. “Hits I’ve taken in life are nothing compared-” Cites dedication to service as motivation<
p>She is honored to be here with Barak Obama — sincerely says she is honored. They shake hands. We will be fine–I just hope we can say the same thing for the American people that is what this election is about.
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p>UNITY Gets a rousing standing ovation for both candidates.
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p>Excellent debate. Probably better than the spin will be after.
bob-neer says
(From Clinton)
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p>They shake hands. Standing ovation.
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p>I think that was an important historic moment.
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p>(a) Point to Clinton on class.
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p>(b) Point for the Party. Good sign, I think.
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p>(c) Does she see the possibility of a defeat, and want to line herself up for VP?
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p>Personally, as I have said before, I think Clinton-Obama or Obama-Clinton would be the best possible Democratic ticket, and would crush McCain-whomever.
lanugo says
She doesn’t bring Obama much as a VP candidate and I don’t think she’d take it – why not stay in the Senate and become a dynamo there.
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p>Obama should look at Richardson because he brings an important state and demographic and has experience, maybe some other Senate colleagues (I like Jim Webb) and maybe outside chance being a red-state Governor (Kaine, Sebelius).
cannoneo says
She was able to invoke her own struggles while convincingly putting them in perspective.
matthew02144 says
Clinton’s closing statements were pretty impressive. Very moving, very real, very….Presidential.
progressiveman says
…it almost seemed to be her valedictory speech…recognizing this is almost over.
matthew02144 says
that’s just cause she knows how to play the game…
mojoman says
Funny note on that closing statement being very …Presidential
they says
that explains it
theopensociety says
Here is the video of both candidates answers to the last question of last night’s debate:
cadmium says
better than the debates with 3 or 4 candidates when they inevitably gang up on each other.
goldsteingonewild says
Wife got to watch LOST, I get the Cliffs Notes version of debate!
cadmium says
bob-neer says
Terrific effort. A breath of fresh air in comparison with CNN’s Muppet Show.
laurel says
yesterday. unbelievable.
laurel says
oops. here’s the link
http://www.star-telegram.com/d…
trickle-up says
as someone who did not watch it, is: which BMGer’s advice best describes the tack Clinton actually took tonight?
cadmium says
took an issues-orientated approach that they are most comfortable with — understandably amplifying differences when possible. Hillary tried the Barack plagerized gambit. It fell flat and they both went on to note there strenghts. An hour and a half for two people to debate all domains news/issues is going to force it to be a little thin They are both coming off as knowledgable and dedicated. That cant reliable happen in a 3 or 4 person put down circus like the prior debates. My take on Barak and Hillary is that they are both most comfortable when addressing issues and priorities rather than campaign rhetoric and put-down contests. I think they shine in this format–would love to see them discuss and debate the issues one on one some day when there a no electoral contests at stake.
jconway says
I went to watch a taping of Wait Wait Dont Tell me which was far more amusing and edifying than this debate would have been.
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p>To be honest debating on issues is bad at this point since essentially with the exception of the mandate (which is not a big deal for the average voter) these guys agree on a lot.
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p>So the question is do you want a candidate that will promise good, smart, pragmatically progressive ideas and excite voters and win over some members of the opposing side or a candidate that will make this a campaign about the past few decades, political mud, and personality.
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p>Obama vs McCain would be a civil campaign that will be issues focused, Obama will bring in disaffected Republicans, and next to crusty old McCain he will look young, refreshing, and like the bold jumpstart this nation needs.
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p>Honestly folks if a Clinton cannot win the Democratic primary either Obama is in fact a better talent than a Clinton, or the Clinton in question has serious problems with their own party. I say its a combination of the two and might as well go with the unifying candidate that can actually win.
daves says
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p>Really? I think it will be just as nasty as the last election. We just don’t know yet what the 2008 Swiftboat will look like. McCain will stick to his holier-than-thou attitude, while his agents will do the dirty work.
joeltpatterson says
the confederate flag a “symbol of heritage” to win SC, and he was, then he’ll call Obama a sleeper cell terrorist, a drug dealer, and a closet homosexshal to win the US.
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p>and David Broder and Nick Kristof will admire his Courage.