Blue Mass Group

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Karl Rove on the importance of a qualified VP

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Once upon a time, Tim Kaine was on Obama’s VP short list.  Here’s Karl Rove on that possibility (emphasis mine):

“With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he’s been a governor for three years, he’s been able but undistinguished,” Rove said. “I don’t think people could really name a big, important thing that he’s done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America.”

Rove continued: “So if he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I’m really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States? What I’m concerned about is, can he bring me the electoral votes of the state of Virginia, the 13 electoral votes in Virginia?'”

The 105th largest city in America.  Anyone care to guess where Wasilla, Alaska falls on the “largest cities in America” list?

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  2. Karl should know that his words sometimes come back to haunt him!  Remember Valerie Plame?

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    p>This Gov. Palin seems to be Jane Swift plus congeniality.  Hopefully, people will see through this GOP ploy.

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    p>This time, McCain maybe got a little too cute?

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    p>The petulent child rides again!

    <

    p>

    • I found Jane Swift quite congenial.  Like many accidental leaders, she was in over her head.  Unlike most, she seemed to recognize that.  I think we’d have done far better with Governor Swift than we did with Governor Romney.

      • Even though I opposed her politics – I always felt she got a raw deal in some way – particularly when pushed to the side by the callous Mitt.  I felt the press never took her seriously and was pretty unfair to her even though she was actually very bright and potentially very competent.  Her youth and in-office-motherhood took the headlines and detracted from how people saw her as a leader.  Of course her misdeeds – from using staff to baby sit to taking the state helicopter for personal business – didn’t help.  

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        p>But its a problem that most accidental leaders, women and men, have when assuming office.  They have no broadbased democratic legitimacy of their own – no wellspring of support, no one who feels bought in to their success because they punched the ticket for them.  And when they are seen as being picked not for their experience but more for their demographic that sense of accident is compounded.  

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        p>Palin was clearly picked – like Swift – because of her gender (and her tick box rightwing views) more than her record or suitability for highest office.  That does not jibe well with McCain’s country first mantra.

    • When Palin was chosen the first thing that popped into my head was Cellucci’s choice of Jane Swift back in 98 (not to mention Muffy’s selection by Mitt four years later but Swift makes a better comparison).  There are many parallels here between Palin and Swift.  

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      p>Both came from areas of their state/nation far beyond where most people live (in the far northwest of each) – Swift from almost on the New York line and Palin from the Arctic – and were thus unknowns.  Both were the youngest and first women to be elected to their respective offices.  Both were mothers or soon to be mothers of young children while in office and yet were conservatives (although Palin much more so given Alaska’s right-wing political complexion) – so they both brought an interesting mix of traditional family values-working motherhood to the table.  Swift was considered an outsider as is Palin – breaking into the old boys network and closed politics of their States.

      <

      p>The big difference here is obviously that while Cellucci was able to bring Swift and her pregnancy from relative obscurity to high office, being a heartbeat away from the Governor of Massachusetts is not nearly as significant as the presidency so the risks were not as serious in considering an experience gap.  The fact that no one outside the Berkshires had heard of the young mother-to-be and sitting State Senator Swift, was not such a problem.  It drew largely favorable attention and allowed Cellucci to pick his own partner and fight off Joe Malone in what was a nasty primary – where Malone also picked a female running mate.

      <

      p>With Palin though – especially given McCain’s age and health history – her readiness to be president is most certainly gonna be the big issue (maybe the issue) for her and her patron McCain.  So McCain rolled the dice here big time.  Some could argue it demonstrates he is confident in his own experience and knowledge and thus doesn’t need a seasoned politician by his side.  I tend to think it smacks of desperation though as many here have pointed out.  McCain sought a game-changer.  The party and right-wing brass wouldn’t let him choose either Lieberman (his first choice) or Ridge so the only other way to go for the endzone and try to shift the dynamics of the race was with someone like Palin.  Huge gamble and, while biased, my sense (and hope) is it won’t pay off.  

  3. Keep picking on a woman. It’s going to work real well for you.

    <

    p>Let’s look at the respective records of Obama and Palin shall we.  

    <

    p>For 5 years before Barack Obama held one iota of elected office, Governor Palin was in public service.  Barack Obama was a “community organizer” whatever the hell that is during this time.

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    p>Barack Obama was in the Illinois State Senate where, according to the New York Times, he voted present 130 times. Often on controversial issues so he would not have a controversial voting record when running for higher office.  I’m sorry but you have to make decisions as the Chief Executive of a country every second of every day.  Obama has shown an unwillingness to make those decisions.

    <

    p>Obama has zero executive experience.  Governor Palin garnered more executive experience in her first day as Governor than Biden and Obama combined.  Before you go and say that John McCain has no executive experience, being a Commander(the rank, which is equivalent to Colonel) in the Navy means you have command experience.  This experience is directly translatable into executive experience.

    <

    p>So please David, continue to fall into the neatly constructed trap the McCain campaign has laid out for you. I’m sure they’d love to talk about experience for the rest of the election.

    • Before you go and say that John McCain has no executive experience, being a Commander(the rank, which is equivalent to Colonel) in the Navy means you have command experience.  This experience is directly translatable into executive experience.

      <

      p>Also, please demonstrate what specific command/executive experiences Commander John McCain participated in that prepared him to be the cheif executive of the United States.  

    • Keep picking on a woman. It’s going to work real well for you.

      <

      p>Keep suggesting that a politician is above criticism merely because she’s a woman.  See how well that works for you [and Hillary Clinton for that matter].

      <

      p>

      For 5 years before Barack Obama held one iota of elected office, Governor Palin was in public service.  Barack Obama was a “community organizer” whatever the hell that is during this time.

      <

      p>That’s true.  And I’m sure the comprehensive experience she gained in the four years she racked up on the city council for a town of 7,000 will have tremendous value to her role as POTUS in two years when McCain’s health gets the better of him.

      <

      p>Governor Palin has zero international experience.  Barack Obama garnered more international experience in his first day as US Senator than Palin.  Before you go and say that Sarah Palin has no international experience, please remember that exotic places like Alaska and Hawaii are in fact part of the United States.

      <

      p>So please EaBo, continue to fall into the neatly constructed trap that the McCain campaign has laid out for you.  Experience is a dog that just won’t hunt Obama any more, and the GOP’s chivalrous protection of Palin will be seen for the sexism that it is.

    • I love having you on this site, not only for the occasional salient point (none today, sadly), but also for the constant stream of comedic genius.  

      <

      p>I cannot wait to hear someone tease out the argument that Palin, as a mayor of a tiny town and a new Governor of a small and peculiar state, has more “executive experience” (by which of course is meant experience relevant to dealing with foreign policy, the GWOT, etc.) than Joe Biden.

      <

      p>Neatly constructed trap.  LOL!!

      • and He’s running for President.  And can you educate me, what executive experience does Biden have?  As far as I can tell he got out of law school and about 6 months later he was in the Senate and has been ever since.  So yes she does.

        • She also has more experience being a woman than Obama. Also more mothering experience. More children in Iraq than Obama. More experience living in Alaska. More experience than either as chief executive of a thriving metropolis hamlet, and now ~20 months more experience than either as governor of a state that has roughly half the population of Middlesex County, MA.

          <

          p>Sure, she’s got more experience than Obama or Biden. I mean, you win, dude.

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          p>EaBo … I just think that some discernment is missing from your argument. If you think she’s brilliant, a rising star, and has terrific brains and judgment, that great, and you should say so; after all, that’s why I like Obama. But please let’s not have this silly-ass argument about experience. She ain’t got much, especially compared to the alternatives that got passed over.

          <

          p>Experience: If that were really the deciding factor, we’d be looking at a rockin’ Ted Stevens vs. Robert Byrd 2008 election. Go experience!

          • This thread was about Rove’s quote about Kaine, highlighting the part where he says the narrative would be changed if he picked Kaine, it would be saying “I’m really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States?”  So Eabo addressed that point directly, saying that Palin still has more than Obama.  I’m sure he would rather be talking about how inspiring she is and has great judgement and skills.

            <

            p>And then he mocked the size of the hamlet.  (hey it was her hometown, and that is a very good way to appreciate the idea of trust and public service.)

          • She is a rising star, she did fight corruption, she is articulate.  That’s not what this thread was about.  This thread was about Palin’s lack of experience.  Which you so eloquently stated is more than Obama’s.  Thanks.  I’ll be writing a pretty lengthy diary over the weekend extolling why I love the pick. It is transformative, she is the face of young conservatism.  

            <

            p>I also like that she’s actually worked a day in her life in manual labor.  She knows what shift work is like, as many of us do.  You know the “deadliest catch” she actually worked it, I’m not sure if it was crabbing, but she’s been a fisherman in the Bering Sea.  She comes from a union family.

            <

            p>She is a brilliant woman in her own right.  This is the pick that I and my friends were hoping McCain had the balls to make.  

            • I trust you didn’t miss the irony intended, but I’ll spell it out anyway: It’s what kind of experience; and more importantly, the temperament and judgment forged in that experience.

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              p>As for “the face of young conservatism” … hell, you may be right, but who’s buying?

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              p>I’ll reserve final judgment on the pick until I hear her speak at some length. But I’ll tell you … she had better be really awesome, Eabo. Prodigiously awesome. If she comes across as your standard decent regional governor that knows a few things about budgets and schools and workman’s comp and the local widget factories … not anywhere near good enough.

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              p>What about terror? Nuclear proliferation? Pakistan? Trade agreements? Does she really know energy policy? Even if you don’t care for Obama’s level of experience, the fact is that he’s been constantly grilled on this stuff for a year and half.

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              p>She’s got a hell of a learning curve coming up.

        • Here’s a handy link:

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          p>http://vps28478.inmotionhosting.com/~bluema24/s…

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          p>Suffice it to say, with “leadership skills” like that, she should be kept as far away from the corridors of power as is humanly possible.  Are you aware that she oversaw a tax increase in Wasilla?  Are you aware that she raised taxes as governor?  Are you aware that her husband appears to be a shadow governor?  Do you know how silly you look defending her?

  4. The question is not how big Wasilla is now, more of how big it was when Palin was mayor.  She was last elected in 1999 in a “landslide.”  She got 73% of the votes, 909 votes total.

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    p>Wasilla has been annexing land and growing rapidly in this century.  The city is an hour from Anchorage, and high housing prices have pushed people into the exurbs.  The city has been annexing land in the surrounding unincorporated “borough,” including a new Wal-Mart.  (The city gets to levy a sales tax!)

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    p>Mayor Palin’s homeland security credentials includes a police force of less than two dozen employees, and no fire or EMS service (provided by the borough).

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    p>Think of a municipality the size of Boxborough, MA (pop 5,403).

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    p>

    As of the census of 2000, there were 5,470 people, 1,980 households, and 1,360 families residing in the city. The population density was 470 people per square mile (180/km²). There were 2,120 housing units at an average density of 181/sq mi (70/km²). The racial makeup of the city was 85% White, 0.6% black or African American, 5% Native American, 1% Asian, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 1% from other races, and 6% from two or more races. 4% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.

    • of less than two dozen employees (at the city level, I would think Alaska has more) is infinitely more.  I’ve taken the time to mathematically prove it to you.  See below.

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      p>

      • If McCain takes ill in office given he is pretty darn old and has a history of health problems (so its not far fetched to picture his veep potentially assuming office) – are you personally happy to have Sarah Palin carrying around the nuclear football, directing two wars and countless military operations around the world and managing relations with both friends and foes on innumerable difficult issues?

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        p>This isn’t a comparison with Obama.  You and many others don’t think he is ready.  That is your view and I disagree with it strongly but you can have it.  But, do you honestly think Palin is ready?  Are you confident she is ready to be the most powerful person on earth?  

        <

        p>Again, don’t compare to Obama.  Judge her on her own merits.  Obama has already been judged on his in 54 contests against some of the most experienced hands in Washington.  She hasn’t.

        • Again, don’t compare to Obama.  Judge her on her own merits.  Obama has already been judged on his in 54 contests against some of the most experienced hands in Washington.  She hasn’t.

          <

          p>Maybe we should go back to the way it was done originally.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T…

          • I’m not so sure about that. I mean, there’s already enough concern that some nutjob is gonna try to do in President Obama. Imagine if that nutjob got “rewarded” with President McCain upon his success?? No need to add any incentives here, thanks.

            <

            p>I’d rather do it the way we chose Murray to be our Lieutenant Governor. The Democrats had a field of three people running, and in the primary process, Murray won. Aside from Reilly’s abortive pick of St. Fleur, none of the gubernatorial candidates endorsed an LG candidate.

            <

            p>I like that method. It made sense. We were able to separately pick who we thought should be “a heartbeat away” from the governor’s office. This whole thing of having the candidates choose by fiat who they think should be in this position seems more and more ludicrous every time.

      • … and the thing is, Obama has been exhibiting leadership since before he was done with school.  Consistently for the entire duration.  I don’t know about the ‘present’ votes, but votes aren’t ‘generic’ and so I’d need to the details of any ‘present’ vote to criticize it.  Palin seems to have been a mayor and a city councilor.  Not to put too fine a point on it but if I had a nickel for every mayor or city councilor that wasn’t a leader…  I guess I’d need to hear more about her run for the governorship.  What got her elected exactly?

        • She got appointed to the oil oversight board in alaska by the governor.  It didn’t take her very long to find numerous ethics violations and general shady behavior by many people.  She started whistleblowing and the governor tried to shitcan her, so she ran against him on a platform of anti-corruption and a reformer.  Another big party was her opposition to the squishy deals the oil companies were offering murkowski, if you know what I mean.  She blew him out of the water in the primary and went on to win against the democrat.  

          <

          p>Her actions have directly caused the resignations and subsequent fining of many people in her party.  Why do you think the senate president over there was up in arms over her selection to VP?  Alaskan politics are drenched in oil money and are pretty much as corrupt as it comes, and she dared to stand up to it.  However much vitriol she gets from alaskan pols, she has a consistent 80-90% approval rating.  

      • E_O is a constant, not a variable.  It’s the measurement of Obama’s [not just executive] experience.

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        p>While it’s changing [increasing] over time, it’s the dependent variable related to the implicit independent variable t (time), which is why we treat it as a constant for a given t.

        <

        p>You can’t take the limit of a constant as it approaches 0, because it doesn’t approach 0.  It’s as nonsensical as writing
        lim
        4->0

        <

        p>4 doesn’t approach 0 because it’s a constant for any value t, just like E_O.

        <

        p>If you really wanted to take a limit and use E_BHO, you could do:
        lim E_BHO
        t -> 0+

        <

        p>or

        <

        p>lim E_BHO
        t -> inf

        <

        p>where the first one represents playing time backwards to when BHO was born, and the latter represents playing time forwards to eternity or somesuch.  Since the function is likely continuous at t=0, we observe that
        lim E_BHO
        t -> 0+

        <

        p> =

        <

        p>lim E_BHO
        t -> 0-

        <

        p> =

        <

        p>lim E_BHO
        t -> 0

        <

        p>But typically when modeling a creature over time, we try to avoid t -> 0- because it doesn’t have much application.

        <

        p>

        <

        p>P.S. Using an “Oh” instead of a “Zero” for a subscript is really bad form in mathematics.  I understand why you did it, but because using zero as a subscript is so common, mathematicians tend to avoid O.  Perhaps E_SHLP and S_BHO would be better.

    • And I’m a woman, too.  How come McCain didn’t pick me?
      Oh yeah, forgot for a moment that I’m pro-same sex marriage, pro-stem cell research and an atheist.  

  5. Check out this post at volokh.com

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    p>

    I’ve always admired John McCain (though I have to say, in the interests of full disclosure, that I’m not voting for him this Fall); he was, by far, my favorite among the Republicans seeking the nomination, and I was delighted that he prevailed. I have to say, though, that his choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate is appalling and insulting to the American people. Perhaps it will turn out to be a political masterstroke, “energizing the base” and garnering lots of disaffected Clinton supporters; perhaps not. But to my mind, as a voter, the sole criterion for evaluating a candidate’s VP choice is whether or not the candidate has picked someone who can plausibly be viewed as presidential timber and, no disrespect intended to Ms. Palin, who was apparently a decent mayor of Wasilla AK (pop. 9,000) and who has been serving as governor of Alaska for all of two years, McCain has failed miserably on that score. His recent complaints that Obama is too inexperienced to be President are not only fatally undercut by this choice, they look downright idiotic now — coming from someone who would put Gov. Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency. It is the grossest form of pandering — what happened to “putting your country first”? This choice puts McCain’s candidacy first and the fate of the country a very distant second, and he should be, and I hope he is, punished by the electorate for having made it.

  6. From their official biographies:


    Over Two Decades of Public Service:

    On January 3, 2007, Governor M. Jodi Rell was sworn in for her own term as Governor of the great State of Connecticut. She is the state’s 87th Governor and the first-ever woman Republican Governor of Connecticut.

    Governor Rell has held elected office in Connecticut for more than two decades. She holds the state’s highest office after serving as the 105th Lieutenant Governor for over nine years. Governor Rell also represented the 107th House District of Brookfield in the state House of Representatives where she held key leadership posts, including Deputy House Minority Leader and Assistant House Minority Leader.

    Governor Lingle is the sixth elected Governor of Hawai’i. She is the first mayor, first woman and first person of Jewish ancestry to be Governor. She is also the first Republican to lead the Aloha State in more than 40 years. In November 2005, she was awarded the Diversity Best Practices Award for Leadership in Government – the first such award for a state’s chief executive.

    She first served the people of Hawai’i in 1980 as a member of the Maui County Council, and went on to complete five two-year terms, three representing the island of Moloka’i. In 1990, she was elected Mayor of Maui County and served two full four-year terms. Under her leadership, job growth was faster in Maui County than anywhere else in the state.

    Governor Lingle is a native of St. Louis, Missouri. When she was 12, her family moved to Southern California, where she attended public schools. She relocated to Hawai’i in 1975 after graduating cum laude with a journalism degree from California State University, Northridge.  In 1976, she founded and began serving as publisher of the Moloka’i Free Press.

    • … is hugely popular, one of the most popular GOP govs in the country. But because she’s actually pretty moderate and competent, she can’t even get a sniff at the VP spot. Wingnut veto. Of course, that’ll quite possibly veto McCain’s whole candidacy, but they’ll have to figure that out for themselves …  

  7. Let’s not get pulled into a comparison between Obama and Palin.  Obama is running for president.  He won the nomination after 54 contests across the entire country and has been tested and vetted in a way few presidential nominees ever are through that interminable process.  

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    p>This is about Obama and McCain.  And McCain, who is trying to make an understanding of foreign affairs and experience with national security issues a litmus test for the job – all 72 years of him, with a history of melanoma to boot – just picked the most inexperienced veep nominee in these two areas in recent memory.  That is just the facts.  

    <

    p>If choosing a running mate is the most important decision a nominee makes – what do the choices here say about Obama and McCain.  No one doubts for a minute Biden’s capacity to step in a take over.  Everyone is doubting Palin’s ability.  Palin is seen as a choice made to 1) placate the right-wing base and 2) to pick off women voters.  She is not seen as someone chosen because she is the best person for the job.  To say her choice is entirely tactical and cynical would be an understatement.  Whatever McCain now says about putting country first is underminned by this choice.  Palin has many admirable qualities and is no doubt a rising force in politics.  But she was chosen for her gender and right-wing views – not because of her ability.    

  8. This might not mean much coming from an Obama supporter, but Obama is the executive of his campaign for President. His leadership and execution of an excellent and transformative campaign that came from nowhere to defeat monolithic, nominee-in-waiting Clinton machine, not to mention the campaign’s phenomenal perfomance in fundraising and growth, is very impressive. Examining how he’s planned and managed his campaign, played his even handed strategy, and adapted to the road bumps demonstrates to my satisfaction that Obama is a talented executive. At the very least I can say that I have enough information to make a judgement that Obama will make a better cheif executive of the US than McCain or Palin.

    <

    p>I know this argument isn’t going to persuade the Eabo’s of the world that Mrs. Palin isn’t infinitely more qualified to in the Executive Branch then Obama, but it’s not like rational arguments (or facts, for that matter) have pursuaded doctrinaire types like him in the past.  

  9. Truth be told, Senators Obama, McCain, Biden, have not had to deal with budgets, public agencies including law enforcement as a mayor or governor.  One may argue that Governor Palin has more leadership experience than the other three combined.  

    <

    p>But does it matter?  The fellow the world hopes we replace was governor of Texas.  Who would deny him the title of incompetent?  So much for “experience”.

    <

    p>Let us not talk on about experience.  Give us hope for a better tomorrow.  

  10. Last night I got a phone call from my Republican parents.  When last I talked to them, they were among the undecided.  If McCain would have picked Lieberman, they would have been his in November.  Fair to say they are moderate Republicans, the kind of voters who elect people like Jodi Rell and Christopher Shays.

    <

    p>A great speech by Barack Obama, and McCain’s VP pick were the one-two punch that moved them from undecided to Obama.  They are residents of a New York suburb, a village of 7,500, and they can’t possibly imagine the local mayor as governor, not to mention Vice President of the United States.

    <

    p>The bumper stickers are in the mail.

  11. More than Obama but neither is compared to McCain. In a “normal” election with qualified experienced candidates neither Obama or Palin pass muster but considering the new gutter level bar that has been lowered for Presidential experience by Obama, I think she passes the standard quite well.

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    p>I was trying to talk to people yesterday about Obama’s speech but everyone wanted to talk about Gov Palin as VP… AWESOME! Perfect timing to steal Obama’s thunder. Who knows how many votes this will translate into… but even if McCain loses he will have moved the Republican party ahead by such a bold move. And she’s hot!!!

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