Last victim of the year which ironically appears in the Boston Globe near a story about the city cutting 200 Police Officers from the street.
Why would I move back from the safe suburbs to ride a bus down Blue Hill Ave? Ain’t gonna happen for me or any of the other people needed to make the city or any of the other “gateway” cities in MA viable. Nope.
Please share widely!
johnk says
Should we raise taxes and have more youth programs and keep police on the street? What? Let us know.
johnd says
I think youth programs are a bunch of shit. “Gee, I didn’t want to rob the gas station but the basketball lights weren’t working so robbed the place and raped the attendant…”. What a bunch of crap. Kids all over the state seem to avoid drugs, gangs and violence without an overabundance of youth programs.
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p>Ideas… First “move out” if at all possible or at the very least avoid the worst areas (check out the crime stats from the Boston Police website). After that, get more cops on the streets by eliminating administrative positions in all departments. I used to work at a cemetery in Boston for the city and there was so much waste (my job was a total political thing). Keep more of these thugs in jail with longer sentences. Teach the mothers and fathers some of Obama’s message about more to be a parent than just making a baby. Teach the boys in school about child support haunting them for the next 23 years. Arrest gang members just for being a gang member. Throw anyone caught with a gun in jail for the max, no paroles… same for drugs. Teach the “good” people living in the area that their ambivalence and lack of helping the Police is what allows this to happen. Crime would almost cease if people thought their neighbors were going to drop a dime, even on a relative. Shadow the known scumbags in the neighborhoods too.
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p>Don’t raise taxes since the people in Boston who pay the most taxes are the ones who use the least services… same old story. The people living in these areas are already getting a free ride for services and use a disproportionately higher amount of city services. Why is it money is always the answer? When school performance sucks they want more money… even though some of the best performing schools (students) are educated in shitty rotten buildings. Money won’t fix these problems but civility and instilling some morality will.
hoyapaul says
So you think youth programs are “a bunch of shit” but you think a 16 year old kid will stop committing crime or having sex if they know about child support “haunting them for the next 23 years”? I hope you’re not serious.
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p>Also, I note your suggestion that we:
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p>Believe it or not, that requires extra police work…requiring additional funding, which in turn may very well require higher taxes.
huh says
Kids in the suburbs have sex and do drugs, too. I was one of them. JohnD lives a rich fantasy life.
johnd says
So was I. The funny thing is I don’t think the average person really cares about people having sex or doing drugs. I know I don’t. What I care about is when these morons screw up and it costs me either money or some cost to society. Kids having sex isn’t the issue it’s the morons who get knocked up and then cost society money. Here’s a link of teen pregnancy rates for MA with Holyoke, Chelsea, Lawrence and Springfield leading the proud pack. Who do you think is going to pay for these wonderful little people… that’s right tax payers. Who’s lives have just been dealt a blow for any hope of really making it… the mothers. If my neighbor (in the suburbs) has a teen get pregnant then I’m sure their family will help pay for things and raise the kid and cost me little. As for drugs, same thing. If my neighbor in the burbs or some kid in Dot want to take drugs, good luck to both of them. But when the kid in the city robs a corner store to pay for his drugs that’s a problem. When the kid in the burbs needs money maybe he steals from hi parents or works for the money but it doesn’t effect me.
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p>I don’t live in a rich fantasy life huh, I lived in both worlds and like this one much better right now. Sorry you feel people like me have no right to comment on those worlds or offer suggestions. Like many others I haven’t heard a single constructive word out of your mouth, just attacks on me. You are part of the problem. Look at he wonderful world you and your kind has created for all these families in Dorchester and Roxbury and beyond. Do you think these people are happy ducking bullets in their houses and sending their kids out on the streets every day and night?
kbusch says
It is all tribal, isn’t it?
huh says
Of course he may be referring to the Gay/Jewish Cabal secretly running the world. In that case, carry on.
johnd says
kbusch says
huh says
It IS hockey season, after all.
kbusch says
It never would have occurred to me that JohnD, through the amazing power of his forceful arguments, the impenetrable wall of his factual preparation, and the sweeping power of his rhetoric, might get anyone in such trouble that would require my meager ability at “rescuing”.
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p>Then again, I’m new at tribal warfare.
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p>Or possibly I should be thinking of a less elevated sport than hockey.
huh says
Mickey Rourke is note perfect as is Marisa Tomei. One of my top 5 for 2008. Not exactly upbeat, but a great small movie.
johnd says
johnd says
Do you think a 16 year old will not commit a crime if he goes to a youth rock concert from 8-11:00PM on Friday night, or sits in a gym playing with gimp… What youth programs are going to stop a shooting in Mattapan square at 3:00AM? I don’t know if many of you happen by the Square at 3:00AM but while we are all sleeping the square and Blue Hill Ave are hopping crazy. Exactly what youth programs will stop these crimes?
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p>Find money for the extra cops from less spending not more taxing.
hoyapaul says
Yes, I think youth programs can work. Here’s one academic study [PDF] that concludes that “several community-wide prevention efforts and recreation programs such as midnight basketball have been demonstrated to be effective. Prevention through youth programs has been shown to work.” There’s a reason why police favor these programs.
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p>This doesn’t mean that youth programs are a panacea, but they can and do get kids off the street. Young males and boredom are a bad combination. In any case, they are likely a lot more effective at reducing bad behaviors than telling them about the horrors of paying child support years down the road.
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p>Finally, if you are concerned with the occurrence of senseless death and its negative effect on the viability of cities, as you seem to be in your original post, then why demand that funding come exclusively from spending cuts? If crime is a major problem for gateway cities (and it is), governments should use all their tools to address the problem, including raising additional revenues.
johnd says
I read academic studies all the time for drug discovery research and the majority of them are worthless.
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p>People, like me, are tired of hearing “we need more money” to fix every problem. Most problems in the city and other cities are social and cultural. Parents can fix these problems completely on their own, without money. Stop trying to throw money at every issue. I do care about the violence since my Mother still lives in Dorchester as well as many friends, but I detest the idea that having midnight basketball and “take the kid to a Red Sox game” trips is going to fix these problems. Will it hurt, no. Does it help, yes. But it’s like getting $50 of the price of a Mercedes and money is too tight right now to waste it on this type of program.
huh says
However, since you seem to prefer anecdotes here’s one: A few years back Mayor Menino slashed the after school budget (including midnight basketball) as part of overall budget cuts. The programs were reinstated after a dramatic increase in teen crime.
mr-lynne says
… means a adhering anti-intellectualism in general. It is what makes many of the generally immune to data. And those that usually go out and get data are able to be ignored as ‘acadmic’. The irony is that in their black and white world of right and wrong this is the worst kind of subjectivism.
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p>Even in conservative think-tanks, they don’t often characterize their work as ‘academic’. It’d be an interesting data point to compare so called liberal vs conservative think-tank fellows are actually associated with actual academia, and how strong those associations are/were.
johnd says
huh says
Hint: it was 2003.
tblade says
He’d just dismiss the links and insert his own reality into the discussion anyway.
tblade says
You can start with data showing that “Arrest[ing] gang members just for being a gang member, throw[ing] anyone caught with a gun in jail for the max, no paroles… same for drugs” is an effective long-term solution to people getting murdered.
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p>Then proceed to show us a link showing which tax brackets use the most services in the city of Boston. Make sure your link includes analysis on the people who commute daily from outside of the city and use city services and college kids who use city services 8 months per year but reside elsewhere.
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p>Also show us how being reactive and waiting until the crime is committed and then jailing people long-term is more “fiscally responsible” than proactively attacking the root of the problem and preventing the crime from occurring in the first place. “An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure” is an old cliche but many people think it is true when it comes to crime. Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske said that “It’s a lot cheaper to pay now for after-school programs than to pay later to put a kid in jail.” I take his word over JohnD’s any day. But I’ll take actual data and evidence over Gil and JohnD’s word every day.
johnk says
But in some respects I agree with some of what you are saying. It starts at home, nothing is foolproof but if you grow up in a nurturing household I would think the impact is dramatic. But in both sides of the aisle there is a consensus that education and programs do have a positive impact on reducing violence.
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p>This is what I am sick of, the tough guy BS lines about crime. This does nothing to reduce crime, they confuse being tough on criminals to being tough on crime. I am in favor of having effective programs that reduce crime. Sentencing hasn’t done it. If if you numbers that show a decrease in crime do to sentencing please let me know.
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p>I’m not a fan of Menino, and it’s obvious that their youth programs are ineffective. Maybe they have changed and it will take some time to see some results. But at this point we see nothing. Also, his banning bullets or guns press conferences make me cringe. Like that is going to stop anything. I’m not for throwing money at things, but if you are telling me that the schools in Dorchester are better than Newton, then you’re smoking something (but keep it under an ounce).
johnd says
I have had some posts recently with people telling me to move back into the city and give it a chance again. My post was saying that neither me nor most other people will move back until this type of shit gets fixed.
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p>Johnk, the solution to this problem ALL comes from home. This is an “institutional” family/cultural issue that continues from when I lived in Dorchester to this day. I mentioned the other day how Mattapan Square at 3:00AM looks like Times Square at midnight on New Years Eve. WHY? How many of the headlines we read about “another” shooting/stabbing in Dorchester/Roxbury happens at 3:15AM. As my Father use to say, “Nothing good happens after 1:00 in the morning… be home!” He was right. And do you know who you will see at midnight walking those streets… 10 year olds, 12 year old kids… WHERE ARE THE PARENTS???
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p>What effective programs do you say reduce crime?
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p>I did not say schools in Dorchester are better than Newton, quite the opposite. But my true point was the school doesn’t matter. The school building itself is immaterial and Newton High School (as well as many other older falling down high schools) produce tremendous students. I submit that if you switched the students from Dorchester High School and Newton High School for 4 years, the grades of the Newton kids going to Dot High would remain excellent and the Dot kids would continue to fail miserably. It’s not the teachers, not the funding, not the building… it’s the parents. Also, please explain to me why Asians, even in poor areas strive in most any school? Parents? I don’t have the data but it would be curious to know the success rate of students relative to cost/student, building age, teacher salary and other metrics.
huh says
please explain to me why Asians, even in poor areas strive in most any school?
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p>Did you forget about the Asian gang problem in DOT?
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p>What’s your take on this Dorchester Reporter article about Asian kids avoiding gangs through (gasp) after school basketball programs? Lies?
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p>
johnd says
shows Asian students are graduating at the highest rate for any race (2006 – 82.7% and 2007 – 80.9%) compared to whites in second place (2006 – 55.7% and 2007 – 54.2%). Does this mean anything to you huh? If I could along with the prevailing feelings on this page I would assume the Asian students get more funding, better schools, better teachers… oh ya and the Asian basketball thing you mentioned, that must be it… basketball.
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p>I played in all sorts of Dorchester sports programs and there were plenty of kids I knew who also played that were always in trouble with the law. If you think that these problems get solved by getting kids to play Pop Warner football, what happened with the Dorchester Eagles who got kicked out of the Pop Warner playoffs for starting a fight, kicked out of their hotel and suspended from league playoffs for a few years? By all means stick your head back where it was and let this problem continue in the city and we can all watch the news for the next Boston homicide any day now.
huh says
Thanks for the clarification. Not sure that it advances your argument, but I get what “life being better in the suburbs” is code for now.
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p>As to the DOT athletic programs — didn’t you just brag on your Catholic School education? If you were in private school, who paid for that?
johnd says
When the fuck did I say this was about BLACK people?
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p>You asked me to explain about my Asian prejudice concerning my remarks about HOW SMART THEY ARE. I believe my answer showing how superior their scoring/grades in BPS are answered it pretty good. How do you explain why Asians score so well in the BPS? Any thoughts or is your answer “huh”?
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p>Then you mentioned an article in the Reporter about how a sports program avoided gangs (bullshit) for kids and I responded with the story about another sports program which in fact exhibited violence AND a little gang mentality. So…
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p>Sorry of this data doesn’t line up with your left wing liberal agenda.
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p>Yes, I do brag about my catholic school education. It was far superior tot he public education available at the time. I believe I mentioned that even though my Father worked as a prison guard in Suffolk County at a pretty low wage, he saved up enough to send myself and my 3 siblings to Catholic elementary school and then all 4 of us went to different Catholic high schools in Boston (I went to Don Bosco HS). NO PUBLIC ASSISTANCE but paid all the same taxes as everyone else (a net savings for the city since there were 4 empty seats every year in the Boston Public Schools from my family not attending or getting bused).
tblade says
Why do bigots always cry when they get called out on their racially-tinged rhetoric? I know why: because they want all the benefits of propagating bigoted and outdated opinions on race without having to own the bigot label.
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p>This isn’t the first time someone here has suggested that you use racist language and harbor bigoted opinions. And huh is not the only one to see you in this light. Many people here see you as a bigot.
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p>You’ve been expressing veiled bigotry and anti-Semitic opinions since you began posting; it’s just veiled enough so that if anyone dares suggest that you might be a bigot you can claim “outrage” and claim the mantle of White victimhood that you’ve exploited since day one. The record of your participation here bears that out.
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p>So the question is this: Why do people like you always have to play the “White man can’t talk about race without being labeled a racist” card or the “Anyone who dares to suggest that I’m a racist is just playing the race card and his/her opinions aren’t valid” card? Is it a need to propagate White victimhood? Is it lack of self-awareness? Denial? Keen strategy learned from Limbaugh-type talking heads?
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p>If one doesn’t want to be called a bigot or a racist, there’s a simple solution. Don’t act like a bigot or a racist.
kbusch says
I think I said something similar a long time ago.
tblade says
lol.
johnd says
My remarks and comments are honest and raw with the occasional over the top slap to get some reaction. You can continue to call me whatever name you want and I’ll do the same. You are right about one thing (rare) in that people love to call me names. But this often the case when anyone discusses a touch subject. Democrats felt it in the last few years when they discussed withdrawing from Iraq and were called unpatriotic.
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p>I remember in college being lectured by my Sociology teacher (from Wellesley) telling me how horrible and racist white people were and how deplorable life was for black people… and I would argue with him about never even having stepped foot into Dorchester but acting like a fucking expert on urban life and how evil we all were. I was beat up numerous times by kids from the projects and did my share of beating them up too. I found a body (headless/handless/footless) when I was 10 years old, witnessed 3 separate shootings and saw 2 guys getting stabbed all before I was 13. Shopping on Blue Hill Ave came to a cashing halt when other “shoppers” started recognizing my Father as a prison guard and he was greeted as “Sir or Mr. X” by perfect strangers. No more shopping down that way. Growing up in Dorchester in the 70’s often left quite the stain on people about society. I at least can say I have experienced a lot of things I talk about.
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p>As for my racism… I have often believed I was one but have come to believe I am a culturalist which I define as someone who does not like or likes certain cultures. In my post above I have talked about Asians scoring well in school. Someone challenged this assertion and I replied with a report from the Boston Public School showing Asians scoring FAR better than blacks, hispanic AND whites. If “whites” were not included in this list I would have received remarks “See you are racists and you think blacks and hispanics are stupid”. But, Asians scored better than whites as well so does this mean I think whites are stupid too? Do I hate white people? Am I secretly yearning to become an Asian? OR am I simply stating a fact/datapoint about Asian students grades without any veiled bigotry? Those are the kinds of questions I ask and never get answers from BMG. What is it about Asians that casue their school grades to be so much better than any other ethnicity? Are they genetically different… or do they have a culture which gives heavy emphasis to education? Am I a bigot for asking questions like this?
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p>My “anti-Semitic” remarks? What are you smoking? I happen to support Israel both in the struggle against the Arab world and on continuing to become a shining example of how a country can start with nothing (sand) and build a strongly successful nation. As for Jews, the only recollection I have of making a remark was similar to my question about Asians above. I asked why are there so many Jews in medicine and law relative to their percentage of the general US population. How is that a bigoted remark? It’s a question which again nobody ever even tried to answer. And I have asked similar question about why are there such a high percentage of blacks in sports (basketball, football…) compared to the percent of blacks in the general population. Still no answers from such a learned group. And WHY is asking questions like of of these bigoted? I’m totally confused? Why is everyone afraid to comment on these questions?
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p>And I will not stop asking these questions or commenting on issues as I see fit due to concerns of being labeled anything by you or others on this blog.
tblade says
It’s truly awful and you didn’t deserve any of that.
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p>But that doesn’t change what you’ve said and how you’ve said it. Nor does it excuse it. You may not think that your words are bigoted and racist, but many here disagree.
johnd says
I’m not complaining of my upbringing but merely saying I am no a well-to-do who was raised in the “lilly white” burbs with no direct experience with what I speak about.
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p>I stand by everything I have ever written here (unless I’ve explicitly re-tracked anything). If my words and attitude offend you then I suggest you grow thicker skin. Obama keeps talking about being frank about our problems before we can fix them and that is exactly what I am doing and will continue to do. However only people like him can talk bluntly about “black” issues or criticize “blacks” for crime, fatherless families, drugs, education… and not be called a racist.
huh says
Easily one of the funniest defenses against bigotry I’ve ever seen.
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p>I’m not a bigot — I just hate black culture, gay culture, and Jewish culture.
kbusch says
I know that is a “touch” subject.
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p>Those of us who did (unlike you) read your voluminous, unedited, rambling comment, figured out that your professor (from Wellesley) probably said a number of things that were concrete, factual, and subject to substantiation.
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p>Conclusion: You took a course and all you got were the adjectives.
johnd says
Are you ridiculing me because I’m not smart (or as smart as you)? Maybe I have some issues and deserve help. Are there any well funded social programs that I should join for help? Maybe I should become a community organizer… the sky is the limit from there.
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p>Of course I read my posts, right after I hit the POST button.
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p>BTW, did you like PJ’s post about WBZ and WRKO? Does PJ need help (I didn’t see any of your sharp toothed comments or are they reserved for just me?).
kbusch says
a warning to be tolerant followed by robotic right-wing snark. Sarah Palin thought “community organizer” was just a gas too. Such inventive wit.
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p>I object not to your lack of intelligence but to your careless verbosity. Could I suggest that you read your posts before hitting the post button?
johnd says
I absolutely understand that people have differing opinions. I am the king of “let me hear your side of this”. Doesn’t mean I have to buy it but I’m all ears to hear what you think and why you think it. I don’t cut people off at the knees or try to intimidate them. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. You appear to be very smart and very clever with your wit but I’m sure you have weaknesses (beyond your ideological slant). I have “careless verbosity”. Get over it.
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p>It’s easy to be tolerant of easy shit. If my neighbor wants to of a differing faith… who cares or if someone wants to celebrate Kwanzaa, good for them. But when someone believes in something which is contrary to the core of your being then THAT takes “tolerance”. It doesn’t surprise me that the common notion that liberals are more tolerant then conservative is just that, a notion vs a truth. There are many aspects to my ideology that you find “intolerable” but you simply won’t admit it. I guess that’s one of your weaknesses. Now I’ll hit POST.
kbusch says
You understand that there are differing opinions; you just don’t understand them or remember them. That’s why you are so repetitious. Nothing sinks in.
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p>For example, I doubt you could reproduce the liberal response to the comment about how unpopular Congress’ approval ratings are, but your repeated that comment over and over throughout 2008.
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p>Question: What’s the use having a dialog with someone who doesn’t register?
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p>Answer: There is no use.
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p>This is not a matter of differing opinions. It is a matter of acting like an idiot and then complaining that you are treated like an idiot.
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p>If you actually cared about your opinions, you’d lose the careless verbosity quick.
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p>Since you don’t care about your opinions that much, I don’t either.
johnd says
I don’t understand things… I don’t remember things… I’m repetitious and nothing sinks in… I act like an idiot… I’m treated like an idiot… I have careless verbosity and I don’t care about my own opinions. Where do you work, suicide hotline? Hey maybe I’m suffering from a head injury from banging my head against the wall from reading my total 2008 taxes. Or as you intimated… I’m just stupid.
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p>I have been feeling bad about myself but I think you cheered me up. When I was growing up there was a girl in the neighborhood that “wasn’t all there”. Some of the kids would say things very similar to what you have said. They seemed to enjoy making fun of her but I thought they were jerks.
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p>I try not to repeat myself but find it necessary due to people being DEAF to what they don’t want to hear. Speaking of repeating themselves, I wish I could remember how many times you called me “obtuse” last year but as you said, I can’t remember things. And I know you aren’t the blog police (ex PJ) but I do appreciate the fact that you single me out for your venom while you “ignore” other posts displaying the same egregious KBusch violations. Or maybe nobody else has repeated themselves (read anything about Rick Warren, prop 8, LGBT or Sal DiMasi on this site… talk about repeating themselves).
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p>I know you won’t be replying anymore to my comments and I wish you well (sincerely). I’m sure there will be others who will reply in a condescending, insulting yet eloquent manner so it will almost feel like you’re still there.
huh says
He regularly gets called on the carpet for being over the top. Do you even bother to fact check before posting?
johnd says
kbusch says
I had nothing to add to the roasting of PJ. Also as I’ve said before, I’m not police authority who reviews every comment or diary.
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p>Question: What is the use of talking with you if nothing registers?
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p>Answer: There is no use?
johnd says
There is no use!
huh says
KBusch, it’s long past time to stop feeding the troll.
johnd says
Open minds do not exist here so the answers are the same answers before the post started.
huh says
Taking your points in reverse order:
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p>1) My comment wasn’t about your pride in your Catholic education, it’s about your repeated claim IN THIS DISCUSSION that by going to Catholic School you were saving the city money. You then went on to talk about a) taking city school buses and b) participating in city funded sports. And yet…
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p>2) We’re talking about gangs in Dorchester. You provided a red herring about Aisans doing better in school. I responded with an article about the Asian gang problem in Dorchester. You responded with statistics on Asians and Whites doing better in Boston in general. Not in Dorchester. You dismissed the rest of my evidence as “bullshit” and then went on to ramble (incorrectly) about an incident involving BLACK STUDENTS. So, yes, I did find your comments here bigoted.
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p>3) tblade and kbusch have already said plenty on the subject of your endless, self-proclaimed, victimhood. I’ll just second kbusch’s observation that there’s more to participating in a discussion than a posting a bunch of ill-thought out deliberately offensive opinions, then crying foul when people call you on it.
johnd says
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p>2. Are you seriously going to try to tell me Asians do NO BETTER than all other ethnicities in school. Are you for real? Check the Valedictorian ethnicity at most schools and see how many Asians are selected relative to the general population. Doesn’t mean “every” Asian is a genius or some Asians won’t get into crime. Hell, there are even “some” poor Republicans so no group is completely homogenous in every aspect. Many people reading this post will say “I had 2 Asians in my class and they were both 4.0 students with perfect attendance”.
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p>BTW, why is my link which comprehensively shows Asian’s overwhelming superiority in school a “red herring” while your totally subjective “feel good” article from the Dorchester Reporter about an Asian sports team preventing them from getting into gang violence is “evidence”? Take off your liberal lenses for a minute and try to be objective. Also your article about Asians is evidence and my article about a football team is bigotry. So is it bigotry if you introduce race with negative connotations only?
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p>As for victimhood, I disagree again. You know in my definition, a victim is always asking for help. I don’t need anyone’s help. I made it out of Dorchester, was the first in my family’s history to go to college, never mind my Master’s degree, second house on the cape, never been unemployed, 5 great kids, just had successful heart surgery 8 days ago… I am not a victim of anything! People claiming “victimhood” always want help via a job they don’t deserve, money they never worked for, promotions based on things other than performance… I’ll complain about things which I think are wrong, especially as they relate to me but even when they don’t but I will not claim to be a victim, that’s the cowardly way out of things when people can’t or won’t help themselves.
christopher says
Move out – very few things are more easily said than done as this. You can’t just decide one day to move; that takes a lot of planning, resources, etc. Besides, people have every right to want to make their own hometown/neighborhood better.
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p>Arrest for just being in a gang – as good as this sounds there’s that pesky freedom of association thing. You do have to be able to charge an actual crime.
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p>Bottom line – things cost money, and while I’m in favor of reducing waste you do need cops on the beat AND programs for these kids who are not as fortunate as some of us relative to family situations. Are there any studies out there showing the correlation between having these programs and a reduction in crime in the area?
johnd says
I did it. My father was a prison guard (not a very high salary) and raised myself and 3 other siblings in Dorchester. We all went to Catholic High Schools on Boston and all moved out of Dorchester to suburbs. Many of our friends did the same. White flight showed people of less than average needs can do it if they really want to get out. People have had plenty of time to plan any move out of the city. I know people have the right to live anywhere but my suggestion was move out for safety reasons.
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p>Cops have been walking the beat since I was a kid and these useless programs have been going on since I was a kid. Nothing has changed. Anything that really works (like medicine to sick people) would not be stopped. The city officials know in their heart that these things are nothing but window dressing to appease the community. To make it look like they care. Let’s build some skating rinks in Roxbury, turn lights on at basketball courts all night long… all things to make it look like they are working on the problem but they know they won’t work. How about they have dances or maybe roller skating nights in the city… can’t do that since they KNOW people will get shot or stabbed a those kind of events.
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p>Money won’t fix the problem and I haven’t heard anything here that will.
christopher says
…is you’re still better off than many people. I really don’t think you realize how dire some situations are. It also concerns me a bit that you refer to the phenomenon as “white flight” almost approvingly, as if a racial aspect to all this is justified. There are a lot of things I’m sure I’m in a position to do as well, but know that other people cannot. Remember the two basic instincts in life – fight or flight. While you advocate the latter, I would suggest a little more of the former. Of course I don’t mean in the literal violent sense, but to stand up and advocate for yourself and your neighbors; make your community better, bring in programs that are necessary and workable. Otherwise, there will always be people left behind stuck in the depressing notion that nothing can or will ever change. Hopelessness leads to gang formation because people want to belong and be protected and feel they are not getting that from their community and can’t get it from what we would consider a family. I still want to see a study of whether these programs work. Also, nobody ever said prevention and enforcement were mutually exclusive, though I would certainly prefer to prevent crime from occuring in this first place.
mr-lynne says
… about the abilities of many, but drawn from an unacceptably small and anecdotal sample.
johnd says
tblade says
…like recklessly expanding government to imprison more of our citizens for longer periods of time. So much for “small government”.
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p>As for “Don’t raise taxes since the people in Boston who pay the most taxes are the ones who use the least services” – you just made that up, didn’t you?
johnd says
I would go through the work of showing what people pay the most taxes and then what people use the most public services but I would accomplish nothing in proving this to you. Here’s just a quick thought. If every child in the city of Boston went to public schools how much more would they have to spend since so many people (of higher incomes who actually pay taxes) send their kids to Catholic/private schools? How much money is spent on Boston Public Housing for people who pay ZERO taxes vs. higher income people who actually pay taxes? I’m not debating the merit of this happening but please don’t try to insinuate that the people paying the most taxes in Boston are using more of the services that those taxes pay for… they use far less.
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p>As for prisons, since we can’t use the death penalty, what do you propose? Do we take rapists and send them home with an electronic bracelet? Do we take gang bangers and send them home to ride MBTA buses where they can stab other kids to death? Domestic violence or wife beaters can go back home since we have no more prison space… “Hi honey, I’m home!”. What the fuck? Don’t confuse people who advocate less government spending or smaller government with people who advocate no government. Law and order should be our #1 spending priority, before any other budget item.
tblade says
Just because I don’t have the hubris to think I have all the answers doesn’t mean that I can’t recognize your “solution” as the continuation of failed policy.
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p>We’ve tried the more prisons/longer sentences for how many years hear in the US? Still, it’s not working. But yet the party of “fiscal responsibility” and “limited government” wants to pour money into a wasteful idea, thus expanding government. Fascinating.
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p>If were going to use anecdotal evidence as the only support for our arguments, most of the people I know in Boston that send their kids to Catholic schools are in lower income brackets. And the only two people I know who send their kids to private schools were afforded scholarships.
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p>
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p>That’s right. You’d accomplish nothing because you just made it up. Until I see actual evidence, as far as I’m concerned, this is a lie.
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p>I don’t know that lower income people and people who don’t own businesses don’t use the roads more, the public health commission, the police and fire departments, EMS, archives and records, the licensing board, the zoning board, inspectional services, the elections board, and the parks and recreation department. You just assume that you are correct because you need to target poor people in order for your ideology and arguments to be correct, facts be damned.
kbusch says
Welcome to Limbaughian Epistemology 101: How do we know what is true or not?
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p>Academic studies
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p>Journalism
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p>Truth. Anything a conservative thinks is common sense must be true. Only pointy-headed misguided liberals as portrayed in Mallard Fillmore would disagree with the facts as discovered by the unerring common sense of conservatives.
tblade says
The City of Boston spends over $2,000,000 per year on bussing costs to transport students of private and parochial schools.
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p>http://www.boston.com/news/loc…
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p>Another service to add to my list above.
johnd says
Boston should be happy to pay $2M for transporting these 363 children to private schools. What would the alternative cots be to transport AND educate the 12,200 students who go to private schools and NOT public schools. If it costs $2M for 363 maybe it would cost $67M for all 12,200. Plus if the Boston School budget is $846M for 56,000 students ($15K/student) then maybe those other 12,200 would cost taxpayers another $18.3M. Sounds like the city should be kissing their butts and sending thank you notes.
tblade says
Your point was that people who pay more taxes use fewer services, not that children attending private and parochial schools save the city money. Try and stay on track here.
johnd says
Who pays more taxes… rich people or pooh people? My brother is a Boston Fire Fighter and I pay more taxes than he makes. Now I have often heard complaints about the unfairness of private schools and how they are not accessible to poor people so who attends private schools poor kids or richer kids? Now maybe you are on to something and mainly poor kids go to private schools and rich kids are going to Boston Public Schools FOR FREE! So maybe we should start charging for public school and issue vouchers to kids going to private school?
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p>tblade, I’m done with this one. If you want to believe that people living in the better areas of Boston who make more money (and pay more taxes) are getting more city services (police patrols, fires extinguished, ambulance calls, youth programs, subsidized (free) housing, free oil/heat/electricity, public schools, college tuition/grants/aid… then go ahead and you can believe I’m wrong and vice versa. Again, I wasn’t debating “why” this is true, just that is was true.
tblade says
…since I’ve seen no evidence either way. You made the claim; grow a pair of balls and support your claim instead of taking the easy way out.
johnd says
FYI… there is a line on your MA state tax returns (I assume you have a job) where you can MORE taxes than required. I would hope that anyone who advocates spending more money of these programs would pay more money so that government could keep them going. Now who needs to grow some balls?
tblade says
…about people who want to expand prisons.
johnd says
kbusch says
There are two kinds of people:
That’s all there is to it: good people, bad people.
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p>Democrats keep wanting to give money to bad people. Republicans don’t. Democrats are foolish. Republicans are wise.
I’m tired of this narrative. I’m tired of seeing it applied mindlessly. It’s morally abhorrent.
johnd says
I know… all of the people disagreeing with me can move to Dorchester or Roxbury, if they don’t already live there and walk the walk. Spend your money at local businesses, donate your time in midnight gimp classes, send your kids to public schools (teach them how fight though and support them later since they won’t learn shit), go out for a pizza at 2:00 on Blue Hill Ave, project “friendliness” while you walk on a sidewalk towards a group of approaching hooded men on a dark street, be at ease with the thoughts of your teenage daughter walking the streets of the neighborhood and never ever snitch on your peeps even when they are robbing the apartment next door.
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p>As for your Republican vs. Democrat comment… I think we all have the same goal here… Republican’s money. We want to keep it and you want to have it!
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p>Why can’t anyone be critical of a culture which is hurting so many people?
kbusch says
If you want to argue with the straw men in your head, may I suggest purchasing a dairy and filling it with your refutations.
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p>I will not answer your comment because it was not, in fact, an answer to my comment.
johnd says
Go back to your reading and watch as the 2009 Boston homicide rate starts it’s journey upward.
kbusch says
You are only willing to tell us your prejudices. You are not part of finding a solution to anything other than to the problem, “How do I vent my feelings about having to move out of Dorchester?” That last problem you have solved. As to the people the Boston, not a one is helped by an additional right-wing rant.
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p>The web is already full of right-wing rants. If they really did help, there wouldn’t even be spitting on the sidewalk.
johnd says
christopher says
You’ve mentioned parents several times, and while that is laudible we fall into the trap of the imperfect world. Myself and my circle of friends were fortunate to have good parents, and it sounds like you did as well. However I substitute teach in a suburb and have heard more than my share of teachers griping about parents in the lunch room. Do we require parenting classes? I really don’t know. Like it or not society has to step in because as the African proverb says (and no, this wasn’t something Hillary Clinton pulled out of her left sleeve for a book title), “It takes a village to raise a child.” So yes, step in, volunteer if you can (including at your local public school rather than griping about it). There are plenty of great public schools in this country and they educate 90% of our children so let’s make them the best they can be. This stuff isn’t free so we will be looking for taxpayer money.
kbusch says
I had an interesting exchange a while back with CentralMassDad on this, too. Lakoff posits that liberals are much more likely to see problems as having systemic causes; conservatives tend to look for individual responsibility. Thus conservatives are happy to end the story with the individual responsibilities of all those bad parents. For liberals, that’s just the beginning of defining the problem in the first place.*
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p>By that model of liberal and conservative thought, the motto, “It takes a village,” would seem just as ridiculous to conservatives as it seems self-evident to liberals.
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p>Possibly the right wing ranting I complained about earlier is the direct result of this. Generally, those guys would like to set up a system of punishments in order to elicit correct behavior. Sometimes punishment consists in doing nothing, i.e., allowing people to sink into lives of poverty and medically unpleasant misery. Ranting is a form of yelling at them, berating other people from the comfort of one’s computer screen. This must be the sense, then, in which our diarist and others might regard such rants as productive. They are contributing to an environment of disincentive.
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p>Irrational I know, but we anthropologists must record what we find.
* CMD pointed out cases in which conservatives think more systemically than liberals. Foremost is economics, but also traditional institutions.
mr-lynne says
… out there to address crime. It is unlikely to get much conservative help because it is a systemic solution not a prescriptive one. It is also political suicide, because the lizard brain always seems to trump and ‘soft on crime’ is a charge that can always be brought up to activate the lizard brain of voters.
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p>Ed Brayton (emphasis mine):
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p>
kbusch says
(We’re going to torture the right margin and perhaps someone should hit carriage return.)
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p>I suspect that the violent — non-violent distinction is less important that the sociopath — non-sociopath distinction. Potentially, many non-violent offenders can never be successfully rehabilitated and some violent offenders can be.
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p>Prison reform has to be extremely shrewd, or rehabilitation programs have to be run by excellent professionals who monitor and audit each others’ work. Your average sociopath is so very manipulative that I expect every professional to be conned multiple times in his or her career.
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p>Here’s an area where one wants government to work awesomely well, but where the politics just introduce distractions.
huh says
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p>Not just ThoughtCrime (e.g. arrest for membership in an organization), but ThoughtPolice enlisting the citizenry to aid in constant surveillance of each other. Perhaps forced enrollment in the Young Pioneers would be a better solution to youth crime than after school programs?
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p>In real life, the Stasi had one of the largest networks of civilian informants in history. It somehow didn’t stop the GDR from being a bastion of crime, drugs, and graffiti.
johnd says
An AP article published in the Globe today said the murder rate is down in the many large US cities
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p>Maybe we should be looking at how some cities have done this and seeing if their method can be employed in Boston.
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p>Milwaukee stood out as a large city making strides…
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p>
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p>Although when they talked about how Milwaukee was doing this, I didn’t see any mention of late night basketball games or having gang members come off the streets and watch reruns of The Lion King while they drank diet-coke and ate cookies.
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p>
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p>Gang violence seems to continue to be the source of most violent crime and murders but people here can continue to defend gang member’s rights.
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p>Does anyone know if there is a correlation between murder rate and police/citizen density? Spend money on cops not youth programs.
midge says
Why can’t money be spent on both law enforcement and community-based youth programs doing effective youth violence prevention work?
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p>JohnD are you familiar with Menino’s work in the early ’90s? Coined many names, Operation Ceasefire, Boston Miracle, Boston Model….youth violence was cut by 80% when stakeholders from across city agencies, churches, youth programs, academics, came together to reduce youth and street violence.
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p>But then they cut the funding and we’ve seen a rise (though the article you just quoted noted that Boston had seen fewer murders in 2008 than 2007).
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p>Not giving props specifically to Menino, but I think that coordinated efforts and collaborations are necessary, not just stocking the streets with cops- doesn’t work.
johnd says
In a bountiful financial times maybe both would be good and could work in concert. The initial post I made here pointed out the headline of the death of the poor kid riding the bus AND the rumor of 200 Police being laid off. I’m saying if there is only X dollars to spend then use it for feet on the street vs. the hooky youth programs I personally engaged in and were a waste of time. The usual beneficiaries of those youth programs are the “good” kids who would probably stay out of trouble anyway.
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p>And I really do have issue with any proof of those programs working since it would fly directly in the face of success to have these programs cut. When a program of any sort is successful it becomes very difficult to cut it (unless it is a program about stuff nobody or very few people care about or just plain costs too much money). If we had youth programs and crime/murder came way down and then we cut the programs and crime/murder went straight up… then who in their right mind wouldn’t reinstate those programs? I would support something like that if you could show a clear cause/effect vs serendipity.
midge says
I work in this field. But when funding cuts come around, effective youth programs have to also cut back, and then cannot take on as many youth to their programs. There are waiting lists for almost all summer programs in Boston- from the elementary summer camps to the Mayor’s Summer Youth Fund program.
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p>This is very personal to me and when we hear about another youth shot or involved in an incident, it is very difficult to keep on moving forward in this field, but we have to. Some of the victims have been innocent to their surroundings and been “in the wrong place at the wrong time,” such as on their way home from basketball practice, school, on their way to keep-the-peace programs. We have to continue to fund these programs because the family members need this support and the younger generation needs to continue to learn and grow and see new opportunities.
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p>I’m sorry that you think the prgrams you participated in were ineffective, but many youth are very excited about the opportunities they see at community organizations.
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p>I do not think a police state will work.
johnd says
There are many feel good programs out there and I think many, maybe the vast majority of them do a great job of helping people. I am not debating whether the city sponsoring a “take the kid to Fenway for a Red Sox game” is a good thing or something the kids will never be able to do on their own (I went on a few of these). Who could deny that that type of thing has huge merit? What I am debating is whether that event will somehow prevent a kid from getting into drugs or becoming a gang member…
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p>Thank you for your dedication to working in this area. When I was a kid participating in these programs, many of the workers were super people and became friends for the rest of my childhood. I’m sure it’s a tough job with great rewards but lots of angst. I didn’t say the programs I participated in were ineffective nor are the ones today, just that they don’t in any measurable number prevent crime or kids from becoming criminals. Will “any” kids be effective… of course, but not that many IMO.
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p>I think people confuse the great feeling you get by helping this way with it having some measurable effect. I work a lot with giving food to churches and food pantries. I feel great when I do this and I wish more people contributed and I get bummed when we can’t provide more to hungry families. Do I think all these food efforts are reducing crime… nope. Some people may believe it but that doesn’t make it true.
tblade says
…for drugs and guns? And for arresting people who look like they might be gang members? I must have missed that part.
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p>The Milwaukee PD press release also credits “Ongoing partnerships with community groups who mentor our youth on a daily basis.” JohnD, you should tell the MPD that there plan is “a bunch of shit” because it includes youth social programs.
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p>
hubspoke says
is a good thing. I also work in this field and there’s no doubt in my mind that offering accessible programs to kids in poor neighborhoods provides them with useful skills and knowledge or healthy recreation and also physically keeps them busy for hours doing something positive, away from the dangers and temptations of the streets. It is hard to PROVE cause and effect here, i.e. to show that participation in a program caused a kid to NOT do something illegal or dangerous. I think most of us who work in these areas know intuitively as well as from observation that kids involved in basketball or dance or learning to make videos or who are getting extra tutoring or doing something else at a community center are safer and much less likely to get into trouble.
johnd says
I do agree with you that of course there will be some “good” to come out of youth programs but not on a scale that I would call successful. I guess my point is like a drug study where a new drug cures 1 out of 100 people and the FDA says this drug is a failure. I think success has o have a threshold so we can decide to either approve the dug or keep working on a better one.
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p>But thanks for your work since I benefited from exactly the programs you work in. Let’s also be honest and say these programs (vast majority run during the day) are for entertaining kids and not keeping them from crime).
midge says
The vast majority ARE NOT for entertaining kids. I think you need to revisit the place you grew up and take a tour of effective programs. Then, scoot over to Roxbury and JP, then to East Boston, after that.
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p>It is insulting to hear you say that the work we do is for entertaining and not for violence prevention. The work I do is multi-faceted, providing supports for academics, college preparation, career exposure, community organizing and civic engagement, and more for teens, community youth, and their families (including parents).
johnd says
Sorry if I offended you. I will try to make some time on my next visit to check out a standard youth program. I was just surfing http://www.bostonyouthzone.com for events in Dorchester but didn’t see any. Where is a good site for me to see what type of activities are happening in Dorchester in January?
midge says
It’s about sustainable long-term and effective programming. Not an event here and an event there. That’s inconsistent and not very productive.
johnd says
And you also said…
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p>
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p>And I want to do that but need some guidance on where/when to go revisit. Any help?
midge says
Check out:
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p>Hyde Square Task Force
Teen Empowerment
Spontaneous Celebrations
Sociedad Latina
Zumix
Earthworks
Bikes Not Bombs
Franklin Park Coalition
T Riders Union
East Boston Ecumenical Community Council
Family Services of Greater Boston
Roca
Chelsea Collaborative
Youth Programs at the following health centers:
Dimock
Martha Elliot
Southern Jamaica Plain
Whittier
& Boston Public Health Commission
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p>That should keep you busy for a little while.
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p>Some websites are better than others, but all of the above have decent youth programs in addition to the Ys, Boys & Girls Clubs, Community Centers, etc. throughout the city.
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p>The Boston Youth Zone website you linked to isn’t updated at all, but I also imagine it is not highly utilized by youth.
johnd says
kbusch says
Some of us are here for dialog.
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p>Some of us are here to be entertained by repeating the same things over and over to get a rise.
johnd says
Did you go see it? I would also recommend Ann Coulter’s new book, “Guilty”. or Fleeced by Dick Morris or even #4 NYT best seller A BOLD FRESH PIECE OF HUMANITY, by Bill O’Reilly.
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p>I also agree with your observations about being entertained by the same things over and over. How many posts were there about Rick Warren, Prop 8, Sal, Bush bashing… I mean talk about beating dead horses.
johnd says
But I don’t like the balloons used to show where the homicide occured. A more indicative map would be a straight overhead map with dots which would be more intuitive. The balloons are so densely grouped it’s hard to show the clustering properly.
huh says
You can’t possibly put as little thought into conversations in real life as you do here. Can you?
johnd says
Thanks huh and I hope 2009 turns out to be a great year for you.
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p>Did you check out the pandora.com post I left a few days ago?
huh says
And yes, I’ve been using pandora for a year or so now. It can be quite fun, especially with an iPhone.
johnd says
See, first not knowing how to use google maps and now a YEAR behind on Pandora plus all my ideology baggage… I’m a mess.
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p>I did check the balloons with the name/address of he victim and one of them was 3 blocks from my Mother’s house.