Trump is selling a seductive fairy tale of an America that wins all its wars, builds all its things, and looks the way it did when your parents were growing up. This fantasy is compelling next to a government incapable of offering actual solutions that can provide attainable hope for the future.
For every new condo tower in Metro Boston there are mill towns, gateway cities and fisheries left behind and discarded. The people there feel discarded too, and the false hope of restoring glory days is easier to latch onto than platitudes that no longer resonate, promises voters know won’t be kept, and programs that haven’t worked. We need something new. It isn’t Trump, but it ain’t “the establishment” either.
Andrei Radulescu-Banu says
Name it what you will, but the Trumpenproletariat has been badly hurt by globalization and by Wall St capitalism. And what do we Democrats do, instead of sending Bernie Sanders to the general election, we nominate the founder of the Clinton Global Initiative who is also a prolific Wall St for-fee speaker.
What could go wrong?
fredrichlariccia says
Fred Rich LaRiccia
jconway says
I’ve always said I will vote for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in the general. Embedded in that statement is a profound belief in the character, cause, and consistency of Sanders and a reality based recognition that Hillary is insurmountable on her path to the nomination and far more qualified to be our president.
I actually have talked to many Bernie supporters who feel the same way, that this is a fun and inspiring cause and when it ends, as these kinds of campaigns always do, I suspect it’ll be easier for us to vote for Clinton having had the opportunity to express ourselves in a competitive primary.
centralmassdad says
And are in a bit of a sulk. A facebook friend yesterday shared some shite about how Clinton really is exactly the same as Trump Cruz and Rubio. It will be on HRC, as it always is on the winner of a nomination battle, to find a way to make nice. They’ll come around.
jconway says
It’s why she hasn’t really gone for the jugular, since she is betting they will come around once she’s the nominee. This contest has been incredibly civil compared to the Obama/Clinton slug fest and I really do feel the Sanderistas and Clintonian partisans doth protest too much.
Al says
when faced with the loss of the nomination by HRC to Barack Obama, swore to support John McCain rather than Obama.
Jasiu says
… for the most part when he made his VP pick. At least that’s what I saw in my little slice of the universe.
I’m sure Trump could be just as effective in picking a VP to unite the Democrats.
JimC says
Did any of them actually do it? I well remember the PUMA moment (“Party unity my ass,” for those who forgot), but I always assumed it was overstated. Just curious, did these people stay bitter and really vote for McCain?
McCain himself, it has been reported, did not vote for Bush in 2000. But he had WAY more reason to be bitter in 2000 than any HRC voter did in 2008.
Christopher says
Some thought picking a woman, any woman, as his running mate would peel away some who wanted a woman on the ticket.
petr says
…It’s not a fairy tale. It’s not fantasy. It’s a pretty close approximation to how America once truly was when our parents were growing up. And it’s actually not far off from where we are now with a greater glare to our sins than previous and a growing awareness of what those sins have gotten and cost. What Trump is selling is a cure for the discomfort white people feel for having past sins constantly put before them. In the death of white hegemony we are stuck in a continuous and elastic loop of collisions between the anger at it and the denial of it… Trump combines these stages in the active collision of the fever dreams of Col Jack D. Ripper ( The communists sapped our precious bodily fluids ) and the second coming of George Wallace (who lamented that the American death spiral began at the moment of integration.) It’s nakedly racist, vividly hostile and viciously wrong exactly and precisely because it is anger at and denial of the real situation. And Trump, in the true spirit of a snake-oil salesmen who pissed into a bottle, mixed it with dirt and ink, and sold is a cure-all, is just bottling his own rage and denial and selling that.
The danger of a Trump presidency is not that Donald Trump is wrong in deliberation or idealogically too disciplined to govern the entirety of the populace. The danger is that Donald Trump, in and of himself is ungovernable; He’s not in control of the campaign and his rhetoric reflects multiple outwards loci that not even he truly understands. He is completely lacking in self-discipline, regard for polity and even rational motivation. And the people who keep voting for him have had this pointed out to them again and again… and they double down. A President Trump will not even be in control of himself and so the entire United States will be at the ungovernable whims of a man purely reacting exactly as the GOP is presently at the ungovernable whims of an intensely reactive base.
We don’t need anything ‘new.’ We need to confront the past. You think the Trumpenproletariat feel so much more righteously angrier than the vast majority of all the people who ever lived because they ‘feel discarded’??’ They are angry because they’ve been fed anger over and over by a long line of intellectually diffuse people, of which Trump is only the latest, who parrots back to them the false notion that “You alone had something great. They took it away. I’m going to give it back.”
Once upon a time people like MLK Jr, along with LBJ and RFK (though the latter two hated each other intensely, kinda interesting that…), were united in saying, simply, “we all can have something great.” That was the goal. That was the dream. People who didn’t want to share it turned that dream on its head and made it about taking and loss. That’s the terms they’ve set and that’s the terms which you have accepted.
jconway says
I think it’s the height of limosiene liberalism and cultural elitism to dismiss them as racist rubes whose real pain and suffering isn’t worth addressing.
Both parties promised them that globalization, trade, neoliberalism, and new technology would reap an endless bounty that a significant minority of forgotten Americans have failed to receive. If we include people of color who aren’t the demo Trump appeals to, then it might be a majority of Americans screwed by the status quo.
LBJ and RFK went to coal country, rode in mineshaft elevators and directly addressed rural white poverty. Has any Democrat bothered to do that since? MLK transitioned from a campaign of racial justice to a multiracial “poor people’s campaign” of social and economic justice at the time he was killed.
That vision is profoundly more inspiring than the revanchist reactionary racism of Trump, but his fairy tale is an easier sell than the web of complex globalization mitigation initiatives like ACA that market friendly Democrats have consistently offered in their last two presidencies. The irony is, I know the Hillary who called out Sen. Brooke and organized for McGovern is still lurking under her many layers of compromises and triangulation, I just wish she could come out and be that fighter already. Sanders isn’t ready for the prime time of a general election, being a world leader, or tangling with a hyperpartisan far right Congress. But boy are he and Trump reading the electorate a lot better than her.
merrimackguy says
Are you advocating protectionist policies?
That’s clearly one of Trump’s plans and one where he probably has the greatest conflict with the Republican elites.
jconway says
I am not advocating closing the border to people on the basis of their faith, race, or ethnicity. Since I am not a racist. So that is the #1 issue where I could never vote for Trump, even if he is correct to attack the Paul Ryan agenda on trade, tax cuts, and entitlement programs.
Clinton and Sanders oppose the TPP to stop the bleeding. That said, realistically, it is a fairly tale to expect the 1950s to come back, either culturally or economically. And the latter is a fantasy attractive even for someone on the left like Sanders.
The truth is, automation has killed far more factory jobs than free trade, though failing to address this displacement when it was a short term problem has created a far more pernicious long term problem. Especially for the communities left behind be it Detroit or Akron nationally, and places like Springfield and Lawrence locally. No Politician has done a great job pointing out the collective action problem that led to this point, but how do we dig ourselves out?
merrimackguy says
I think you correctly identify the problem.
Technology (not just automation with factory jobs- for example every Kindle download is a book not printed, warehoused, or delivered) has been the main culprit for lost jobs. It’s not offshoring/trade agreements, Wall Street enforced consolidation, or CEO greed, though I’m sure they total a small percentage of it.
So Trump says
That’s Democrat talk, not Republican, which is why I think he’s been appealing to disparate parts of the electorate.
I just want to add I tried to buy a Honda Civic in 1983 when they had import restrictions on Japanese cars, and it did drive the price way up, so much so that I ended buy a Renault, which was the worst car I’ve ever owned.
nopolitician says
In some cases, protectionism is warranted, particularly with China, which subsidizes many industries, which places huge demands on entrants into their markets which eventually lead to transfers of technology, and which has both labor and environmental laws that are far, far, far weaker than ours.
In many cases “free trade” with China is like betting on the Patriots vs. the Browns with no points. It was never a good deal for the US population; it primarily benefits multinational corporations, their executives, their financiers, and their owners.
We need to change the rules of the game while we still can.
merrimackguy says
How do you determine what’s fair?
What industries? How about services? All these call center countries I bet have an imbalance.
It theory it makes sense to have rules (and we do), but in practice it’s much harder.
Also note “benefits owners” is typically how business works.
An easier way than to make things less complicated would be just to give everyone money.
nopolitician says
I agree that giving people money would be the easiest, but it is politically impossible. We currently argue that something like $750 per month in welfare is “living large on the taxpayer”, and this number hasn’t gone up in two decades.
It would be more realistic to employ more people in this country and pay for that with increased prices of goods and services. When we used to do that, most people were satisfied.
merrimackguy says
Now it’s 22% and it’s much easier to move both goods and services around the globe. I’m only suggesting that putting funnels on some of those in order to make them scarcer, and therefore drive up their prices, to increase the wages of the workers that perform or make them, is tricky business.
Ever thought about restricting immigration instead? I’ve been temping and every company I’ve been at seems to be loaded with Asians and South Asians doing IT work. It we had just kept them out, then the wages of IT workers would be higher……
Christopher says
….by making wages higher. I don’t want to keep people out. I want to set a livable minimum and grant immunity to anyone undocumented who comes forward to rat out their employer for paying anything less. This can be done with negligible impact on the consumer cost of goods and services.
merrimackguy says
That’s my point. Why bother with all the regulatory infrastructure.
Make wages higher. That’s a great idea. As I said earlier just give people money. It’s the simplest and most cost effective way to make people better off and won’t raise the cost of goods and services.
scott12mass says
” You make wages higher…by making wages higher.
As I said earlier just give people money. It’s the simplest and most cost effective way to make people better off and won’t raise the cost of goods and services.”
Below in this thread Tom is worried about the control of society by people who don’t have enough scientific knowledge to understand climate change, maybe throw in some economics too.
Christopher says
…a good number of economists agree with me that raising wages even by fiat makes the economy work better for everyone. It creates more demand which in turn creates jobs. I stand by my comment.
stomv says
Seems to me that Senator Byrd rode those mineshaft elevators before RFK did, and continued to ride them all the way until June 28, 2010.
jconway says
And Byrd’s favorite son campaign in 76′ doesn’t count. I also wouldn’t cite a Dixiecrat who carried King Coal’s water as the ideal Democrat for this mission, as much as I respected his latter day liberalism on constitutional issues and foreign policy, his was a tradition we can’t go back to nor should we.
merrimackguy says
There’s not enough pork to go around these days.
stomv says
And most rural white poverty has nothing to do with mines in coal country.
jconway says
My point was those areas, be it farm country, coal country, or rust belt factories were traditional stopping grounds for Democratic candidates for generations. It was the farmer labor party everywhere, not just in the upper Midwest, where DFL is officially the name. Now that economy is gone and those days are gone, but we gotta win those folks back with a better plan instead of writing them off.
petr says
And you’d be right in your rebuke, if such dismissal, under such terms, was what I wrote. Alas, for you, I did not.
It’s interesting that you use a limousine illustration as that sorta implies somebody is in the drivers seat: and not just any old shmoe with little more than a drivers license and a pulse, but a professional, often uniformed, alert and courteous, trained in mechanics, navigation and knowledgeable about all the rules of the road.
My point is that there is no such person driving the GOP. They are all in the back of a limo that is not moving, and in fact is broken down, heatedly convincing each other that the car is doing 120mph on the highway about to crash and kill them all AND that the fault for all this lies in the other limo, the one with the liberals innit.
I’m not ‘dismissing them’. I’m the guy who wants to walk up to the car, knock on the window and say ‘you guys need me to call you a tow truck?” This would force them to confront the reality of their situation… and they’d probably feel pretty shamefaced once having done so, but it has to be done.
TheBestDefense says
This is the best post on BMG in a long time.
edgarthearmenian says
to this day is still maligned, by the Soviet elites and the “New Russians.” Don’t preach to me about racism when you are reflecting such contempt for others.
centralmassdad says
Jconway has argued here for years and years that a key failing of the Democratic Party for many decades now is exactly that sort of cultural contempt. These folks have been lost to the Dems for a generation or more. Yet they are needed, which results in many awkward attempts by Democratic candidates to “connect” at transparently staged hunting or NASCAR events. Dems who can cross that abyss are rare, and there have been none better than President Clinton.
At the same time, Sanders seems to be appealing to these folks on more substantiv grounds, which is interesting, but which also seems to turn off some other parts of the existing national coalition.
Jasiu says
I think a big part of the appeal of The Donald is that a lot of people have felt for years that some (establishment) politicians need to hear certain things (or put another way, “be put in their place”) and Trump is actually doing that. People are living vicariously through him. It looks very rude when he interrupts another candidate in a debate saying, “WRONG!”, but who hasn’t said that to the TV during a debate?
It doesn’t matter that he isn’t a viable alternative. He is doing something a lot of people have been waiting for.
SomervilleTom says
I agree.
The scary part is that a lot of people also think they want a President who does that. I fear that much of America is unable to distinguish TV — where Donald Trump yells “WRONG” at the entire Muslim world, the studio audience claps and cheers, and then an announcer says “We’ll be back after this brief intermission” — from the real world, where ISIS recruitment increases ten-fold overnight.
Too many voters fail to realize how much dull, boring, mind-numblingly tedious work is required to make even the simplest change in government police become reality. Too many voters believe that all they need to do is elect a candidate who says he or she agrees with them, and forget that such agreement is meaningless until reflected in government policy that is actually enforced.
There are a LOT of very sincere people who believe that because they buy milk from Trader Joes with “Organic” on the label, they are supporting a sweeping movement that is replacing evil corporate agriculture with whole and pure family farms producing milk from cows that are happy and free. Too many don’t understand that the label means absolutely NOTHING unless government regulations make it so, and unless those regulations are actually enforced by government. I know that I’m a cynic, but I strongly suspect that ALL of the milk for Trader Joes comes from the same corporate supplier — probably offering reasonably high quality product that probably meets “organic” labeling standards — and that said product is then packaged, at the source, into various containers. Some of those containers say “organic” (and get the highest price on the shelf) and some of those don’t (and get purchased by price-conscious shoppers). It, frankly, wouldn’t surprise me if some of that same product goes into containers with “Garelick” or “Hood” on it (for New England).
I fear that the appeal of Donald Trump is a wistful desire for an earlier time (and a reality that never existed).
SomervilleTom says
Though an interesting Freudian slip.
Jasiu says
See this for ratings of organic milk.
merrimackguy says
Or once they turn that direction do you say “to hell with them.”
I’m not trying to be provocative (or snarky) here. There’s some sense on my side that many people have to fix themselves, and if you’re engaging in a lot of behaviors that limit your prospects, there’s not much to be done, which roughly translates into “cares less than Democrats.”
Just wondering how a progressive, who has a concern about certain populations, responds when those same people turn to someone they find anathema.
Secondly Trump is clearly not the choice of the Republican elite, which is so often the subject of scorn here on BMG. I’m already reading stuff that Clinton would be a better choice for my crowd of Republicans because they think she would be better/easier to work with. Talk about a strange twist.
SomervilleTom says
You ask an interesting question, well worth discussing (though perhaps on its own thread or threads).
I tend to agree that once a population has gotten to the point where the support Mr. Trump and his ilk, there is not much to be done. It’s a bit like once a smoker has developed lung cancer, there’s just not a lot to be done to cure the disorder.
In my view, our government failed that population long before they got to where they are today and I think we need to address those failures. For example, much of what that population believes is PURE HOKUM — lies that are broadcast over and over by Fox News, and because the population in question relies on Fox News, they believe the lies to be true. The canonical example of this is climate change.
I think solution to this issue requires several parts:
– Reinstating the fairness doctrine and equal time doctrine for any broadcast network
– Improve our education system, so that this population learns as children how propaganda works, how to recognize it, and how to try and resist it.
– Improve our education system, so that this population learns how to do basic math, science, and logic. This population needs to know enough science to know how to recognize a lie or distortion, and what questions to ask in response.
– Reverse Citizens United, so that our political dialog is open to more than just the top 0.1% by wealth of our population.
Until we do those things, I think this dysfunctional behavior will continue. I don’t “blame” this population, but I also don’t want them controlling our government.
merrimackguy says
I have more a belief in natural ignorance rather than being influenced (how many people actually watch a FOX news show?) and some studies show that these shows just reinforce existing views. I could be wrong. I know there are people out there that just think things without any basis- for example when people used to complain about foreign aid, without realizing that we were giving very little (both amount and percentage!) and not knowing that Israel and Egypt were the two largest recipients. Since Iraq and Afghanistan not much talk of that however.
As you might know many Republicans don’t like Trump. We’ll see what happens. Look for that thread.
PS I think you are 100% correct on this. We probably differ on how it happened and how it should be fixed.
edgarthearmenian says
might in turn consider that you are the one representing dysfunctional behavior. Do you ever have any doubt at all about your convictions? As far as education goes, the propaganda machine of modern liberalism is already at work “educating” the minds of our students.
I believe that you are wrong about two of your points which you repeat here quite often. !) If you ever lived in a Muslim country you would know the hatred which is taught to little children towards infidels, especially Jews. As well as a total disregard for life, they care not one whit about “our values.” That is a myth. I suggest that you do a little travel in the Muslim world. and 2) What Trump has suggested re Muslim immigrants is no different that what is happening now in Finland, Greece, the Balkan countries, and even Norway. Are those countries all racist too? Read a little European news to find out about what is happening in Europe. Trump is by no means unique in his desire to protect his fellow countrymen.
SomervilleTom says
I’m married to a German who reads European news in German. I’m well aware of the reaction of Europe to the refugees. Here’s something that Europeans are saying that you haven’t mentioned: this crisis is the direct result of America’s catastrophic invasion of Iraq in 2003, and America therefore has an obligation to do far more than it has done so far to deal with the results.
Donald Trump has more in common with the emerging Adolph Hitler than anybody else, and there are an increasing number of European sources who voice that opinion.
I listed four points. It doesn’t appear that you responded to any of them.
edgarthearmenian says
The four points that you make are valid and serious. What I object to is playing the Nazi card toward Trump and his supporters. Why do I say the Nazi card? It is the same ploy used by Putin and his cohorts in Russia to defame the Ukrainians, the same ploy used by George Will and Charles Krauthammer of the Republican establishment to defame the populist movement in their party.
And since your wife is German you must know that Merkel’s popularity has dipped below 50% for the first time ever, because of her immigration policy. Also you should know by now that blaming America for their problems has always been the favorite hobby of the leftist European media.
And lastly, I think that you should do a little research to find out where slavery still exists in the world. Unlike you, I have seen slaves, real people who are suffering at the hands of their masters: Hausas and Djermas in the sahel of Africa. Now who are their slavemasters today?
jconway says
The two sides always discuss in terms of dealing with the illegal immigrants already here and preventing more from coming, rather than the more interesting and feasible problem to tackle which is making legal immigration significantly easier than it is now. I have yet to see a reform that really includes that component, which to me, is incredibly necessary for any change to succeed.
Christopher says
…that illegal immigration becomes almost moot. We’ll of course always have to guard against those who come in with nefarious designs, but if people just want to work or otherwise make a better life they should be allowed to come. When people say that those here illegally should pay a fine and go to the back of the line, I always want to ask why the heck there is a line.
SomervilleTom says
Tell me, sir, do you object to Donald Trump retweeting quotes from Benito Mussolini”?
Did anyone in the Ukraine or any Republican populist (whatever THAT is) say on Meet The Press that the infamous quote (“It is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a sheep”):
I don’t know about you, but I have a VERY specific answer to Mr. Trump’s perhaps rhetorical question (“But what difference does it make whether it’s Mussolini or somebody else?”) — I think it makes a HUGE difference.
Or perhaps you’d prefer if I played the “KKK card”, in reference to Mr. Trump’s disavow David Duke and the KKK.
Here’s the exchange, as reported by NPR:
Are you seriously defending this man?
Christopher says
I’ve tried so hard to avoid calling him fascist, but…
centralmassdad says
I agree with the Lexington writer at the Economist: he is much more like Berlusconi than Mussolini. In other words, he’s more likely to have a bunga bunga party with strippers in the Lincoln bedroom than he is to invade Ethiopia.
necturus says
…but that still doesn’t make Trump a fascist. He has nothing like Mussolini’s squadristi or Hitler’s SA; there are no paramilitaries knocking on doors demanding support, or parading through the streets in jackboots.
SomervilleTom says
You write “he has nothing like Mussolini’s squadristi or Hitler’s SA …”. In this morning’s news, I see that a large group of black students were “escorted out [of a Donald Trump rally] by law enforcement before the event started” (emphasis mine):
Funny how nobody seems to claim responsibility for ejecting a group of students peacefully attending an on-campus event at an institution they pay to attend. Apparently their offence was breathing while black.
I grant you that this is not yet “brown-shirt” activity. Still, note that these were LAW ENFORCEMENT officials, presumably uniformed.
I don’t know about you, but it has FAR MORE elements of Nazi-style scapegoating than I find acceptable.
edgarthearmenian says
http://usuncut.com/black-lives-matter/clinton-holds-campaign-speech-in-atlanta-to-discuss-race-throws-out-black-lives-matter-activists-video/
And by the way, Tom, your silence re a certain Milton democrat is interesting too. It seems that it is not just Republican politicians who are corrupt)))
And why do you feel the need to inject race into almost all of your critiques? Do you have a guilt complex?
SomervilleTom says
There are not, to my knowledge, any Democrats from Milton involved in this race for either party. That portion of your comment is irrelevant.
There is a key difference between the link you cite and what happened yesterday at the Donald Trump rally.
The link you cite describes BLM protesters who actively interfered with an on-going Clinton campaign event. They were removed by police AFTER they had interrupted Ms. Clinton’s speech. That’s normal, expected, and I strongly suspect was the point of the demonstration.
In yesterday’s Donald Trump event, a group of black students was ejected BEFORE THE EVENT BEGAN. How do YOU think the students were identified, if not for the color of their skin? They were sitting quietly in their seats!
Why do YOU feel the need to deny racism when it is explicitly in front of you?