This is response to a comment on the other thread, in which it was posited that Trump would pay no political price for his somewhat “over the line” speech at the Al Smith dinner. (“Here she is, pretending not to hate Catholics.”) A speech that sort of missed the point of why Democrats, Republicans, and Catholics alike all remember and honor Al Smith, and which contrasted sharply with her speech, which after a round of corny awkward jokes, starkly illustrated why the GOP of 2016 is so thoroughly opposed to what the Al Smith dinner is supposed to represent. (Seriously, go listen to her speech. If you want to skip the bad jokes, skip to 15:00, at which point she makes a stirring case for how America SHOULD be, and that is a thorough takedown of Trumpism. She doesn’t do stirring speeches, or make any case for she would be President? Bull.)
It was posited that Trump would pay no price because Clinton had “surrendered the moral high ground” by the supposedly anti-Catholic attitudes revealed in the Wikileaks emails. Bunk.
For the most part, those offended are the same ones “offended” by the dire imposition on their religious liberty to make sure other people don’t use birth control.
I believe that the organisation to which porcupine refers is Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, an organization formed in 2005 and which opposes the Church’s exclusive emphasis on sexual politics at the expense of the wider aspects of Catholic teaching on social morality. As such, it turns out that the group found itself NOT supporting GOP policies over the last 11 years. Hence the pearl clutching, and the denunciations from the John Paul II-political Catholics.
This is purely an instance of IOKIYAR. When the execrable Cardinal Dolan, or Paul Ryan or Rick Santorum or other Opus Dei types pretend that “Thomism” and “subsidiarity” give theological support for the psuedo-intellectual social Darwinism of Ayn Rand (which, you might be surprised to learn, is a lie), they are exemplary fighters for their religious values. When their opponents engage in political activity in opposition to them, those opponents must be denounced as perfidious.
The Podesta email was sent in the context of the 2012 mini-crisis over birth control and Obamacare. Recall that Cardinal Dolan, who is an evil man, was quite gung-ho to support keeping people without health insurance in order to protect his religious liberty to control what other people do. In true John Paul II fashion, Dolan pretended to be the monolithic voice of Catholicism and thus thundered away, as he is wont to do.
In response to someone inquiring why there isn’t simply a revolution by Catholics to overthrow the Church prelates, Podesta wrote something like “this is why we formed CAPG.” In other words, Catholic opponents of Dolan’s absolutism would seek reform of the Church’s approach to such pastoral matters from within, rather than trying to overthrow the hierarchy in its entirety. We had similar discussions here; many (non-Catholic) liberals were then quite impatient and disappointed in the liberal Catholic’s “reform from within” approach. Sandy Newman described the Church’s “middle ages dictatorship,” which was a phrase used here on BMG by those similarly frustrated. Podesta was defending liberal Catholics’ unwillingness to “revolt.”
His use of the first person plural now allows Republicans like porcupine to use the “astroturf” talking point that she read on redstate. It ignores that Podesta is actually Catholic, and likely is involved in the organization, because it supports his view of Catholic social teaching. I would hope he is: that’s why I support him and his boss.
The other thing that is producing faux pearl clutching is that Sandy Newman stated a wish for a “Catholic Spring” in response to Dolan, who is an evil man. This, of course, is a wish that was then, is now, and has long been shared by the overwhelming majority of American Catholics, even if they are not willing to secede from the Church. The irony is that, just a year later, something that could be just that began with the election of Pope Francis.
Just look what all those people who, in 2012, were horrified that a Catholic might disagree publicly at all with a Price of the Church, now say about the Pope himself, once it became clear that he would not provide moral justification for social Darwinism.
This email scandal is a non-issue, except to those whom are trying to rationalize their support of a forthrightly depraved candidate. Pretending that Clinton somehow “lost the high ground” is simply a continuation of their absurd campaign tactics this season:
… doesn’t even directly involve Hillary Clinton!! They are from
… wait for it…
APRIL 2011.
…but when you do they are definitely worth reading.
In spades!
I got a few Catholic friends from college who are a bit more conservative than mine, including my groomsman who took my to my first Latin Mass. He’s abstaining but you’re post makes a better case for Hillary with folks like him than others I’ve read. Michigan is still a bit swingy, so his vote does count!
Cardinal Dolan an “evil” man??? I know it’s hard for liberals to understand why a Catholic Bishop isn’t “pro choice” but this assertion is a bit much even for this site. And be careful, with this kind of rhetoric you might be descending into deplorables land.
If the word “evil” has any meaning at all, then the behavior of Mr. Dolan surely qualifies. Did you read the links?
We are not talking about pro-choice or anti-choice. We are talking about Mr. Dolan’s behavior in hiding large sums of money from the victims of the sex abuse that Mr. Dolan enabled, Mr. Dolan’s explicit attempts suppress notification of the victims, and then Mr. Dolan’s attempts to claim that the statute of limitations had run out when the victims did step forward.
If that isn’t “evil”, then what is?
No mirrors are needed. Instead, I suggest you read the links and come to your own conclusions.
He presides over the second largest Archdiocese in the United States, one that makes major and sustained contributions (direct and indirect) to the social welfare of the 5 boroughs and has for decades. I suggest you check out those links and then we can engage in further earnest conversations. Who knows, even a secular liberal might find some “good” in all that but I have my doubts…
And have defended many prelates on this site. Cardinal George was also a culture warrior, but he also booted pedophiles from the priesthood instead of covering up their crime. Bernadin and Mahoney came from the liberal wings of the church and covered up pederasts, Flynn and Dolan are from the conservative wings and also covered up pederasts. They are evil because they covered up pederasts, not because of their social or political views.
I’ve defended Catholic Charities in its case against the ACLU, defended the right of Catholic hospitals not to perform abortions, etc. I love my church and will defend it on this site. I also strongly believe in the whole life ethic and the social justice traditions, which were lost under the last two popes and revitalized by this one. There is no perfect Catholic candidate since Christ is not on the ballot, but on 9 out of 10 issues Hillary is better on Catholic Social Teaching than the racist, refugee spurning immigrant basher the GOP has nominated.
And on the one issue where she isn’t, we have data that shows the progressive approach to abortion actually reduces abortions while the conservative approach doesn’t move that needle while increasing endangerment to women. And the GOP nominated the least sincere pro-life candidate so that’s a wash too. Hillary is approach 55% of the Catholic vote which is a record for a modern Democrat. She’s not the candidate that hates Catholic values..
Follow the links on CMD’s post, you loser. Then you can dispute facts, you factotum.
… I long ago left the Catholic Church. And I did so, not just because of their morally indefensible attitude towards women and towards pedophile clergy, but also because, alongside this a la carte approach to suffering inflicted by members of the clergy, I was told that a certain type of ‘cafeteria Catholicism‘, on my part, would not be countenanced.
I trust you are not too far gone to see the irony therein.
Don’t take my word for it. Here is James, purported to be the brother of Jesus, writing:
If we go by the tenets of the Catholic Church itself and refuse to pick and choose the suffering we see, for all the good throughout all of the 5 boroughs of Chicago, the priest, Dolan, is still guilty of favoritism for not confronting pedophiles with their crimes and for letting their victims suffer. Indeed, in turning his back upon mercy he has defined whole new classes of suffering. That’s quite a feat and it counts as evil to this former Catholic.
I love it when liberals resort to quoting Scripture. “Left the Church long ago.” Bye.
n/t
Mark-ball has First Amendment issues. Another tolerant liberal exposed.
It doesn’t say what you think it does.
at those who disagree. You must know that if this blog needs anything, it needs a little dissent, a little disagreement; otherwise it turns into a massive bore like the Red group.
You are a bit if a paleocon and bring in an interesting populist/right perspective on foreign affairs and economics. I can disagree agreeably with your thoughts. Topper is just shouting slogans he got second hand off another website, it’s not really dissent as it’s merely drivel.
Those who reject it are sedevacantists and there are plenty of fringe, anti-Semitic churches pretending to be the real Catholic Church you’re more than welcome to join. I happen to think the best strength of the Catholic Church is its universality.
It’s one of the few churches I’ve been to have Republican and Democrat, rich and poor, native born and immigrant, black and white, all sitting in the same pew and reciting the same prayers. Immigrants are frankly keeping the doors open, and the pews filled, certainly at my Salem parish and also in the Chicago parishes I’ve attended. Frankly, immigrant priests are keeping the parishes fully sacramentally staffed.
Women and gays are welcomed in my experience as well, we even have an openly gay lay minister leading the Adult Ed in Salem and a female parish administrator. It would presently cause a schism between the Northern and Southern Hemispheres to change the rules and unfortunately open up papal infallibility to attack, but otherwise, the rules rest solely on tradition alone.
Scripture and reason point us toward a long history of women liturgical leadership, Paul writes letters to female bishops in Timothy who are held as Timothy’s equals. Phoebe and Chloe. When homosexuality is condemned it’s usually part of a broader sin. Sodom and Gomorah were punished for raping angels, generally a bad idea, the sexuality of the rapists is rather immaterial.
What Paul condemns as homosexuality in the New Testament is really the old Socratic practice the early Greek church continues of tutors taking on younger lovers. That practice had to stop, and I think we can all agree the Church should do a better job on that front today before it can preach credibly on sexual ethics (remove the log in their eye as it were).
Hispanic and Vietnamese laborer a totally rebuilt a garden at St Rose in Chelsea across from my current campaign office, and they did it in three weeks donating their time and labor as masons and gardeners. Just like the Irish, French and Italian immigrants who built the church a century ago.
Trump and his few Catholic supporters like RR Reno, like Buchanan and Buckley before them had an affinity for a more dour, frankly more spiritually dead form of the faith that appealed to High Medieval notions of patriarchy and social hierarchy. The reformation began to restore the Church to its patristic roots and that’s what V2 did. Trent was the innovation, V2 was really a restoration of biblical worship and biblical practices.
Robert George and George Wiegel reject Trump, and they are harsh critics of Democrats and Pope Francis’ papacy. So does Ross Routhat and Damon Linker. There are few Catholic conservative intellectuals actually willing to support Trump publicly, and the sensus fidelium of American Catholics also renounce him. Trump was baptized and confirmed by Norman Vincent Peale, the notorious Catholic basher who opposed John F Kennedy’s presidency on purely religious grounds. That faith built on prejudice is exactly the kind Trump still preaches, a nativism where only the rich, white and Protestant may rule and be admitted to the fruits of American life. The irony of him attending the Al Smith dinner is lost on know one who actually cares about American Catholicism.
I thought you were defending Dolan. So defend him. I took the argument to him, and on his own terms, and all you can do is call it rubbish and make snide remarks. Defend the actions of your man or STFU.
…Oh, also… If any such “resort to quoting scripture’ is good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.
Conway needs a little fiber in his diet.
Hillary Clinton is a lifelong Methodist, a fact that has been readily documented in multiple places:
We readers are again left wondering whether you are attempting sarcasm, irony, or just plain trolling.
In any case, your comment provides good opportunity to present Ms. Clinton’s views about her faith in her own words. I note that it took approximately seven seconds to find this on Google.
You have any original thoughts or just Google?
You apparently argue that presiding over a large organization has some connection to being “good” or “evil”. I reject that.
The comment that I responded to challenged the characterization of Mr. Dolan as “evil”, then went to a completely irrelevant assertion about abortion.
This has nothing to do with abortion, and has nothing to do with how large or small his organization is. In my view, an institution that promotes an evil man like Mr. Dolan to the position he now holds is itself evil and corrupt, since they knew exactly what he did and why when they made that appointment. It is precisely because of the “major and sustained contributions…” of his diocese that his position as Archbishop is so deeply wrong. The same is true of Bernard Law, promoted into a soft and safe retirement in the Vatican in order to protect him from prosecution for the similar evil he wrought in Massachusetts. An institution that truly valued that long history and the importance of those “major and sustained contributions” would want to keep Mr. Dolan as far from his current role as possible. The only conclusion is that the institutional Roman Catholic Church in fact places so little value on all that they are perfectly comfortable in placing a pederast at its head.
The first defense of men who beat their wives and sexually abuse their children is a recitation of all the good works they do in their community. It is utterly irrelevant to the behavior that makes them evil.
I reject the premise that good works can somehow balance out the evils that this man has done. So long as you maintain this line of argument, there is very little for us to have “further earnest conversations” about.
Good Tom, well played. A few omissions – the absence of any reference to George Bush is an obvious miss (didn’t you get that memo?), and the jump to wife beating suggests the tank might be a little low today but you probably get that a lot from however many friends you have left. I guess we’ll have to disagree about the Catholic credentials of the odious Mr. Podesta (a fine fell in your book, no doubt). In the meantime, I’m sure you can find a house of worship that aligns with your leanings assuming of course that you can get yourself off the couch.
. . .ex cathedra?
Funny how you avoid the substance of the specious claim you offered. The casual reader might almost think you saw “execrable” and “evil”, missed or ignored the fact that they were links to material pertaining to the clergy sex abuse scandal, and jumped to your own patriarchal anti-choice agenda. Some of us able to simply say “I was wrong” when we make such a mistake; some of us are not.
So instead you bob, weave, and wave your hands about — everything except acknowledge the awful reality of what Mr. Dolan (and Bernard Law) did, as well as the moral bankruptcy of the institution that rewarded them for their behavior.
I frankly don’t care about the “Catholic credentials of … Mr. Podesta”, those are irrelevant. Mr. Dolan did what he did. The facts of what he did are clear and in the public record, and the thread-starter lays out those facts. I note that you still have not addressed them.
What is your characterization of a man who hides over one hundred million dollars in assets during a manufactured bankruptcy in order to evade paying restitution and penalties to dozens or hundreds of sex abuse survivors victimized by ordained men whom they were raised to trust? What is your characterization of the same man who first goes to extreme lengths to suppress information about the crimes these men committed, then asserts that the statute of limitations has run out on those crimes? If you disagree with “execrable” and/or “evil”, what words do you prefer?
Regarding my “jump” — we are talking about men who sexually abused children. You are making the argument that we should ignore those crimes because of the many “good works” those same men committed when they weren’t seducing the boys who trusted them. How is your argument any different from the example I cited?
I appreciate your words of encouragement regarding my own faith journey. Your commentary here clearly and transparently reflects the path you have chosen for yourself. I am very much at peace with the path I have chosen.
It seems, from your commentary here, that you are equally sanguine about your choice. So be it.
What faith journey is that? The one that has you believe that Podesta is a Catholic? That termination of life for profit is a Sacrament? If you’re looking for some good malfeasance and diversion of funds, find your way to the Clinton Foundation. A fella of your skill should have great fun the “bobbing and weaving” your way to denial. FRAUD.
n/m
That does not mean she is Catholic, it does mean a majority of Catholics are either convinced her values align with theirs or Trump’s values align with them less. Likely a combination. The market oriented definition of solidarity and subsidiarity (look them up on wiki in case Breitbart doesn’t bother with them) pushed by the Acton Institute, the late Fr. Neuhaus and Rusty Reno over at First Things, and the kind endorsed by Ryan and Dolan is on the wane.
Pope Francis correctly diagnosed income inequality and climate change as the crisis of our age, and a threat to human life. Abortion is but a symptom of income inequality which erodes the culture of life and the human family. There are far more people that profit off of war, environmental destruction, and sickness in this country than profit off of abortion. I would rather we rein them in.
Catholics are worshipping climate change! Who knew? Liberal nirvana achieved.!! Come back to the Church, moonbats. All is well!
… we broke it.
Pretty sure I know who you are, though if I were sure then you’d know CMD is an avowed moderate. CMD doesn’t issue strong opinions without a lot of thought.
You, who apparently didn’t read any of the linked information, and don’t understand any of the context.
Dolan is indeed an evil man. It is a scandal that he is a Cardinal of the Church, and that scandal directly undermines the magisterium.
Go it. I’m sure that you’ll be back in the pews as soon as Dolan moves on. Another FRAUD.