Jay Inslee said he was going to talk about climate “come hell or high water.” Welp, that’s very on the nose, and very on-brand for him. He’s the only ~1% support candidate that I’m interested in; but I think last night showed the potential value of having way-too-many candidates share the stage. I have no use for Marianne Williamson as a public person and potential nominee; and yet this was a good — if weird — riff:
“If you think any of this wonkiness is going to deal with this dark psychic force of the collectivized hatred that this president is bringing up in this country, then I’m afraid that the Democrats are going to see some very dark days,” she continued.
Never mind who said it; there’s too much coalition-blob GAME THEORY™️ in Democratic politics, and way too little psychological and ethical sophistication. Have people still not read George Lakoff; or any number of half-baked management “leadership” texts? Even that would be preferable to the muddle that’s the D party standard.
Christopher says
They let Biden and Harris go several minutes while ignoring the others.
Christopher says
The elbows are a lot sharper tonight than last night.
doubleman says
Warren (more so) and Sanders (less so) won tonight’s debate as well!
I think the sound bites are going to be Biden’s 3030 slip and Gabbard’s very good and direct attack on Harris’s record as a prosecutor.
The health care policy discussions of tonight paled in comparison to last night. Warren and Sanders know the policy and they have the moral clarity on the issue. Everyone else is trying to walk a poll-tested tightrope and it isn’t working well.
SomervilleTom says
How on earth could Mr. Biden screw up his own website?
That really is emblematic of my issues with him.
SomervilleTom says
I really dislike Ms. Harris. She is at the very bottom of my preference list.
I really liked Cory Booker this evening.
I join the CNN talking heads in thinking that Elizabeth Warren won the second round of debates.
In my view, there are four viable candidates. In order of my preference, they are:
1. Elizabeth Warrent
2. Cory Booker
3. Bernie Sanders
4. Joe Biden
I’m ready for the others to politely drop out of the contest.
fredrichlariccia says
Colorado Senator Michael Bennett offered the best achievable vision for the future :
1. 88% of all prison inmates lack a high school diploma. Solve that to address crime, poverty, social and economic justice.
2. Build on Obamacare with a public option.
3. Enact comprehensive immigration reform by passing the McCain / Kennedy Gang of Eight (on which he served) bill that passed the Senate but was blocked by House Republicans.
4. Focus on defeating Trump and the future instead of re-litigating 50 year old history.
jconway says
Bennet and Bullock are the two white moderates worth watching if Biden stumbles. I couldn’t watch any of the debate since I was moving out of my apartment, but friends were updating me and it seems that they thought Biden did poorly while others think he rebounded from the last one.
SomervilleTom says
I’m really serious that Mr. Bullock should be disqualified. I encourage you to watch his performance last night. I found him appalling.
I guess I’m just immune to whatever it is that Mr. Bennett (and for that matter Mr. Biden) is selling. I don’t object to it, it just does nothing for me.
I really can’t remember what Mr. Bennett said last night, and I think that’s bad news at this stage in the primaries.
jconway says
I’m grading him on a curve compared to his peers. He came across as more progressive than Delaney, more intelligent than Ryan, and more charismatic than Hickenlooper. He also got a lot done in his state despite a GOP legislature and used an obscure state level law to get dark money out of Montana politics. So I like his record and when he talked about issues in his wheelhouse he did well. Totally flubbed on the nuclear first strike question and got schooled by Warren on that and health care.
Bennet got points with me for steering the school busing debate back to the present reality and what are we going to do about it now.
To be clear neither can hold a candle to Senator Warren.
jconway says
I disagree about Harris, but agree that the debate stage needs to be shortened for the next time. Fortunately it should be. Booker deserves to do better, I might start donating to him too.
fredrichlariccia says
“Most of the Democratic candidates are ‘social democrats’ : advocates of a private-sector -driven economy, but with a stronger social safety net, enhanced bargaining power for workers and tighter regulation of corporate malfeasance.” Paul Krugman
sabutai says
I don’t know how anyone buys Cory Booker’s act. Cory Booker is happy to turn over public schools to anybody who shows him money disqualifies him in my book. His history of letting Mark Zuckerberg essentially run Newark schools in return for changw he found in his pockets is something from Jeb’ Bush’s playbook. He has little stunts, but then does classic Third Way crap. My least favorite of all of them.
Kamala health care plan is my favorite, but she needs to vastly improve her explanation of it.
Poor Joe. Dude doesn’t realize his moment has passed.
There were other people there but not worth talking about.
fredrichlariccia says
Cons are already running TV ads attacking the cost- $32 trillion – of Medicare for All.
Joe Biden advocates for building on Obamacare with a public option choice for those 160 million with private insurance.
SomervilleTom says
I’d like to see an analysis that examines the current cost of the elements that comprise that $32 T number. I’m pretty sure the result is a net savings. Most importantly, Medicare for All REPLACES current health care spending. ALL health insurance premiums, deductibles, co-pays, and so on are removed. ALL our-of-pocket costs to providers is removed. Each time somebody talks about the $32 T number for Medicare for All, somebody else should talk about what those same goods and services will cost for that period under the current system.
The proposal is to transfer about that much money from private hands (where a huge piece of builds sparkling new buildings for insurers and sparkling new yachts and jets for executives) to public tax dollars.
The net DIFFERENCE is, I strongly suspect, either zero or a net benefit to Americans (and net loss to those executives and their shareholders).
The media and some of the candidates are far too willing to repeat cherry-picked “cost” figures and ignore the more-than-compensating credits that they balance.
That habit is one of the more visible symptoms of the tight stranglehold the health insurance industry has on the media and on too many of our elected officials — both Republican and Democratic.
fredrichlariccia says
Our candidates make a mistake to attack the legacy of President Obama who is rightfully admired and respected by 97% of Democrats.
doubleman says
But his legacy sucks on lots of things, like immigration. We can never ever move forward with Joe Biden, and in a world in which we have kids in cages and 12 billion tons of ice melt in ONE DAY in Greenland, we absolutely cannot afford that.
SomervilleTom says
I agree with all you say, and yet it is unresponsive to Fred’s comment. The legacy of EVERY actual elected official sucks — every official has made decisions that were, in retrospect, incorrect. So what.
It seems to me that Fred is correctly observing that such attacks don’t help us from here out. Barack Obama already turned out record numbers of Democratic voters — how does attacking him do anything but discourage them?
The people who dislike Mr. Obama think those same policies were not draconian enough. They will not be won over by attacking them.
We do not need to attack Mr. Obama in order to advance our progressive agenda.
fredrichlariccia says
Il Duce touted that our candidates attacked Obama more than they attacked him at his rally in Cleveland, Ohio last night.
Attacks on Obama play right into the hand of our real enemy.
doubleman says
What are the attacks against Obama that are being referenced?
Is saying Medicare for All should be the new health care system a vicious attack on Obama? Biden wants to make it that way.
But, all the Dems supporting M4A vigorously supported and have defended the ACA.
Have they said that the ACA was wrong and bad or that it doesn’t do enough and we need something better?
If the bar for “attacking Obama” is supporting things that go beyond what Obama accomplished or pushed for, we are doomed.
Was Booker too aggressive when he said the rate of deportations was too high under Obama? What should he say instead? Everything was fine and now it’s bad?
Biden wants to wrap himself in only the good parts (and the warm fuzzy feeling) of the Obama legacy without taking any responsibility for any of the failures. It’s how he will defect every criticism of his shitty plans and record.
And you know what, it’ll probably work in the primary, and then he’ll lose in the general – just like every other time we’ve lost running a centrist who doesn’t give people a reason to come out and vote.
SomervilleTom says
I think your questions deserve separate threads.
I don’t think the questions you ask are themselves attacks on Mr. Obama. Those are different from what I heard in the debates.
jconway says
Policies and personalities are very different entities. We are all very wonky here, I think we forget that personality often wins the day over policies. I see it in my friends and family who voted for Baker, twice, who are now having second thoughts about his leadership. He was definitely the more likable of the two candidates both cycles he ran.
For a lot of people Trump is funny and kind of a stick in the eye for the people that actually care about policy for a living. Hillary was the perfect foil in retrospect. No different from the highly qualified and smart junior vice president in my advisory who lost to the class clown. We will see if the rising seniors now have buyers remorse now that the prom needs to get paid for. We will see if America does likewise.
jconway says
Obama is the coolest, calmest, and most barrier breaking President we had. I think we can suggest building on his legacy without tearing it down. Biden’s problem is he has no new ideas to build on, only a legacy to defend.
I think the problem with Warren/Sanders will be black turnout, the mainstream media bias against radical change, and the business community rallying around Trump. There may be less risk of that with a Booker or Harris on the ticket in some capacity.
Christopher says
Anybody who thinks Trump is funny didn’t see the 2016 Al Smith Dinner. I for one think it’s just as well that he has skipped the WHCA dinners since I can’t imagine him being funny.
doubleman says
What were the specific attacks, tho?
Besides Booker’s immigration attack, I really didn’t see much even if Biden and hardcore DNC types complained about it.
jconway says
I read both of those things as an attack on Biden rather than Obama. Booker was exactly right he cannot have it both ways. Either he agreed with the bad policy at the time (bad) or he disagreed and said nothing (bad). I think Biden is also correct in counterattacking Castro for being in the same boat and being a bit of a hypocrite for his stance. The bad policy itself was generated by Obama’s security and political advisers, and the political framework around immigration was different in 2014-2015 than it is today.
Did Biden learn from that experience and is he capable of changing? These are germane questions that are not anti-Obama.
SomervilleTom says
@What were the specific attacks, tho?:
In the debate, I heard attacks on Joe Biden. I did not hear attacks on Barack Obama. My impression from Mr. Obama’s comments after the debate is that he had the same impression.
SomervilleTom says
Moved improperly nested comment
Trickle up says
In my view, it will come down to (1) a progressive versus (2) the charismatic moderate Obama successor of the week. CMOSW will probably win the nomination.
If Inslee were doing better I could be convinced of a third alternative, but he isn’t. Possible VEEP nominee.
Disclaimer: Did not watch the debate; infotainment makes me ill these days.
jconway says
Honestly I’d be fine with a CMOSW. Beto looked far more presidential yesterday or today than he ever has on a debate stage. Pete and Booker did well responding to these events as well. They both seem more energetic than Biden and more unifying than Warren (whom I’m still supporting).
Trickle up says
I wish I could be as sanguine about CMOS.
I am increasingly convinced both that CMOS has a hard path to victory versus Trump and an even harder path to make the changes we need if elected.
jconway says
Their governing weakness is that I don’t think you negotiate down to the consensus position before you even take office. My take on single payer is that it’s the best starting point to get a public option in the end. Starting out with a public option gets you Obamacare. Cross applying that framework to every issue could possibly scare off moderates, though after yesterday, they should be more scared of four more years.