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Bothsiderism lie about how parties are the same

December 22, 2019 By fredrichlariccia

Get ready for the fast approaching con lie both parties are ‘corrupt’ so you might as well just vote your pocketbook — another lie — for Trumpocalypse.  Here are the facts.  Since 1968, Republicans have held presidential power for 28 years and Democrats for 20 years.  According to an analysis done by Daily Kos on 1/11/17 Executive branch criminal activity by party is as follows:

Republican                                                                            Democrat

Criminal Indictments                                    123                                 3

Criminal Convictions                                      89                                  1

Prison Sentences                                              34                                  1

 

We heard the same ‘they all do it’ BS during Watergate when Nixon apologists said the only difference was that ‘Nixon got caught.’

Executive branch criminal activity by presidential administration from 1968 to 2016 —  excluding Trump — are as follows:

President         Years in Office                 Indictments              Convictions            Prison Sentences

Obama                        8                                      0                                    0                                   0

G.W. Bush                  8                                     16                                    16                                  9

Clinton                        8                                       2                                     1                                    1

G.H.W. Bush               4                                       1                                      1                                   1

Reagan                         8                                       26                                  16                                   8

Carter                            4                                        1                                      0                                   0

Ford                              2.4                                     1                                      1                                    1

Nixon                            5.6                                    76                                    55                                 15

 

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Comments

  1. bob-gardner says

    December 22, 2019 at 6:42 pm

    Source?

    • fredrichlariccia says

      December 22, 2019 at 7:47 pm

      Source was Democratic Underground dated 12/5/19.

  2. Christopher says

    December 22, 2019 at 7:56 pm

    Plus voting my pocketbook would also mean voting Democrat. As Harry Truman once said, “If you want to live like a Republican…”

    • fredrichlariccia says

      December 22, 2019 at 8:00 pm

      “…you better vote like a Democrat.” HST No one said it better than ‘Give ‘Em Hell Harry”!

  3. doubleman says

    December 22, 2019 at 10:46 pm

    The information in this post is false.

    You can see that the numbers are totally bogus with a quick wikipedia search.

    I have not done a full count, but looking at this lists, it’s clear the number of convictions are much more even.

    I think this post makes an important point about party tribalism, it just isn’t the point Fred wants to make.

    • SomervilleTom says

      December 22, 2019 at 11:16 pm

      I don’t have time to do a data analysis this time around either, but my conclusion is the same as yours.

      I remember doing a fairly detailed analysis of the two federal legislative branches some years ago. What I found then was that the split in indictments and convictions was proportional to the representation in each body. The conclusion was clear enough — crime and corruption in politics is non-partisan. I think I also remember encountering a similar analysis done at the state level and coming to the same conclusion.

      Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think if you look at these statistics for Massachusetts, you’ll conclude that pretty much all Democrats are corrupt. That is, of course, because there have been so many more Democrats than Republicans in the state legislature for so many years that the “Corrupt Republican” team hasn’t had a chance to even get on the field, never mind even the score.

      • fredrichlariccia says

        December 23, 2019 at 12:12 am

        Apples and Oranges BS. My analysis is of National Executive branch corruption from 1968 to 2016, NOT FEDERAL OR STATE LEGISLATIVE branches. Get your freakin’ facts straight!

        • doubleman says

          December 23, 2019 at 7:37 am

          Your claim is about parties, and it is not true. Unless you compare the parties overall, the point you are making rings hollow. And, for the record, your original post did not make the allegation that this was about federal executive branch criminality only.

          If the point is that the administrations of Nixon, Reagan, George W, and Trump were corrupt and criminal, then that is correct. You also just picked the worst administrations in the history of the country. They are awful. No one will say otherwise.

          To be honest about the parties, you have to deal with people like Nick Mavroules (Peabody is my hometown), Jim Traficant, Anthony Weiner, Rod Blagojevich, and also some others closer to home and time – like Charles Flaherty, Tom Finneran, and Sal Dimasi. And so on and so on.

          Both parties are bad, Republicans are worse, and 4 modern GOP administrations were especially terrible.

          Also, the Bush Administration should have had MANY more convictions, but the Obama administration and Democratic leadership in the House decided to give them a complete pass on war crimes and lying to get us into a war (is there a worse crime politicians can engage in?).

          I find this all ironic that you are making claims about party purity, but you also regularly accuse others of engaging in dangerous ideological purity. Maybe take the blinders off.

          • fredrichlariccia says

            December 23, 2019 at 3:55 pm

            The data proves that there was significantly more criminal corruption in Republican administrations than Democratic administrations during the last 50 years. I focused exclusively on the Executive branch because I did not see any reliable data on the legislative and judicial branches for that period. And, I specifically did NOT include the Trump years because his crime spree is still in process.

            • doubleman says

              December 23, 2019 at 4:08 pm

              Before editing the post, you made no specific reference to executive branch only. And your headline is clearly about party v. party. It is not just about modern GOP administrations being more criminal than Dem administrations.

          • Christopher says

            December 23, 2019 at 5:38 pm

            When I first saw this post he clearly made references to Dem and GOP ADMINISTRATIONS, and I have seen similar data elsewhere.

          • terrymcginty says

            December 24, 2019 at 9:15 pm

            A lot of words you supply us with, Doubleman, but not a lot of stats. I wonder why?

            • SomervilleTom says

              December 24, 2019 at 10:33 pm

              I suspect this is a case where the more statistics are offered, the murkier the resulting picture gets.

              I have no doubt that Donald Trump is the most corrupt President in modern times, perhaps in history. Since Mr. Trump (or Mr. Pence) will be our opponent in 2020, I’m not sure that anything beyond that adds much value to the discussion.

              What I haven’t seen yet is an agreed-upon metric for what roles will and will not be examined, what data sources we will use for the various categories, and how those data sources will be aggregated into a summary like we see here.

              I already know that the GOP is corrupt. The moral rot that I observe is pervasive with or without statistics like this.

              • fredrichlariccia says

                December 24, 2019 at 10:41 pm

                I disagree, Tom. Respectfully. I say hit the corrupt traitors with every weapon in our arsenal to take them all down in November, if not sooner!

                • SomervilleTom says

                  December 26, 2019 at 12:59 pm

                  @hit the corrupt traitors with every weapon in our arsenal…:

                  The Japanese play a strategy game called “G0”, often compared to chess (but much older). For its first few thousand years, Go was often used to teach strategy to young warriors.

                  A core learning from Go is that every attack strengthens the defender. It is therefore important to choose attacks that have great gain, so that the benefits of the outcome outweigh the resulting local strengthening.

                  I share your contempt for the GOP and everything it stands for. I’m not sure I share your enthusiasm for throwing everything we have at them at every opportunity.

                • fredrichlariccia says

                  December 26, 2019 at 3:23 pm

                  “Carry the battle to them. Don’t let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive.” Harry Truman

                  I’m going to focus my efforts in 2020 on two goals:

                  1. Campaign like hell to win my candidate — Joe Biden — the Democratic nomination but refrain from personally attacking any Democratic candidate in the race. Philosophical differences on issues like healthcare are fair but NO ad hominem, attacks.

                  2. UNITE in solidarity behind the Democratic ticket (my personal favorite is Stacey Abrams of Georgia) and work like hell to defeat Trump on November 3.

                  If adopted, that strategy should keep us all busy next year to achieve the victory we all want.

            • doubleman says

              December 25, 2019 at 7:40 am

              Look at the Wikipedia entry I linked to.

              If the point is about corrupt administrations over the past 50 years, then sure, Republican administrations have been far more corrupt. Fred’s original point (and still the title of this post) is about parties overall. The issue there is very different and a quick view of just that Wikipedia page I linked to shows a more even picture. Or look at this Wikipedia entry. Lots and lots of Ds in there.

              Just even consider this state – Flaherty, Finneran, Dimasi, Turner, etc, etc.

              The Democratic party is better than the GOP on almost every front, and it is not close. But when it comes to corruption and criminality, both parties stink.

        • SomervilleTom says

          December 23, 2019 at 6:02 pm

          I appreciate the clarification.

          I, like doubleman, misunderstood your original threadstarter so that I thought it was making an assertion about the two parties.

          FWIW, I find it easier to discuss data like this when you provide links to the actual data rather than copying excerpts. This is because many — even most — misalignments about facts hinge on things like how was the search conducted, what was counted and not counted, and so on.

          I’m still fuzzy about how “executive branch criminal activity” is defined. For example, are these searches of published newspaper stories, or instead searches of public records databases for each of the hundreds or thousands of executive branch employees?

          If it claims to be the latter, I think the numbers are way too low. After all, the various cabinet agencies have huge payrolls.

          If we’re talking about published reports, I fear that’s quite sensitive to who publishes the report, how valid the report is, and so on.

          While I appreciate the clarification, I’m very nervous about categorical assertions like this. I bet that an eager intern on some GOP staff could come up with opposite data by carefully cherry-picking who is included in the survey and what sources are examined. For example, I’m confident that Breitbart and Fox will have many more pieces about Democratic indictments.

          In any case, I apologize for misunderstanding your original thread-starter.

          I’m also happy to see BMG back up this evening. I’m guessing our editors had an interesting day.

          • Christopher says

            December 23, 2019 at 9:19 pm

            I suspect an administration means political appointees and WH staff. Obviously, whatever criteria we use needs to be consistent across the board.

            • jconway says

              December 23, 2019 at 9:43 pm

              I cannot help but feel these posts would be more relevant in a general election. I do not think there is a Biden critic on this blog willing to argue that he is worse than the Republicans, especially under Trump, or that there is some equivalent between Hunter’s conflict of interest and the veritable gravy train of corruption this administration has engaged in.

              Right now we have two great choices besides Biden still very much in the race with stronger progressive bona fides and a greater reliance on grassroots fundraising. Were this a Biden v. Buttigieg race or a Biden v. Trump race than this post is very relevant. We should absolutely protect him from GOP attacks, but there’s also a risk of bothsiderism where any attack against Biden is perceived as unfair or coming from the right. I think it would damage our primary to engage in that kind of black and white thinking.

  4. bob-gardner says

    December 25, 2019 at 10:11 am

    If anyone needs evidence that “both sides do it” check out the latest budget resolution where Democrats caved into about every Republican atrocity imaginable.

  5. pogo says

    December 26, 2019 at 10:28 am

    I’m with double man in this. “Bothsiderism” often uses data in such a way the proves whatever point needs to be proven. So here we have data on “Executive branch criminal activity by party”, as if it proves something. Instead of showing other data–like corruption at all levels of government, or including legislative branches.

    Inadvertently, this post really supports the “Bothsiderism” claim that the author is trying to dispute. While I, in the most unscientific way, believe “we” are better. I think the best position to take is to say the system is broken, we are broken and how do we fix it. These kinds of exercises are a waste of time. They are either designed for tribal consumption (we are better than them), which is post is. Or used on a public debate which will quickly spiral down into a shouting match that only makes our divisions worst. So what is the point of having these kinds of discussions, s they don’t prove a damn thing.

    • fredrichlariccia says

      December 29, 2019 at 4:26 pm

      Trumpist ‘bothsiderism’ be damned.

      The point of this reality-based discussion — which is the stated mission of Blue Mass Group — is to present evidence to support my belief that during the last 50 years at the national executive branch level, Republican administrations have been marked by corruption.

      Just because some deny facts doesn’t mean they aren’t true. Aldous Huxley said : “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

      • fredrichlariccia says

        December 30, 2019 at 2:37 pm

        Pukes need the media’s bothsiderism bias to refute the facts of Trump’s Corrupt Ukraine Bargain . Moscow Mitch and his spineless lapdogs don’t want witnesses to testify in the Senate show trial because they know Trump is guilty and any new revelations would only serve to tighten the noose around his neck.

  6. bob-gardner says

    December 31, 2019 at 8:04 am

    Joltin’ Joe wants a puke veep https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-12-30/joe-biden-republican-vice-president-2020-election

    • Christopher says

      December 31, 2019 at 8:51 am

      Except not really. (Also, you to with the childish name calling?)

      • SomervilleTom says

        December 31, 2019 at 10:13 am

        I suspect that Bob is quoting Fred.

        I have a hard time believing that even Fred is ok with this latest “gaffe”. Coming on the heels of his ill-considered answer to the subpoena question (later walked back), it certainly strengthens the argument that Mr. Biden is “GOP light”.

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