Agreed. A Brilliant move on her part. Deny Trump the ability to claim that he was acquitted and proclaim his innocence.
fredrichlaricciasays
And when a few of her caucus members began to applaud after the vote was announced, she shut them down immediately with a flick of her right hand and the ‘look’ that said ; “Don’t mess with Mama.”
doublemansays
“. . . but thank you for your vote earlier this week to give this impeached President the largest military budget ever.”
couvessays
We should have impeached Trump for illegally selling weapons to the Saudi’s, pillaging Syrian oil fields and pulling out of the INF nuclear treaty. But current Democratic leadership would rather appease Pentagon hawks than support the foreign policy that helped bring about the Obama coalition.
Christophersays
It should be applauded. I actually quickly got tired of the “sad day” act from the Dems. I for one am saying “FINALLY”. He deserved impeachment from the day he admitted to Lester Holt on national television that he fired Comey over the Russia investigation. If that’s not obstruction of justice I don’t know what is.
terrymcgintysays
She is far nimbler than most anticipated.
SomervilleTomsays
As I described in a parallel thread, I view this as masterful gambit by Ms. Pelosi.
She presciently said, as long ago as June of 2017, that Mr. Trump “will impeach himself”. Ms. Pelosi successfully brought that about.
This gambit will cause Mr. Trump to remove himself.
doublemansays
Maybe.
McConnell has shown to be much more patient than anyone else. The longer the delay, the more two arguments emerge.
1. The Republicans are preventing a fair trial.
2. The Democrats are showing this to be a sham, partisan move.
As this drags on and the public gets tired (which doesn’t seem to take long), which argument do you think will work better with the public? And which side will be more willing to stay on message and beat the drum?
I don’t think Pelosi had much of an easy choice, but I’m not convinced it is “genius” or “masterful.”
SomervilleTomsays
It’s the best move she has. It’s a better move than I’ve heard from virtually every other elected official and most commentators. Kudo’s for Watergate veteran John Dean for first sketching the approach, though.
I think you’ve missed some elements that make this masterful, including:
– Evidence will be published showing that Russian money ended up in the accounts of Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham. I think this is one of the places SDNY is going with its criminal investigation of Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Parnas, and Mr. Fruman. They are coordinating with the Chicago bureau that already has an extradition pending because of an outstanding criminal indictment of Dmitri Firtash
– Evidence will be published showing frequent contact between the Russian team (Mr. Firtash, Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Parnas, and Mr. Fruman) and Mitch McConnell, Lindsay Graham, and others. This is what Mr. Schiff was telegraphing when he pointedly published the call logs showing contacts between the same Russian team and Mr. Nunes, and when he has since repeatedly said that “more evidence will be revealed”.
– Donald Trump will become more and more insistent that he be given a chance to “tell his side of the story”. Mr. McConnell and Mr. Graham are well aware that this will fuel the demands that Mr. Trump be removed.
– Donald Trump will behave in increasingly insane ways, and will cause increasing damage to American interests and alliances. We saw this yesterday with Mr. Graham directly criticizing Mr. Trump’s attack on the widow of Mr. Dingell (“This ‘joke’ does not help, it is not funny in my view”).
The insight she has that you may have perhaps missed is the way in which this approach will inflame Donald Trump, and the ways that his resulting hysteria will blow back on himself and his defenders.
Christophersays
What I’ve learned over the past year is that whenever we’re tempted to second-guess Pelosi, she shows that she knows what she is doing and has thought things through.
doublemansays
Again, a Trump negotiated trade deal, the largest military budget in history, and removing tax revenue from the ACA. All within the last week. If we want to do hagiography, please address the stuff within the last 14 days.
SomervilleTomsays
It looks to me as though she may have charted a path to actually removing Donald Trump from office.
If she succeeds at that, I think it’s worth the other excesses, particularly if subsequent sessions can undo them.
The unfortunate reality is that the ACA was killed years ago when the GOP majority killed the penalty for not signing up. Like cutting off a vine at the root, it might take a little while for the leaves to whither and die, but the damage was done when the stem was cut.
jconwaysays
And they just avoided a shutdown since Trump threatened to veto a bipartisan bill to fast track military aid to Ukraine. Schumer and Thune decided not to press the issue so there wouldn’t be a Christmas shutdown. This isn’t any d issue, but literally the issue Trump was just impeached for. He’s still not releasing the aid! He’s willing to shut down the government rather than help a key ally in need a majority of senators in both parties want America to help. It’s buried as the sixth story in the Post when it could’ve been very incisive to the narrative Democrats should want to be painting.
This shows me Democrats have learned literally nothing from the Obama Years. Or the W Bush years for that matter. Fight fire with Fire, or you’ll just get burned trying to douse the flames.
Christophersays
You say avoid a shutdown like it’s a bad thing, and it’s not like we didn’t get stuff, like gun violence research for the first time in years.
SomervilleTomsays
Funding some gun violence “research” is trivial compared to cutting off military support for Ukraine so that it can resist the ongoing Russian invasion.
Mr. Trump and the GOP have again advanced the agenda of Vladimir Putin, and even the mainstream media virtually ignores it.
I really don’t understand why our media outlets are so loathe to focus on the treason of this administration and its GOP Collaborators.
Are they afraid of libel and slander laws? I really don’t understand the media silence.
Christophersays
She’s done a lot of governing in the last 14 days along with impeaching Trump. I cannot abide your all or nothing attitude.
doublemansays
It may be the best move, I question whether it is genius or will be the key move in this impeachment process.
I think you’ve missed some elements that make this masterful, including:
How are the first two things you cite relevant at all? If they will come out, they will come out. They don’t require a delay or a full trial in the Senate, right?
Sure, it may troll Trump. Lots of things do. He’s had hundreds of breakdowns in the past two years. He still sits at low 40s approval and his supporters love him.
I don’t see conviction and removal happening in this universe. I think the Dems should have expanded the impeachment inquiry and done 6 months of hearings laying out the full parade of horribles of this administration (not just the Ukraine crap) or they should move along quickly so they can spend a year calling him “the corrupt, impeached President.”
In this fight, I’d put money on Mitch to wait it our and weather a quickly forgotten bit of negative press.
Our institutions and press ain’t up for this stuff.
SomervilleTomsays
Having the first two items come out before or during a Senate trial is enormously relevant.
Even red-state America will not take kindly to Senate leadership explicitly funded by Vladimir Putin ensuring that a President funded by Vladimir Putin is cleared in a sham “trial”. If said leadership pushes through the action anyway, they will be destroyed in November of 2020 — if the 2020 election happens at all.
I agree with you that the Democrats should expand their impeachment inquiry. I think this strategy gives them time to do that. The same investigations that implicate the Senate leadership also directly implicate Donald Trump. The money trail goes from Vladimir Putin through Dmitri Firtash to Rudy Giuliani to Donald Trump. Rudy Giuliani appears to be, for whatever reasons, Mr. Putin’s “handler” for Donald Trump.
The delay also gives time for the various court actions to proceed, particularly regarding Mr. Trump’s past dealings. I think they will show similar cash flowing from Russian organized crime to Mr. Trump and his family for years or decades. I think that will be another count added to the impeachment resolution.
Time works to the advantage of the Democrats here. I think the most significant risk is the actual and ongoing damage that this administration and its GOP Collaborators are doing to America and the western world. I think that damage will continue and grow until even the red-state electorate says “enough is enough”.
johntmay says
Agreed. A Brilliant move on her part. Deny Trump the ability to claim that he was acquitted and proclaim his innocence.
fredrichlariccia says
And when a few of her caucus members began to applaud after the vote was announced, she shut them down immediately with a flick of her right hand and the ‘look’ that said ; “Don’t mess with Mama.”
doubleman says
“. . . but thank you for your vote earlier this week to give this impeached President the largest military budget ever.”
couves says
We should have impeached Trump for illegally selling weapons to the Saudi’s, pillaging Syrian oil fields and pulling out of the INF nuclear treaty. But current Democratic leadership would rather appease Pentagon hawks than support the foreign policy that helped bring about the Obama coalition.
Christopher says
It should be applauded. I actually quickly got tired of the “sad day” act from the Dems. I for one am saying “FINALLY”. He deserved impeachment from the day he admitted to Lester Holt on national television that he fired Comey over the Russia investigation. If that’s not obstruction of justice I don’t know what is.
terrymcginty says
She is far nimbler than most anticipated.
SomervilleTom says
As I described in a parallel thread, I view this as masterful gambit by Ms. Pelosi.
She presciently said, as long ago as June of 2017, that Mr. Trump “will impeach himself”. Ms. Pelosi successfully brought that about.
This gambit will cause Mr. Trump to remove himself.
doubleman says
Maybe.
McConnell has shown to be much more patient than anyone else. The longer the delay, the more two arguments emerge.
1. The Republicans are preventing a fair trial.
2. The Democrats are showing this to be a sham, partisan move.
As this drags on and the public gets tired (which doesn’t seem to take long), which argument do you think will work better with the public? And which side will be more willing to stay on message and beat the drum?
I don’t think Pelosi had much of an easy choice, but I’m not convinced it is “genius” or “masterful.”
SomervilleTom says
It’s the best move she has. It’s a better move than I’ve heard from virtually every other elected official and most commentators. Kudo’s for Watergate veteran John Dean for first sketching the approach, though.
I think you’ve missed some elements that make this masterful, including:
– Evidence will be published showing that Russian money ended up in the accounts of Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham. I think this is one of the places SDNY is going with its criminal investigation of Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Parnas, and Mr. Fruman. They are coordinating with the Chicago bureau that already has an extradition pending because of an outstanding criminal indictment of Dmitri Firtash
– Evidence will be published showing frequent contact between the Russian team (Mr. Firtash, Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Parnas, and Mr. Fruman) and Mitch McConnell, Lindsay Graham, and others. This is what Mr. Schiff was telegraphing when he pointedly published the call logs showing contacts between the same Russian team and Mr. Nunes, and when he has since repeatedly said that “more evidence will be revealed”.
– Donald Trump will become more and more insistent that he be given a chance to “tell his side of the story”. Mr. McConnell and Mr. Graham are well aware that this will fuel the demands that Mr. Trump be removed.
– Donald Trump will behave in increasingly insane ways, and will cause increasing damage to American interests and alliances. We saw this yesterday with Mr. Graham directly criticizing Mr. Trump’s attack on the widow of Mr. Dingell (“This ‘joke’ does not help, it is not funny in my view”).
The insight she has that you may have perhaps missed is the way in which this approach will inflame Donald Trump, and the ways that his resulting hysteria will blow back on himself and his defenders.
Christopher says
What I’ve learned over the past year is that whenever we’re tempted to second-guess Pelosi, she shows that she knows what she is doing and has thought things through.
doubleman says
Again, a Trump negotiated trade deal, the largest military budget in history, and removing tax revenue from the ACA. All within the last week. If we want to do hagiography, please address the stuff within the last 14 days.
SomervilleTom says
It looks to me as though she may have charted a path to actually removing Donald Trump from office.
If she succeeds at that, I think it’s worth the other excesses, particularly if subsequent sessions can undo them.
The unfortunate reality is that the ACA was killed years ago when the GOP majority killed the penalty for not signing up. Like cutting off a vine at the root, it might take a little while for the leaves to whither and die, but the damage was done when the stem was cut.
jconway says
And they just avoided a shutdown since Trump threatened to veto a bipartisan bill to fast track military aid to Ukraine. Schumer and Thune decided not to press the issue so there wouldn’t be a Christmas shutdown. This isn’t any d issue, but literally the issue Trump was just impeached for. He’s still not releasing the aid! He’s willing to shut down the government rather than help a key ally in need a majority of senators in both parties want America to help. It’s buried as the sixth story in the Post when it could’ve been very incisive to the narrative Democrats should want to be painting.
This shows me Democrats have learned literally nothing from the Obama Years. Or the W Bush years for that matter. Fight fire with Fire, or you’ll just get burned trying to douse the flames.
Christopher says
You say avoid a shutdown like it’s a bad thing, and it’s not like we didn’t get stuff, like gun violence research for the first time in years.
SomervilleTom says
Funding some gun violence “research” is trivial compared to cutting off military support for Ukraine so that it can resist the ongoing Russian invasion.
Mr. Trump and the GOP have again advanced the agenda of Vladimir Putin, and even the mainstream media virtually ignores it.
I really don’t understand why our media outlets are so loathe to focus on the treason of this administration and its GOP Collaborators.
Are they afraid of libel and slander laws? I really don’t understand the media silence.
Christopher says
She’s done a lot of governing in the last 14 days along with impeaching Trump. I cannot abide your all or nothing attitude.
doubleman says
It may be the best move, I question whether it is genius or will be the key move in this impeachment process.
How are the first two things you cite relevant at all? If they will come out, they will come out. They don’t require a delay or a full trial in the Senate, right?
Sure, it may troll Trump. Lots of things do. He’s had hundreds of breakdowns in the past two years. He still sits at low 40s approval and his supporters love him.
I don’t see conviction and removal happening in this universe. I think the Dems should have expanded the impeachment inquiry and done 6 months of hearings laying out the full parade of horribles of this administration (not just the Ukraine crap) or they should move along quickly so they can spend a year calling him “the corrupt, impeached President.”
In this fight, I’d put money on Mitch to wait it our and weather a quickly forgotten bit of negative press.
Our institutions and press ain’t up for this stuff.
SomervilleTom says
Having the first two items come out before or during a Senate trial is enormously relevant.
Even red-state America will not take kindly to Senate leadership explicitly funded by Vladimir Putin ensuring that a President funded by Vladimir Putin is cleared in a sham “trial”. If said leadership pushes through the action anyway, they will be destroyed in November of 2020 — if the 2020 election happens at all.
I agree with you that the Democrats should expand their impeachment inquiry. I think this strategy gives them time to do that. The same investigations that implicate the Senate leadership also directly implicate Donald Trump. The money trail goes from Vladimir Putin through Dmitri Firtash to Rudy Giuliani to Donald Trump. Rudy Giuliani appears to be, for whatever reasons, Mr. Putin’s “handler” for Donald Trump.
The delay also gives time for the various court actions to proceed, particularly regarding Mr. Trump’s past dealings. I think they will show similar cash flowing from Russian organized crime to Mr. Trump and his family for years or decades. I think that will be another count added to the impeachment resolution.
Time works to the advantage of the Democrats here. I think the most significant risk is the actual and ongoing damage that this administration and its GOP Collaborators are doing to America and the western world. I think that damage will continue and grow until even the red-state electorate says “enough is enough”.