Marxist American hero Howard Zinn has penned a nice piece in The Progressive to opine on what we should do this 4th of July. In short: put away your American flags. What has America done this time to draw his ire? Well, nothing in particular – and everything.
To quote:
We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.
We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.
Now, I point out once again that this guy is the origin of the oft-seen quote “dissent is the highest form of patriotism”, which is commonly and quite falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson. I’ll leave the origin of the misattribution to speculation, but I have to wonder:
What is patriotism, to a guy like this?
That you don’t like dissent? That you don’t approve of assertions of allegiance to the human race? Please spell it out, D.
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Happy Fourth of July!
Well, several posters have asked how I define patriotism, or if I see a difference between nationalism and patriotism, so I should probably get to that first.
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To be honest, I hadn’t given much thought to either definition (or the difference between them) until now, but patriotism to me is a rather simple concept, it just means loving your country.
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Loving your country carries with it love and respect for the symbols of your country (e.g. flag), and the principles of your country (e.g. liberty) regardless of how they may have become polluted over the years (e.g. new deal).
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Loving your country does in fact mean that you probably like it more than some other country (or at least draw a distinction!), and more than a theoretical globe-nation. Seems to me that this one-world stuff undercuts patriotism directly by asserting nothing special about this country or that, and we’re all the same, and maybe if you like Zinn its all one big class struggle anyway so who cares about what country you live in. Right? But please, lets not mistake that for patriotism.
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Nationalism to me connotes a slightly more military bent or perhaps a superiority over other nations which entitles us to, e.g., smash them down if we feel like it. Then again those are really only loose connotations that I’m exaggerating for the benefit of those here who think that’s basically where we are today.
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Nationalism and patriotism are fairly similar things, but patriotism is simpler, more pure. Nationalism seems to require juxtaposition against others, which patriotism does not.
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After all that, my points:
– I don’t mind dissent but I don’t like deception (i.e. quote misattribution)
– Zinn is no patriot
– Zinn is anti-American
– These things are self evident from Zinn’s 4th article
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Also as an aside, I totally reject the notion of a one-world government. Governments are nasty beasts, and the smaller, the better.
instead of actually clarifying, for your own edification, the differences between nationalism and patriotism, you are perfectly content with offering your own seat-of-the-connotational pants musings that essentially conflate the two terms into something meaningless, thereby absolving you of any critical self-analysis and any real discussion.
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And that, people, is what’s wrong with America today. Thanks for the object lesson.
I did look at several sources for the definitions of both words/concepts, just to make sure that I was not wildly off the mark. (I’m not) I’m not sure who elses musings you’d rather hear from me but I’m really only comfortable offering my own.
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Here’s wikipedia on patriotism, for your edification:
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Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a ‘fatherland’ (Latin patria < Greek patrida, ???????), by individuals and groups. The ‘fatherland’ (or ‘motherland’) can be a region or a city, but patriotism usually applies to a nation and/or a nation-state. Patriotism covers such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation. Patriotism is closely associated with nationalism, and is often used as a synonym for it. Strictly speaking, nationalism is an ideology – but it often promotes patriotic attitudes as desirable and appropriate. (Both nationalist political movements, and patriotic expression, may be negative towards other people’s ‘fatherland’).
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You, lightiris, have said nothing constructive in this thread. You have offered no debate. You have made no positive assertions, and you have complained acidly but from the vantage of an unstated position. That’s really too bad.
focus your thoughts through something other than a lens of disdain for Howard Zinn. BTW, your disdain for him, apparently, has little to do with what he actually says and more to do with his status as a left-leaning icon. You have zero comment for the actual text of what Zinn says about patriotism, undoubtedly because what he says is fairly inarguable. So much for critical thinking.
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I asked you to explore the difference between nationalism and patriotism because it is clear, based on what you’ve written, that you confuse the two. It appears to me you view your nationalism as patriotic because it feels good to you to support your government. Rather than take a critical view of what your government is doing vis a vis its Constitutional principles and values, you prefer, instead, to cheerlead. That’s nationalism. Nationalism compels you to support your government/country no matter what they are doing because not to do so would be unpatriotic. There’s the rub.
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Now, I don’t doubt that you are probably genuinely patriotic in many respects; however, so far, I’ve not been able to determine with any certainty that you separate the actions of your government from your country’s ideals. Consequently, I would characterize your commentary as purely nationalistic and not at all particularly patriotic. There is a meaningful difference between the two words and the two concepts, despite your faith in Wikipedia and your unwillingness to acknowledge that difference.
From Sunday’s Washington Post, we read the rather frightening paragraph:
Perhaps worrying about Professor Zinn’s alleged irrationalities takes second place even for Republican lawmakers to the President’s irrationalities.
lawmakers express their patriotism more forthrightly.
It appears to me you view your nationalism as patriotic because it feels good to you to support your government.
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Thus spake a big government liberal to a libertarian. Laughable.
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Then again, you still haven’t taken any positions in this thread, so who knows eh?
and why do you care so much about Zinn’s opinions if he;s just an old fringie marxist, as you say?
unfortunately, he seems to exert cast influence on the American left.
is the day the Second Continental Congress signed the Declaration of Independence. John Hancock signed first, his beautiful penmanship and the flourish under his name unmistakable. Any officer of the King, looking for someone to arrest, would have had no trouble knowing who to go for.
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I post the Declaration at my house on 4th of July and read it again. And promise myself to practice being as clear and direct in explaining my stance to the world as they were – and as brave in putting my name out there.
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I hang the flag too, the one with 15 stars, the flag that represented the United States at the time when my house was built. People ask about it, which gets us talking about American history.
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Howard Zinn talks a lot about American history, has written books about it. He obviously cares about it, about this country, passionately.
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What makes someone a patriot?
…that they tend to lie by omission.
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Here is Howard Zinn’s entire comment:
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An Interview With Historian Howard Zinn
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Context is everything.
Well, I guess that answers my question (sort of) about what patriotism means to Zinn. I’m mildly embarassed that I didnt go ahead and read (or recall) his whole quote.
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I don’t see how that makes me a liar though, or a right winger. I said the quote was mistakenly attributed to Jefferson, which is surely true. I also summarized the article that Zinn wrote about the 4th fairly.
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I’d point out to Zinn that his marxist leanings undermine absolutely the founding principles of this country, the most important of which is Liberty.
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I’m mildly embarassed that I didnt go ahead and read (or recall) his whole quote.
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Actually, you should be entirely embarrassed.
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Zinn is quite clear, as Raj has pointed out below, on what patriotism is. You, however, seem to be the one who is confused. So the question to you is:
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My money’s on none.
dropping bombs on anonymous people have been often been cited when he explains the evolution of his philosophies.
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for many, bombing the crap out of the ‘enemy’ would be one of the greatest manifestations of patriotism. but after doing just that, zinn didn’t find the glorious satisfaction in the act that others imagine.
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do you fault him for not feeling the flush of the red, white & blue when the explosions were going off and the limbs were flying?
Kurt Vonnegut, American POW held in Dresden during the egregious Allied carpet bombing in Feb 1945, expressed the same.
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Slaugterhouse Five
I have absolutely no clue whether Howard Zinn would refer to himself as a “Marxist” or “Communist.” If you’ve actually read his works or heard interviews of him, then you certainly know that he’s a peace-loving progressive.
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What Zinn is trying to say is that all people should realize the common bonds of people all over the world, that national boundaries did not always exist, and that if we did so, this might lead to a future with less animosity between nations and peoples.
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Isn’t that obviuos, demolisher?