Stop framing the discussion as “raising taxes”.
Start talking about fundamental fairness and the American Dream being destroyed by greedy banksters and a rapacious elite.
Go to What will kill the American Dream, in hard numbers
It is not the Chinese killing the American Dream.
It is the concentration of wealth in an elite that considers itself a separate tribe and that the rest of us are expendable.
Reversing this concentration is required for good public education, repairing the infrastructure and our children’s future.
Now, what is the best way to de-concentrate wealth and support the American Dream, the American Way, and avoid making a lifetime as indentured servants to that greedy elite the future of our kids and grand kids? Who is willing to step up for that real discussion and stop being distracted by the media?
neilsagan says
The economy is in a pretty bad cycle for government revenue. 10+% unemployment must be exacerbating gov revenue shortfall. It would be interesting to see state gov revenues charted over the last three years.
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p>I’d advocate temporary tax surcharge that sunsets after two years to keep our government working and essential social services but I would approach that issue separately from the state’s tax policy when the economy isn’t in crisis. By all appearances we are not going back to the economy we had. Tax policy will have to follow the new reality.
peter-porcupine says
judy-meredith says
Deb,it ain’t that easy. I wish it was.
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p>We in ONE Massachusetts have been learning from the Demos Center for Public Works. Demos’ research teaches us that community “opinion leaders” (that’s you) who can communicate effectively about the importance of a fairly and adequately funded government can indeed engage and move friends, neighbors and whole communities into public education campaigns that build public support for new taxes.
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p>The Demos’ research has demonstrated that the way that we talk about these issues, the images we use, about government itself, can dramatically change the conversation and help to rebuild people’s confidence in what we can accomplish together through our government.
from our ONE Mass website:
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p>
johnd says
I don’t like the “tax the rich” impulse which I hear lately for every problem we have, both on a state level and on a federal level. What is needed is more of a systemic change which not only fixes today’s problem but builds for future avoidance of revenue fluctuations.
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p>What have we done before to fix problems like this? Weld?
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p>I’ve been squawking about various people in State government making far too much money and while I am not doing “any” real analysis I do think there’s a signal in that data showing things are out of whack. We should do a real analysis to see if state workers are overpaid for their positions… or not. Remember the result of overpaying is you have less people working.
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p>Another “possibility” of this is the Stimulus bill doing the same thing. Back in July the Republican members of the House tried to suspend the “prevailing wage” law in MA concerning any Stimulus spending which was rejected. Some estimates say we are paying 30%+ more money for people due to prevailing wages. My suggestion would not be to cut that 30% out but to hire 30% more MA residents to do the work.
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p>I think there should be some “bi-partisan” reviews of our spending and how our taxes are collected to create a long term fix to our financial problems as opposed to cutting DMR and “tax the rich” quick fixes.
liveandletlive says
Wasn’t it you who proclaimed months ago that you earn about $50,000 tax free selling college textbooks online. I think if people stopped cheating on their taxes, there would also be less of a need for constant tax increases. Maybe you could help us out there.
johnd says
is probably staggering. Yard sales, Ebay sales, people selling their clothing… I would support a move by the government to start getting serious about taxing all sales like mine. Until then I’ll consider it like driving 70 MPH on the MassPike, which is over the speed limit but ignored by the authorities.
liveandletlive says
far different from driving 70MPH on the MassPike. It is your responsibility to report profits on your tax returns. I’m not going to complain about $500-$1000 dollars in profits from the sale of used goods, but really,
$35,000-$45,000. I’m sure there are many people that do this. If they would stop and report their earning as they are suppose to, then there would be less need for tax increases for honest taxpayers.
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p>Ebay could help by reporting sales to the government. There was a day when tips were “tax free”, not because it was legal to not report, but because waiters/waitresses could greatly underreport their tips without consequences. Now, waiters/waitress are automatically tax on 8% of their total sales (last I heard). The restaurants must count these earnings as part of total wages and pay their SS/Medic portion on it.
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p>Time to tax the small businesses running a one man/woman show on the internet.
christopher says
As far as I’m concerned those are a gift and really nobody’s business but the patron’s and the server’s. By the same token I also don’t like that in some jurisdictions restaurants have different minimum wage requirements on the grounds that the difference will be made up in tips. For that matter I resent that a certain percentage has become expected when they should be completely voluntary. I tip 15-18% because I feel I’m “supposed to” rather than as a compliment for going above and beyond which is what I thought they were for. Tips should be completely off the books for all concerned, IMO.
liveandletlive says
It’s not the law that one must tip, so therefore, I think it is completely wrong to predetermine the amount a waiter/waitress is suppose to make and then tax them on it. There are times, when they don’t even make that much. And then on top of that, business are allowed to pay less than minimum wage because of tips. Now if this isn’t trying to keep people down at the lower end of the wage scale I don’t know what is.
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p>We can have compassion for the wealthy, and give them their due because they are smart, risk taking, and sacrificing, yet the hard working waiter/waitress gets their pay cut and hypothetical tips taxed because they aren’t smart, don’t take risks, and don’t sacrifice a damn thing.
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p>This is why I get so angry over the whole thing. While some are trying to imply envy as the reason behind wanting to tax the wealthy, it has nothing to do with that. It’s about fairness, as Amberpaw so aptly put it.
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p>So if the government can figure out a way to tax tips, then they can figure out a way to tax Ebay income, and wealthy individuals who have found ways to get around paying their taxes as they should, instead of always turning to the middle class to make up the gap.
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p>They can also figure out a way to make it the law that waiters/waitress be paid at least minimum wage from their employers. Then they can use those hard earned taxed tips to invest in their own future, and create their own wealth.
peter-porcupine says
lightiris says
It’s people like JohnD who complain about the freeloaders who sponge off the federal government, the so-called “welfare queens” of the 90s, but it’s actually people like JohnD that you and I support through paying our fair share of taxes.
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p>I think that makes JohnD the equivalent of a Welfare King. Congatulations, JohnD! Honest taxpayers are subsidizing your lifestyle through your manipulation of tax code. Oh, the politically incorrect prizes I could offer you….. In the market for a Town Car? Howza bout a pair of Huggy Bear platform shoes?
peter-porcupine says
I think John’s misdemeanor pales next to the perfectly legal trust and off-shore arrangements that the truly rich can make in response to ‘tax the rich’ schemes (which is why they fail, as the intended targets can afford to stay moving, leaving the buckshot to land upon the middle class which doesn’t have the money to scurry away).
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p>PROVISO – I do NOT approve of tax evasion by any income level – I merely seek to remain reality-based, and describe what is.
christopher says
That way we won’t have to worry about where the money is being stored. If you buy it here, you pay for it here – period.
judy-meredith says
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p>This from someone (me) who, after making her Capuano calls, rewarded herself by getting on the internet to spend entirely too much on clothes from JJill and didn’t have to feel guilty about evading taxes because individual articles of clothing under $175 are exempt from the sales tax.
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p>Spouse,in a feeble attack on my “extravagance”, tried to justify his comparable expenses involved in winterizing his boat by saying at least he contributed to the economy by happily paying a sales tax.
johnd says
we owe you big time. “Where’s my paycheck (welfare check)?”
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p>But I need some help with my math since I paid a fat 6 figure check to the IRS last year for taxes which I now find out from you was probably not right. Can you help out?
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p>No Town car but I have been looking at a used DeVille…
liveandletlive says
understand a little more about your tax responsibilites.
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p>
christopher says
…how we get to the point where taxes are seen as good. Biden caught flak during the campaign when he said paying taxes was patriotic and in countries like Sweden that does seem to be the prevalent view. In the Merrimack Valley people shop in NH to avoid contributing to their own state, but somehow still expect the services to be there.
billxi says
Does that name ring a bell?
demolisher says
If you think the American dream is about getting everything you need handed to you, or maybe about preventing people from getting rich. You can’t be doing that bad if no one is allowed to be rich, right?
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p>On the other hand, if you think it is about class mobility, and the ability to make it on your own without the government taking 50%+ of what you make (thereby preventing you from the dream) then you think the main threat is.. well.. progressives.
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p>Some time, for fun, pick up Forbes and check out how many of the country’s richest people started out rich (or didn’t)
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p>Sometimes its hard to think that the progressive philosophy isn’t based at least partly on green, green envy.
christopher says
For me education, health care, equality under the law, and emergency services should pretty much be handed to you. Once you get those taken care of you’re in pretty good shape to work for the rest of it. Speaking for myself, I’m not jealous of the super-rich; in fact I’m not sure what I would do with all that money.
liveandletlive says
is that we already pay taxes. It’s not as if we are not taxed at all and you are trying to convince middle class people that they should be taxed. We are already taxed. ON EVERYTHING. Homes, cars, gas, income, phone service, retail products. I don’t get why people are so protective of the tax cuts for the wealthy, but yet so willing to tax
middle class household budgets. I must be missing something.
judy-meredith says
Tax the Rich? Is it really fair? Consider these words from the tindog coffee house blog
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p>
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p>Others point out that the rich get rich because our government’s public systems – which our taxes create and sustain – empowers wealth in myriad ways:
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p>The legal system protects intellectual property and contracts.
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p>The public infrastructure facilitates the movement of goods and services.
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p>The tax-supported financial systems enable to access capital markets.
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p>Employees are educated in public schools and universities.
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p>Tax-funded research develops innovations and new technology.
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p>Trade laws protect the sale of products abroad.
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p>Finally, as Warren Buffet famously observed, he likely couldn’t have achieved his financial success had he been born in Bangladesh instead of the United States, because Bangladesh had no banking system and no stock market.
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p>The wealthy have made greater use of the common “goods” of our society – they have been empowered by them in creating their wealth – and thus they have a greater obligation to sustain them.
(Adapted/summarized from Hidden Truths of Progressive Taxes, Lakoff & Budner
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p>My conclusion is a balanced tax system is progressive, because higher-income taxpayers can afford to pay a greater share of their income than lower-income taxpayers.
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p>My wealthy friends, of whom I have a few, argue that by buying more luxury goods (and paying more sales tax) and investing in job creating industries so lower wage workers could pay more income tax is a better way to balance our tax structure. I tell them that I think that might be true as long as they don’t unbalance it again with all kinds of tax avoidance activities like investing in tax shelters and looking for tax credits for creating those jobs.
johnd says
How do you propose we actually implement this Amber?
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p>Right now housing prices are at all time lows. The bottom of the market hasn’t even been hit according to many experts and housing prices contribute heavily to driving the economy. I know of many people who are bargain hunting for houses right now. If they get these homes at historic lows and the economy recovers, they will likely make a killing. Isn’t this the way it should work. Why do you want to penalize these people for making a bunch of money? And… if you set up a system so people taking this risk will bear an unfair burden of taxes, then why should they invest? They could simply watch the housing prices go down and not help. Even people like Obama would be frightened without the hope that investors will be putting their capital back into housing (or the market, or venture capital…) because this is what will drive the economy.
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p>You seem to want to penalize the people who will help the economy recover.
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p>I also hear a lot of “anger” directed at these top 20% that own 84.5% of everything. Why? Are they evil? I don’t know the distribution but there are plenty of Democrats (Deval, Deceased Ted Kennedy, Goerge Soros and so many more) as well as Republicans and many of them are extremely charitable with their wealth.
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p>How do you propose you “get” their wealth and redistribute it to the masses?
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p>I’ve worked in sales my whole life and at one juncture, the management of the company I worked considered “pooling” the quota each sales person had and then equally distributing commission to each sales person when “any” sale came in. We were calling it the “communist commission plan”. They never implemented it because they knew half the sales people would be busting their asses but the other half would get “free commissions”.
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p>How do you propose we fix the imbalance?
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p>
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p>After this financial crisis, expect the top 1% and the top 20% to own even more. With prices so depressed, the bargain hunters will do well. How many of them bought Bank of America at $3/share (hit $18/share a few weeks ago)?
christopher says
What’s evil is greed and trampling others. For example, Bill Gates is super-rich, but you don’t hear a lot of complaining about what he makes. It is wrong for the likes of AIG to pay their executives outrageously even when they’re not doing well AND relying on taxpayer bailouts. It is wrong for CEOs of oil companies to be sitting on huge profits while allowing gas prices to rise. It is wrong for Wal-Mart execs to be making millions while their sales associates are making just this side of minimum wage. If we taxed sales rather than income (with MA exemptions) that would presumably be progressive because the rich by definition have more disposible income and we wouldn’t worry about income source of “real job” vs. other source, such as yard sales and pawning textbooks like you mentioned upthread. At the same time the coersion is taken out since you don’t have to make most purchases. That being said, we used to tax the rich at much higher rates, but that didn’t seem to put a damper on either investing or results. Even though I make little enough that I get tax refunds usually I’d still rather have your income and tax burden than mine.
johnd says
Large wealth and incomes are not evil. Good we agree.
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p>Greed? Well, what is greed? The common definition seems to be
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p>
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p>Which sounds like anyone with a lot of wealth (Bill Gates) is greedy… or does he “need” all those billions?
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p>AIG, I wish they had failed too. I was not a big supporter of “too big to fail” and wanted the big banks, AIG and the automakers to go bankrupt! What I disagree with is this simplistic view from people that just because any business is doing poorly in total means that nobody can do well. The DJIA has gone from 6500 to over 10,000 so you can expect that a lot of Wall St stock market related people are going to make huge bonuses and God love them all. That’s how it works. GM could be sucking wind for business but if Lucky Larry sells 25 Cadillacs this month he’ll make a big commission check.
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p>Oil companies making profits… let’s hear a big YAHOO from 401K owners around the country owning Exxon… stocks. Wal-Mart execs making millions in profits, same answer on the stock owners AND lots of envy from all the companies in the same business who couldn’t compete and are now OUT OF BUSINESS!
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p>Taxing sales… I’d love a VAT. When do we start the VAT and drop income taxes?
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p>If you want to swap income burdens with me, go work your ass of for 35 years, raise a family and call me. Spread the word to the rest of your generation that you work for things in this world and stop the attitude of having everything handed to you (or redistributed to you).
somervilletom says
Bill Gates is absolutely the wrong — perhaps even the worst — example to use of a wealthy person who is not greedy and who doesn’t trample others.
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p>Bill Gates was one of the most rapacious and despicable capitalist villains of all time. The amount he has donated in his recent philanthropy is a trivial and microscopically thin veneer on the blood money he accumulated during his long and horrific march of destruction — and even that appears to be motivated by a combination of tax policy and his belated recognition of his own mortality. Bill Gates is the still-living epitome of “greed and trampling others.” The life arcs of Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller come to mind — except that Bill Gates makes them look like two-bit downtown con-men by comparison.
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p>In my view, Bill Gates exemplifies the population that should be targeted by an enlightened tax policy. His wealth — not his income — should be heavily taxed upon its transfer to his progeny.
johnd says
John D. Rockefeller
christopher says
I hope you have some citations to back up a rant like that!
somervilletom says
I have an even better source — first-hand experience. I was there. I was in the industry. I know. Talk to Steve Jobs (I have). Talk to Mitchell Kapor (I have). Talk to Unix and Sun pioneer Bill Joy (I have). I note that Steve Jobs, in particular, is among the most competitive personalities this industry has made famous — and Mitchell Kapor is not far behind (although in a very different way). None of these highly competitive and very successful capitalists demonstrate the sheer joy of screwing people that always characterized Bill Gates.
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p>On the other hand, I call your attention to several external sources, including:
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p>
I call your attention to the ample citations including in this report.
I worked first-hand with Mitchell Kapor (founder of Lotus) for several years during this period, and I have very good evidence that the first item is real — not surprisingly, the developers at Lotus were well aware of this.
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p>I can think of no individual in our time — and perhaps in history — that better illustrates “greed and trampling others” in the pursuit of personal wealth, and who did so — by all accounts — with relish and great personal pleasure.
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p>I’m sorry to play the age care here, Christopher, but I was there. I know.
somervilletom says
Too much focus on Martha Coakley and Mike Capuano, I guess. Muscle memory and all that.
demolisher says
I agree that Microsoft is evil, although that last quote seems like BS.
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p>In any case, if you find something illegal, unethical or unfair, then go after that. You give the government power to come get peoples wealth (based on what, exactly?) and it will never stop.
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p>Like Zombies. Government zombies will take all they can and always need more. There is no limit to the greed of the federal government. Once you knock down the rich, you are certainly next.
somervilletom says
There is one population that has already demonstrated that it “will take all it can, and always need more” — the truly wealthy. Bill Gates is the poster boy for this behavior.
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p>Similarly, a more accurate statement of current events and recent history is that “there is no limit to the greed of the already wealthy.”
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p>Your response strikes me as projection, rather than reality.
demolisher says
First off, bad as Microsoft is, Gates never took anyone’s money by force. Only the government does that. You don’t like microsoft, don’t buy it. I don’t.
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p>The government, on the other hand, takes nearly 30% of our GDP, EVERY YEAR, and spends far more than that.
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p>Think about that for a minute.
somervilletom says
Who do you think wrote MS-DOS? Do you know anything about how Bill Gates acquired his fortune?
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p>You are mouthing platitudes and bumper-stickers and ignoring facts. I suspect that you don’t even know who Gary Kildall was — I encourage you to find out.
johnd says
but that we had to spend it wisely. I showed a few examples of misuse and execssive salaries… But people still want to come back to raise more taxes (BMGers defending cushy political state jobs). What you don’t understand it the regular folks don’t trust government to spend their hard earned tax dollars. They waste dollar after dollar.
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p>Then we talked about the Stimulus bill costing $235K/job and how INSANE that was (of course many here defended it). But that number might have been wrong since now we can’t even believe the number of jobs created/saved.
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p>
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p>At this rate we will have paid $500K/job. But there was the thought about the benefit to our infrastructure. So let me thank Obama right now for the new mileage markers on the highways. I can count the tenths of a mile as I wait in traffic burning gas and increasing my carbon footprint.
amberpaw says
And one of the results of good government is merit-based opportunity, rather than a stratified caste and class system. The quote above about Warren Buffet is a fine example.
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p>Some could say the Civil War in this country was a war between slave labor and free labor, no matter how imperfect the working conditions for free labor were, some found ways to better themselves in a way no slave could do.
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p>My concern is that the increasing concentration of wealth removes those opportunities for self betterment and looks more and more like permanent stratefication.
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p>Further, if the decent living wage jobs all morph into basic minimum wage no-opportunity to better oneself jobs – what I now call “Hyatt-ification”, then given a fairly short time, the American economy will look more and more like a third world economy because there will be no more middle class consumers.
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p>John – is THAT what you want?
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p>Personally, I would have designed a very different kind of stimulus, with no bailout of AIG, frankly and no bonuses allowed at any firm that did receive bailout funds…the Bush bailout that Obama inherited has been pure profit for the banksters and Neobarons – I agree I see little benefit on the ground.
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p>Better to have “bailed out” stalled building projects, from the Filene’s Hole in Boston, to the Symmes Debacle in Arlington with construction funding leading to immediate jobs and a healthy tax base then “Bail the Bozos” and a “Cash for Banker-clunkers” program.
seascraper says
It may be hard to believe, but at one time the Democratic party was the party of tax cuts. The Republican party was the party of balanced budgets and old money. The Democrats represented the little guy trying to get ahead.
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p>The way to attack the concentration of wealth is by mobility in the upper-middle class. The only way to break up lazy, monopolistic businesses is by competition from below.
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p>Unfortunately the Democratic party of today believes that the upper-middle class is the enemy. The old money elites and the established super-rich have enlisted Democratic voters to aid in their attack on the suburban middle class with high taxes, high energy costs and financial practices which ensure high unemployment. They do this to destroy the only social competition to the upper class.
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p>Democratic activists are useful idiots in this process. While the super-rich like John Kerry are making it, Democratic activists are going after the people holding garage sales. Do you imagine Bill Gates, Warren Buffet or John Kerry will ever pay a dime in estate taxes?
somervilletom says
I enthusiastically agree with how you framed this question.
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p>Most individuals have no conception of how concentrated wealth already is in today’s America. Our government, our public education systems, and even our “liberal” media go to great lengths to keep us that way — there is a very good reason why, for example, median household wealth is reported.
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p>The actual wealth distribution of the top quintile is enormously enlightening — so much so that a log scale is required to even plot the wealth of the top 1% on the same page as the rest.
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p>We progressives will, in my opinion, do well to focus rather less on income and rather more on wealth. The primary effect of high marginal income tax rates is to make it more difficult for newcomers to enter the hallowed ranks of the truly wealthy. Most voters don’t understand even the basic math of what happens when residual income — income from investments — exceeds personal consumption. Once that happens, “income” — wages and tips, for instance — no longer matters. A wealthy individual borrows money from one account and invests it in a vacation property, which proceeds to appreciate. There’s no tax event, and that individual’s personal wealth continues to appreciate with the new property. Most voters don’t know this because our schools don’t teach it — they don’t teach the economics, they don’t teach the business impact, and they don’t teach the math. The result is an electorate easily manipulated — by all sides of the political spectrum. How do you explain the facts to an audience that doesn’t understand the difference between “median” and “average” household wealth (never mind the difference between “million”, “billion” and “trillion” — and I suspect the teachers among us know too many high school students who fall into this category).
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p>The actual outcome of balancing the federal budget or, worse, paying off the national debt is a massive transfer of wealth from those who can least afford it to the those who are already wealthy. The government balances its budget by cutting services — services that are invariably provided to the middle and working classes. The beneficiaries are T-Bill holders. Very few working mothers hold T-bills.
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p>As much as I admire Bill Clinton — and I do — his economic success was accomplished on the backs of the working and middle classes. We see this played out here and now in Massachusetts in our collapsing transportation infrastructure, our failing healthcare system, our failing public education system, and our already-shredded safety net for our least fortunate people. These are all symptoms of removing vital government services from 95% of our population, to advance the economic interests of the top 5%.
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p>All while politicians of both parties clamor for further reductions in taxes and further reductions in government spending.
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p>As I elaborated in another comment, increasing the effective tax rate on generational transfer of accumulated wealth by only FOUR PERCENT will solve the ten billion dollar “crisis” facing Massachusetts in the FY10 state budget. Our “progressive” leaders keep this “off the table.”
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p>We have the resources we need in Massachusetts. We have ample wealth in Massachusetts. The question is whether we have the courage to collect it.
peter-porcupine says
Now THAT is some slick obfuscation!
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p>But as the generation with the wealth transfers its acumulation, it increasingly does so through a Florida probate court. Because they can afford to establish that dual residency.
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p>So it’s only the kids of the fireman from Dorchester that bought a condo on Cape for $40,000 that wind up actually paying that extra 4 percent – since the wealth you were AIMING at changes hands in Florida without ever leaving the state boundaries.
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p>Hey, PRESTO!
somervilletom says
The phrase (“Intergenerational wealth transfer”) is from the Boston College Center on Wealth and Philanthropy. The specifics are in “ Boston Foundation forum explores local impact of trillion-dollar wealth transfer, that I linked in my comment here last month.
johnd says
Were the Kennedy’s greedy? Are they?
peter-porcupine says
To his credit, Sen. Kennedy did not – his estate and the winding up of his trusts (as the final surviving child) are being probated here as far as I know.
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p>I confess, I DID wonder.
amberpaw says
Ted Kennedy didn’t have to work. He didn’t have to care. He found meaning in public service, and as far as I can tell, never stopped learning and growing.
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p>I wonder, would Ted Kennedy have cut dentures from MassHealth? This Friday’s buried set of 9C cuts from the Patrick administration is, once again, all cuts to the most vulnerable and defenseless. No more dentures for Grannie
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p>And at the same time, a 9 million walkover bridge at Patriot Place? I admit, I don’t get this and I am troubled. Kraft’s golden bridge
johnd says
when she passed away. Why do we give so many people a pass (like Bill gates because of his late-in-life philanthropy)? Are rich people able to “buy off” their badness?
lodger says
http://vps28478.inmotionhosting.com/~bluema24/d…
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p>but I don’t think I count.
johnd says
Thanks for being a lone voice about a question which absolutely should have been asked… and answered.
huh says
Why didn’t you ask or answer?
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p>BrooklineTom at least answered.
kbusch says
“We” are are not required to condemn on schedule. Could you please stop that making that boneheaded demand?
johnd says
I still believe the “silent approval” conducted by people (including BMG) is up for debate. I particularly think it becomes legitimate when the light is focused on an issue and the silence continues.
huh says
facts aren’t needed and logic is irrelevant. So what?
kbusch says
To remain obtuse.
johnd says
otherwise go someplace else to complain about blogger’s style which you don’t like. You are getting boring KBusch.
huh says
To quote you, “get over it.” Or, better, provide facts and arguments instead of tirades and aspersions.
kbusch says
You’re approaching commentary as if it has some kind of world historical significance. As if condemnations we make here affect something. As if things we propose have any effect on the real world.
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p>They don’t.
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p>Hence, my pushback on the regularly scheduled condemnations, on your saying things for the non-existent record, and on your berating people for not playing governor-for-a-day.
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p>*
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p>I’m worried that you find me boring? Really? I thought I cared more about what the Anti-Obtuse Faction thought.